<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KobeBryant_24 @ Mar 19 2007, 09:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maybe. The main point I was trying to make was Shaq was the best player in the dynasty, but would not of won any titles without Kobe</div>It matters who is the leader though. You probably wouldn't have won it either if not for a couple role players. Like I said, take the 2nd option away from any team and you probably won't win, but Shaq was the most important part of those teams and the leader.
MJ is easily the best, and yes, Kobe is no where near Jordan. Kobe only won a title when Shaq was with him. Michael carried his team to a title 6 times. Jordan is the second best player of all time (after Wilt)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (costazatheassman @ Mar 19 2007, 09:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MJ is easily the best, and yes, Kobe is no where near Jordan. Kobe only won a title when Shaq was with him. Michael carried his team to a title 6 times. Jordan is the second best player of all time (after Wilt)</div>Read the whole thread before you just make a statement.Kobe is nowhere near Michael? If you put Kobe in MJ's place with the same team...same results. I mean, besides defensively, and Kobe is still a great defender, in what way is MJ a better player in Kobe. Talent wise? Clutch? Leadership? You can always say that MJ was able to carry his team on his own and Kobe is not able on his own like Michael but people need to realize that MJ had a much better supporting cast. Lamar Odom is no Scottie Pippen and Smush Parker is no Ron Harper and Turiaf is not Rodman. 1 one 1 I firmly believe Kobe is on the same plataue* as MJ but MJ has still always had the better team. Notice I am not putting Kobe's 3 rings as leverage because he did have Shaq. Shaq might not have won without Kobe but Kobe would not won without Shaq at the time either.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Mar 20 2007, 12:08 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He deserved it last year. You could make the argument that they only had 45 wins but even Jordan won MVP on a team that won 50 wins and was on a much more talented team.</div>He didn't win it though did he?
[quote name='LakersFan247' post='313387' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:13 AM']Not at all. Shaq is in a whole different era. Wilt was alot more dominant than Shaq. In his prime, Shaq was the most dominant big man in the game but Wilt in general was more talented. His ability to make freethrows, run the floor, and coexist with teammates makes him the better player. Wilt would be just as dominant if not more than Shaq in today's era because of his ability to knock down freethrows leading to no "hack-a-shaq"[/quote]Wilt=great free throw shooter?He was like 40 percent from the line, free throw shooting was his weakness.From what I know, the only teammate Shaq didn't coexist with was Kobe Bryant, and really during those first two championships Kobe didn't coexist with anybody because he was a private person, and some of his teammates actually hated him.[quote name='LakersFan247' post='313389' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:16 AM']He started passing more once the playoffs started. (before the award was passed out) the whole series last season would have given the MVP to Kobe if the Lakers won and give it to Nash is Pheonix won. Pheonix won. They clearly had a better team. The Lakers were inexperienced and young and had no playoff experience together before yet still took Pheonix to game 7 because of Kobe's leadership. Dirk and LeBron were both aheard of him but I don't believe deserved it more. This is mainly why I hate that the media votes for mvp and not players and coaches etc.[/quote]Why? Lebron is a better all around player and Dirk led his team to the NBA Finals with a high scoring and rebounding total. Kobe was a ballhog, you never said anything about him not being that in the season did you?[quote name='KobeBryant_24' post='313406' date='Mar 20 2007, 12:43 AM']I never argue the fact that Shaq was the better player AT THE TIME. But we simply would not of won any titles without Kobe. Kind of like the Lakers aren't a contending team without Lamar Odom.[/quote]The first title, Yeah.Glen Rice was a 15 pppg scorer, He was the X-factor for that teamplus they had a deep benchso Yeah, I think they would of won as much championships without Kobe[quote name='LakersFan247' post='313419' date='Mar 20 2007, 01:03 AM']Read the whole thread before you just make a statement.Kobe is nowhere near Michael? If you put Kobe in MJ's place with the same team...same results. I mean, besides defensively, and Kobe is still a great defender, in what way is MJ a better player in Kobe. Talent wise? Clutch? Leadership? You can always say that MJ was able to carry his team on his own and Kobe is not able on his own like Michael but people need to realize that MJ had a much better supporting cast. Lamar Odom is no Scottie Pippen and Smush Parker is no Ron Harper and Turiaf is not Rodman. 1 one 1 I firmly believe Kobe is on the same plataue* as MJ but MJ has still always had the better team. Notice I am not putting Kobe's 3 rings as leverage because he did have Shaq. Shaq might not have won without Kobe but Kobe would not won without Shaq at the time either.[/quote]lol, MJ was putting up 32 ppg on the better team, and yes, HE WAS PASSING THE BALL. 5 assists, 6 rebounds a game in his career. 2 steals a game. Good FT shooter, from what I saw like 87 percent. Oh, and listen to this one, He only played 38 minutes a game. So he didn't play the whole game like Wilt, or Kobe. M.J. has...more blocks a game, more steals a game, more points a game, more assists per game, more rebounds per game, Kobe turns the ball over more, and after all of that you STILL say Kobe is as good as him?
Im a huge Laker fan and I would never say Kobe is as good as MJ although he still has alot of time so theres a chance he can be one day but right now no. It's amazing how everything, everyone in this world is critised as Overrated by someone no matter how good they are at what they do. No matter how good that movie does at the box office, Theres always someone out there who will call that player, Movie, thing, whatever overrated. But I guess thats just how the world is.
[quote name='grizz101' post='313463' date='Mar 20 2007, 05:04 AM']Wilt=great free throw shooter?He was like 40 percent from the line, free throw shooting was his weakness.From what I know, the only teammate Shaq didn't coexist with was Kobe Bryant, and really during those first two championships Kobe didn't coexist with anybody because he was a private person, and some of his teammates actually hated him.[/quote]Penny Hardaway? Eddie Jones?(when he was a Laker) Nick Van Exel? Kobe is not the only one.[quote name='grizz101' post='313464' date='Mar 20 2007, 05:07 AM']Why? Lebron is a better all around player and Dirk led his team to the NBA Finals with a high scoring and rebounding total. Kobe was a ballhog, you never said anything about him not being that in the season did you?[/quote]Did you even watch the Lakers in the playoffs at all? Kobe was basically what he has been doing this season. Passing the ball alot more. If that series showed anything about Kobe it's that he changed his game for the better of the team. There were games when Kobe only scored like 24 points and we won because Kobe was able to distribute more.EDIT: and if you believe LeBron is a better player than Kobe you are an ignorant fool.[quote name='grizz101' post='313468' date='Mar 20 2007, 05:29 AM']The first title, Yeah.Glen Rice was a 15 pppg scorer, He was the X-factor for that teamplus they had a deep benchso Yeah, I think they would of won as much championships without Kobe[/quote]Oh yeah it was all Glen Rice.... Please. So we would have still won the championship without Kobe's heroics against the Pacers in the finals when Shaq fouled out and Kobe made multiple clutch threes and mid range jumpers to go along with some nice post moves. Kobe was unstoppable. Glen Rice might have been a big part of the team that year but he was still nothing but a cancer. Regardless, look at 2001 instead off 2000. Kobe was just as big a part of the team as Shaq was.[quote name='grizz101' post='313471' date='Mar 20 2007, 05:37 AM']lol, MJ was putting up 32 ppg on the better team, and yes, HE WAS PASSING THE BALL. 5 assists, 6 rebounds a game in his career. 2 steals a game. Good FT shooter, from what I saw like 87 percent. Oh, and listen to this one, He only played 38 minutes a game. So he didn't play the whole game like Wilt, or Kobe. M.J. has...more blocks a game, more steals a game, more points a game, more assists per game, more rebounds per game, Kobe turns the ball over more, and after all of that you STILL say Kobe is as good as him?[/quote]Holy sh*t. Did you watch a game of Kobe this year or last year? First of all, Kobe averaged 35 ppg and 5 assists last season. Kobe is a good rebounder but only does when the team needs it. (like when Odom and Kwame went out) Or look at this season:30 ppg5.70 rebounds per game5.5 assists per gameYeah...not even close to Michael.
Do you understand what it means to have a great big man on your team? Michael Jordan would have won more than 6 titles with Shaq instead of Pippen. The fact that Jordan won 6 titles in an era dominated by big men makes his feats extremely impressive, he changed the way teams are built today. He proved you can build your team around a shooting guard, rather than a center. Look at the great teams Jordan steamrolled over to win the title, and then compare it to the Nets-Pacers-Sixers teams the Lakers defeated. The Bulls defeated some of the best teams in NBA history either during the NBA playoffs, or during the NBA finals. They had a much more difficult path to the championship then the Lakers did, he faced the best NBA players on a daily basis.One thing I want to point out is the success Jordan had with the Wizards as a 40 year old man. Granted, he did miss the playoffs both seasons he turned that team around considerably. They won 19 games the year before, and then 37 games in Jordan's first season with the team. That's an 18 game turnaround, not bad for a 40 year old man right? I'm not sure if you guys remember but, that team was HORRIBLE. The other leading scorers were a young Rip Hamilton, Chris Whitney, Courtney Alexander, Hubert Davis, and Popeye Jones. Other than Rip Hamilton I would be willing to bet that 70% of people on BBW has never heard of the other guys on the team, that's how bad his roster was. He STILL led them to an amazing turnaround regardless of how bad his team was. That's an amazing leadership quality, if Jordan had Kobe's current team that year they would have made it to the 2nd round or better. Jordan's team in 1988 wasn't much more talented than Kobe's team last season, in fact his team was pretty bad actually. Other than Charles Oakley grabbing a ton of boards, his team wasn't very good. They averaged similar numbers those years, but Jordan edged him out in nearly every category. They both averaged 30 points, but Jordan took less shots, shot a better percentage, averaged more rebounds, assists, steals, and had better team success. He led the league in Steals that year getting over 3 per game, that's incredible. By the way, Michael Jordan led his team to the 2nd round of the playoffs by himself that year, he had no Pippen at the time. He was a rookie, averaging less than 10 points per game. Do you realize the competition that played during Jordans era? It might have been the best era of basketball in NBA history, shall we name a few players? Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexer, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, Moses Malone, Dominique Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Mark Aguirre, Alex English, Reggie Miller, John Stockton, the list could go on and on. If Kobe didn't win an MVP in this era, what makes you think he would win any in Jordan's era? That was a stupid comment, bro. This can't be taken seriously, I hope not.
NBA Rookie of the Year (1985)NBA Defensive Player of the Year (1988)NBA MVP (1988, 1991, 1992, 1996, 1998)NBA Finals MVP (1991, 1992, 1993, 1996, 1997, 1998)NBA All-Defensive First-Team ((1987, 1988, 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998) 6 NBA ChampionshipsAwards and championships don't matter?30.1 PPG, 6.2 RPG, 4.7 APG, 2.35 SPG on 50% shooting over his 15-year career29,277 points (4th all time) even though he missed 4 seasonsAveraging 20 PPG and 6.1 RPG at 40 years oldStats don't matter?How about the great plays?They don't matter either?Then what can I say?Wilt was the most dominating player in his era..while Jordan was the greatest player everI know Wilt was easily top 3 EVER..#2 next to Jordan I'd say..but I think Jordan just takes it..he had it all
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Mar 20 2007, 12:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Not at all. Shaq is in a whole different era. Wilt was alot more dominant than Shaq. In his prime, Shaq was the most dominant big man in the game but Wilt in general was more talented. His ability to make freethrows, run the floor, and coexist with teammates makes him the better player. Wilt would be just as dominant if not more than Shaq in today's era because of his ability to knock down freethrows leading to no "hack-a-shaq"</div>Sorry but that's completely wrong lolI own a complete game of Wilt..he didn't even try from the free throw line..he just chucked it up there every time..didn't seem like he even caredand this was in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game..game 7 specifically when the Lakers were trailing and had an oppurtinity to win it with Jerry West leading them...
MJ is not god. And to all the noobs who treat him like one need to stfu. Wilt scored 50ppg one season. Wilt led the league in assists per game another season. Wilt almost challenged Muhammed Ali to a fight. He was physically superior to those around him. The only player that came close was Russell. And he was nowhere near the offensive talent that Wilt was. Russell had the better supporting cast, and had the luxury of remaining with 1 team throughout his career. Wilt had to play with 4. Its not easy to be successful with more than 1 team. Shaq did it with 3. He was too young in Orlando to win a title on his own. He played well against Hakeem, but his teammates let him down. MJ was great when he was a youngster. Putting up 32, 8, and 8, and eventually getting over the Pistons defense. I just could not stand his cockyness after that. MJs Bulls never went up against other big time teams like Shaqs lakers did against the Twin Towers, and Kings. The Bulls never faced a prime Knicks team, Rockets team, and split with the Penny-Shaq Magic. Kobe has yet to show that he can make as great decisions as MJ did. MJ knew when to pass the ball, and when to take over. Kobe is still learning that. BTW young Shaq, Kareem, Kobe, MJ, Penny, Oscar, Vince, etc were all pimps.
Maybe you're just mad because the Cavs couldn't get by the Bulls ever because of Jordan's dominance..
Im not a cavs fan. The reason I hate Jordan is not because of his game. Its because he is a wife beater, and he cheated on his wife. He is cocky, and he thinks he is god. Not in a funny Shaq sort of way either. The referees used to love him too. Jordan is the american dream. Young Jordan was a pimp. Dropping 50 on the pre-jordan rules Pistons.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BALLAHOLLIC? @ Mar 20 2007, 09:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do you understand what it means to have a great big man on your team? Michael Jordan would have won more than 6 titles with Shaq instead of Pippen. The fact that Jordan won 6 titles in an era dominated by big men makes his feats extremely impressive, he changed the way teams are built today. He proved you can build your team around a shooting guard, rather than a center. Look at the great teams Jordan steamrolled over to win the title, and then compare it to the Nets-Pacers-Sixers teams the Lakers defeated. The Bulls defeated some of the best teams in NBA history either during the NBA playoffs, or during the NBA finals. They had a much more difficult path to the championship then the Lakers did, he faced the best NBA players on a daily basis.One thing I want to point out is the success Jordan had with the Wizards as a 40 year old man. Granted, he did miss the playoffs both seasons he turned that team around considerably. They won 19 games the year before, and then 37 games in Jordan's first season with the team. That's an 18 game turnaround, not bad for a 40 year old man right? I'm not sure if you guys remember but, that team was HORRIBLE. The other leading scorers were a young Rip Hamilton, Chris Whitney, Courtney Alexander, Hubert Davis, and Popeye Jones. Other than Rip Hamilton I would be willing to bet that 70% of people on BBW has never heard of the other guys on the team, that's how bad his roster was. He STILL led them to an amazing turnaround regardless of how bad his team was. That's an amazing leadership quality, if Jordan had Kobe's current team that year they would have made it to the 2nd round or better.Jordan's team in 1988 wasn't much more talented than Kobe's team last season, in fact his team was pretty bad actually. Other than Charles Oakley grabbing a ton of boards, his team wasn't very good. They averaged similar numbers those years, but Jordan edged him out in nearly every category. They both averaged 30 points, but Jordan took less shots, shot a better percentage, averaged more rebounds, assists, steals, and had better team success. He led the league in Steals that year getting over 3 per game, that's incredible. By the way, Michael Jordan led his team to the 2nd round of the playoffs by himself that year, he had no Pippen at the time. He was a rookie, averaging less than 10 points per game. Do you realize the competition that played during Jordans era? It might have been the best era of basketball in NBA history, shall we name a few players? Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Charles Barkley, Hakeem Olajuwon, David Robinson, Karl Malone, Clyde Drexer, Patrick Ewing, Kevin McHale, Moses Malone, Dominique Wilkins, Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, James Worthy, Mark Aguirre, Alex English, Reggie Miller, John Stockton, the list could go on and on. If Kobe didn't win an MVP in this era, what makes you think he would win any in Jordan's era? That was a stupid comment, bro.This can't be taken seriously, I hope not.</div>I am not even talking about the Kobe-Shaq Lakers. I am talking about the Kobe-Lakers of today. The MJ-led Bulls had a tougher road in the playoffs, fine. But MJ also had the better team. I don't understand why you are bringing up the teams that Kobe and Shaq faced when I am talking about the Kobe-led Lakers of today. MJ got past the first round of the playoffs as a rookie...ok. But when Kobe was a rookie he came straight out of high school! If MJ was on the Lakers of today, I don't believe he could do much more than Kobe is doing right now. What else can Kobe do? To the point of how could Kobe win an MVP in MJ's era if he doesn't now. Well, how about for starters if Kobe was in MJ's shoes instead of him, Kobe would have come first. Meaning, MJ would not have existed, which also leads to Kobe being the best player in the game at the time. You can bring up the argument that Kobe would not be as good as he is if it weren't for MJ. I don't buy it. Kobe looked up to Magic growing up and Erving because of his dad. Kobe even said he didn't like MJ because he was a Magic fan. MJ might also have better career stats but I believe Kobe's career averages would be alot better if Shaq was not around. Now, if that were the case Kobe would most likely not have any rings yet but my point is as far as averages (he still has time though) would have been alot better if Shaq was not the one leading the team. So you don't believe as a clutch player, Kobe is on the same level as Michael? What...how many clutch baskets has Kobe made? A sh*t load. He ranks up there with him on clutch. You going to say that MJ's clutch baskets were in the finals making them better? Well, fine but doesn't change the fact that Kobe is just a clutch of a player as MJ. Kobe had a gamewinner in the finals on a Shaq-led Lakers that eventually lost. Talent wise you don't believe Kobe is as good as MJ and you don't take it seriously? Kobe is a better shooter than MJ and more perimeter oriented while he can still drive to the basket. Scoring-wise both players are pretty even but when I say shooting I am talking about around the perimeter. (even Gail Goodrich said Kobe is the better shooter) Look, my main points are basically that if Kobe was in MJ's place that the same results would happen. Forget all the Kobe-Shaq Lakers. I am talking about the Kobe Bryant-led Lakers of today who are trying to accomplish what MJ-Bulls did. If you compare these two teams, MJ clearly has the better team. Put MJ on this Laker squad instead of Kobe, I don't see what MJ can do that Kobe isn't already doing. Kobe still has time though.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LBJ @ Mar 20 2007, 11:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Im not a cavs fan. The reason I hate Jordan is not because of his game. Its because he is a wife beater, and he cheated on his wife. He is cocky, and he thinks he is god. Not in a funny Shaq sort of way either. The referees used to love him too. Jordan is the american dream. Young Jordan was a pimp. Dropping 50 on the pre-jordan rules Pistons.</div>Sounds like Kobe minus beating his wife and the refs loving ihm.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (playaofthegame @ Mar 20 2007, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sorry but that's completely wrong lolI own a complete game of Wilt..he didn't even try from the free throw line..he just chucked it up there every time..didn't seem like he even caredand this was in the 4th quarter of an NBA finals game..game 7 specifically when the Lakers were trailing and had an oppurtinity to win it with Jerry West leading them...</div>Yeah, my bad. I was fueling my argument with something Michael Bryant said with freethrows and I shouldn't have.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>MJ got past the first round of the playoffs as a rookie...ok. But when Kobe was a rookie he came straight out of high school! If MJ was on the Lakers of today, I don't believe he could do much more than Kobe is doing right now.</div>I guess you missed this part: One thing I want to point out is the success Jordan had with the Wizards as a 40 year old man. Granted, he did miss the playoffs both seasons he turned that team around considerably. They won 19 games the year before, and then 37 games in Jordan's first season with the team. That's an 18 game turnaround, not bad for a 40 year old man right? I'm not sure if you guys remember but, that team was HORRIBLE. The other leading scorers were a young Rip Hamilton, Chris Whitney, Courtney Alexander, Hubert Davis, and Popeye Jones. Other than Rip Hamilton I would be willing to bet that 70% of people on BBW has never heard of the other guys on the team, that's how bad his roster was. He STILL led them to an amazing turnaround regardless of how bad his team was. That's an amazing leadership quality, if Jordan had Kobe's current team that year they would have made it to the 2nd round or better.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>MJ might also have better career stats but I believe Kobe's career averages would be alot better if Shaq was not around.</div>The same thing can be said without Jordan if he didn't have to share the ball with Pippen, it's a similar situation.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>So you don't believe as a clutch player, Kobe is on the same level as Michael? What...how many clutch baskets has Kobe made? A sh*t load. He ranks up there with him on clutch. You going to say that MJ's clutch baskets were in the finals making them better? Well, fine but doesn't change the fact that Kobe is just a clutch of a player as MJ. Kobe had a gamewinner in the finals on a Shaq-led Lakers that eventually lost.</div>We all know that Kobe is clutch, but he's not better at hitting clutch shots than Michael Jordan. It is close, but MJ's ability to hit huge shots throughout the playoffs and NBA finals gives him the edge. Jordan has made more clutch shots in the regular season, more clutch shots in the playoffs, and more in the NBA finals. I agree, Kobe is very clutch. But he's not on Jordans level.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The same thing can be said without Jordan if he didn't have to share the ball with Pippen, it's a similar situation.</div>Entirely different situation. Pippen didn't demand the ball like Shaq. Shaq DEMANDED it. Shaq need to get his 30 ppg and he also required the attention of all the big men in the paint. Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but he didn't need the ball in his hands like Shaq did when Scottie played with MJ. Scottie wasn't getting double teamed when MJ was in the same lineup. Demanding double teams and needing to score as much as Shaq did. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>We all know that Kobe is clutch, but he's not better at hitting clutch shots than Michael Jordan. It is close, but MJ's ability to hit huge shots throughout the playoffs and NBA finals gives him the edge. Jordan has made more clutch shots in the regular season, more clutch shots in the playoffs, and more in the NBA finals. I agree, Kobe is very clutch. But he's not on Jordans level.</div>You are right. While Kobe is one of the most clutch players of all time, MJ should still be considered a better clutch player because of his shots in the finals and deep in the playoffs. Kobe has his but not like Michael's game winners throughout the playoffs as aposed to to the clutch shots he had in one game last year. Special none the less.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KobeBryant_24 @ Mar 19 2007, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really when Kobe hangs it up, if he wins 4-5 more rings I don't see how you can say Jordan is above and beyond the great Kobe Bryant</div>Jordan played better defense. More clutch. More Rings. Didn't have a Shaq. Better passer.Enough said. Shut your trap.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Entirely different situation. Pippen didn't demand the ball like Shaq. Shaq DEMANDED it. Shaq need to get his 30 ppg and he also required the attention of all the big men in the paint. Pippen was a great player, no doubt, but he didn't need the ball in his hands like Shaq did when Scottie played with MJ. Scottie wasn't getting double teamed when MJ was in the same lineup. Demanding double teams and needing to score as much as Shaq did.</div>I sorta agree with you about Shaq demanding the ball more, but did you know that Shaq only took 2 more shots per game than Pippen? That's not much of a difference.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You are right.</div> :bat:
