On The Fan Isaac Ropp just said

Good point. You actually answered the debate of the whole thread......we get a Kawhi or a Lebron and Ropp is wrong, because we could win with Dame and CJ starting, just like Cleveland won with Kyrie and JR Smith. Both were considered horrible defenders (as was KLove) before joining Lebron.

Surround CJ and Dame with good players and let's see what happens.

 

Actually, we would have to surround a REALLY good player with Dame and CJ, and not the other way around. I think my point is that neither Dame or CJ is really good enough to be the #1 option on a championship team.

 

Yup dame and Cj imo are more second option on a championship team. That's just how hard it is to win a title in the NBA unfortunately

 

If Aldridge wasn't such a boner, he could have been top 5. He could have been the catalyst for a championship. He was such a weak minded fool that it didn't come to pass, but the tools were there.

 

Id toss the mavs in that mix as well when they won with Dirk, the only true MVP caliber player on that team, but I don't think he was a top 5.

 

Fine but that doesn't mean that either one of them has to be traded unless it is for the #1 option. It won't accomplish anything.
Either way we are missing a big piece. Both are good players and like playing in Portland. One would think that those two qualities would be easy to find...but it's not. So keep them both and find the missing pieces. Butler is a very good player as well, but trading CJ for him really does not accomplish much IMO. (Adding him would be nice though!)

 

CJ is getting almost 24ppg in nearly 50/40/90 shooting. That's an elite level offensive option, and I think that's good enough to be #1 on a championship team.

When Lillards on, he's good enough as well. The probably is everything else.

We added one two way player and improved a good deal. Watch what happens if we add a couple more.

The guy I want to pursue this offseason is Middleton. If you have him, a good shooting Aminu, and improving Nurkic, then that's a contending team.

 

To your point I think Roy was as close as we've come to having THAT guy in the last 10-15 years. Love dame and his leadership but we need a guy who can come in and maybe be ok with not being the team leader but clearly the best player on both ends of the floor. Butler I think fits that mold, he's a bit of an enigma like rondo and needs a situation where he isnt looked to, to establish a culture, but he can be a top-5 player. If we can get him for crabbe and 3 firsts or something you do it without question. When CJ is in the conversation I get a lot more skeptical of the deal but you have to look long and hard at your options. One thing I'm fairly confident in is that neither dame or cj could carry us to a chip as the no 1 for the simple reason that they do not play any defense.

 

Curry is a decent defender at times but he would go long stretches without exerting any energy on D. Dame had some monster games against him the year they won it all.

The problem I am having is that everyone looks at the lack of success and immediately attributes it to Dame and CJ.
I am not yet convinced that the two of them are the problem. And I won't be convinced until the rest of the roster is better. So unless we are getting back a super star in return I would prefer to play it out and build around them. What do we really have to lose by waiting?

 

Why not? When DAL won in 2011, Dirk was 32, was 10th in the league in scoring at 23.0 ppg, a very weak rebounder and a poor defender.

Nobody else on that team averaged more than 15.8 ppg. They simply surrounded a top 10 offensive player with the right role players. Kidd, Chandler, Terry, Marion, Caron Butler were all great role players, but none of them were all stars, let alone superstars, at that point in their careers. Hell, DeShawn Stevenson started 54 games for them that year and only averaged 5.3 ppg.

I think Chandler was the key. His defense and rebounding made up for Dirk's weaknesses in those areas.

Is Nurk our Chandler (not this year, but moving forward)?

BNM

 

OB says hello.....

 

He could have got paid more money and had dame and an emerging Cj. All we would need is his current 18 and 7 with solid defense

 

My biggest issue with trading CJ or Lillard for Butler is it seems like a move, just to make a move.
Yes Butler is better defensively by a good margin.
But CJ or Lillard are better offensively by a good margin.
I'm against Portland moving CJ or Lillard if it's basically a lateral move.
And frankly... for everything Portland would gain defensively, they'd lose it on the offensive end regardless who they moved.
Not to mention looking at the big picture, Portland holds all the cards in terms of contract for Lillard & CJ.
So it doesn't make sense to make a move just to make one.

Now if Portland can acquire Butler without CJ/Lillard being involved.. I'm all for it.

 

Remember when it was defence that won games? Is that gone now?

 

I guess it depends on you listen to. Bill Walton said over and over all season that it comes down to who can best score. I am sure most would argue you need both. But it you are asking which side of the ball is more improtant, I agree with Bill.
Offensive players win games in crunch time.

 

Dirk was special during the playoffs

 

Yep, but it proves it only take one great offensive player to get hot at the right time to win it all - if he's surrounded by the right supporting cast. I still think Chandler was the key to that DAL championship team. They foolishly traded him away the following December for a trade exception to clear cap space to make a run at Dwight Howard.

BNM

 

Dame and CJ get the credit for the moderate success last year and the lack thereof this year. We've yet to see them even be average defenders let alone the top-10 defense you need to win in the playoffs. Even with eventual additions and improvements to the roster these guys are turnstyles to most competent backcourts in the NBA these are facts. It is the same with Curry (he's a liability on the defensive side), it's ok to have one guy like that play major minutes but 2+ and you have what you see with the blazers a bottom third defensive team. It is fair to say that these two together will not be able to cut it defensively, because to date they haven't been. It's that simple.

 

I guess in today's NBA (specially in regular season) you could make a good case that offense wins over defense. However I still think when it comes to the playoffs defense wins over offense.

 

So how do you explain Kyrie and JR winning it all. They were ridiculed their whole career for their pathetic defense.