Wait did someone say Jordan was a wifebeater, or what did he do. I just want to know so I have something to say when the Bulls fan somewhere else always hates on guys like Ewing, Malone, Stockton and Reggie.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Mar 25 2007, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He doesn't know when to pass, are you f*cking kidding me? Have you watched him play at all this year? Early in the year when he was called upon to be the facilitator he was getting around 7 and 8 assists a game. Now with the injuries and players coming back(Luke,Lamar,Kwame) Kobe is taking upon himself the role to shoot more and he is making the lot of them. He is doing a good job knowing exactly when he needs to pass more and when he needs to be scorer Kobe. He ruined a dynasty? I don't think so: http://youtube.com/watch?v=9qQPBt7QW5Q If you put all the blame on Kobe, you are completely mis lead and don't understand the situation.</div>You think he knows when to pass. But if he really did. The team would be winning many more games. Jordan would drop 50 against big time teams. He would engage his teammates in other games. Dirk lets his teammates score at home. He does the dirty work on the road. Kobe has alot to learn. He is nowhere as near as unselfish as Tmac is. (I took some stuff out, because idgaf) Shaq never got the hype he should have. He was unstoppable. Big men dont get respect anymore. It is the medias fault for only hyping up the Lebrons of the world in their shoe commercials. Remember the quote about Penny, Kobe, and Wade. Tmac and Yao-Neither are the man. And that is the main problem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LBJ @ Mar 25 2007, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You think he knows when to pass. But if he really did. The team would be winning many more games. Jordan would drop 50 against big time teams. He would engage his teammates in other games. Dirk lets his teammates score at home. He does the dirty work on the road. Kobe has alot to learn. He is nowhere as near as unselfish as Tmac is. (I took some stuff out, because idgaf) Shaq never got the hype he should have. He was unstoppable. Big men dont get respect anymore. It is the medias fault for only hyping up the Lebrons of the world in their shoe commercials. Remember the quote about Penny, Kobe, and Wade. Tmac and Yao-Neither are the man. And that is the main problem.</div>Oh, so it's all Kobe's fault the Lakers don't have as many wins? Please. Again, injuries have plagued this team unlike any year I have seen. How the hell is Kobe supposed to pass more when all his teammates are injured?! And now with some of his teammates coming back, Kobe is taking on the scoring load and leading the team to victory. Kobe has never dropped 50 against big time teams? Tmac is more unselfish than Kobe? Elaborate.
Kobe Bryant knows when to pass the ball....whenever I watch him he's always looking for an open shooter and a teammate in good position to score....I don't know what your talking about LBJ.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Mar 25 2007, 07:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe Bryant knows when to pass the ball....whenever I watch him he's always looking for an open shooter and a teammate in good position to score....I don't know what your talking about LBJ.</div>The way that team has been playing lately, I think he needs to shoot as much as possible and try for 50 every night. They had lost 7 straight before he decided to start scoring 50 points or more a game. Now they are on a four game winning streak. He needs to look to score more, since the rest of the team is not picking up the scoring slack right now.
Kobe has done a good job lately. How long have we awaited for him to break out of his shell this season. He has done the right thing. He is in the zone. Of course it would be only better if he could control that better, and when his team needed him. Before the stretch of 50 games, he was putting up big numbers, but losing. Now he is winning. So there are no excuses. Winning solves everything.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Mar 25 2007, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe Bryant knows when to pass the ball....whenever I watch him he's always looking for an open shooter and a teammate in good position to score....I don't know what your talking about LBJ.</div>I was watching Kobe last night when he scored 43, and he definetely knew when to pass the ball. If anything, he left it up to Odom and Turiaf and they won the game for the Lakers. Kobe knows when to pass the balls. The Lakers anyway form the triangle most of the time down the court.... if not they set a pick, they dont have many outside shooters aside from Vujacic really, and Kobe cleans the perimeter somewhat.
I haven't read any of this thread, so if these points have been brought up, please forgive me (I just don't feel like reading 8 pages of mindless rabble).MJ is overrated. Yes. People act like no one will ever be close to what he is, skill wise or as an innovater of the game. Yes, without Pippen he wouldn't have won a ring. But, despite those things, he was the most skilled and gifted player to ever play this game. He was not only the best offensive player of his time....he was the best perimeter defender as well. Offensively, he is the best the league has ever seen. Some may say he wasn't a great playmaker, but look what he did before Phil came, before Pippen started to blossom, and before he had all those great role player....37PPG with 8APG. He was the do-everything guy for the Bulls, and in a much touger league, he got team to playoffs (in which he dropped over 60 on the great Celtics). He was the most athletic player we have ever seen, and in his early years it allowed him to absolutely dominate the game. Aside from those skills, the intangibles is what made MJ the GOAT. Every single night he'd challenge himself, practice for endless hours, put himself on the other teams best player, had the confidence to always take the big shot, take over the game, the overwhelming will to win....the guy oozed competitive fire. That fire within is what made him the most feared clutch player of all time (with Reggie, Bird and West not toof ar behind). He totally revolutionized the game. He made baggy shorts popular, basically built up Nike by himself with the Air Jordan brand, starred in movies, and moreso than any player before him he made people dream and want to be like him and do the amazing things he did. Yes, he took things from guys like Elgin Baylor and Dr J, but they never influenced how others played like MJ did. There are so many people immitating MJ's style of play, and one man in particular who is basically MJ with a 3pt shot and Lakers uniform.As he matured, his game matured. He was one of the smartest players to ever play this game. When he came back from his 1st retirement, his athleticism was diminishing but still found a way to put up over 30PPG on over 50% shooting. For a SG to do this with athleticism that isn't where it used to be, you need to be either a great jumpshooter, or find ways to get easy shots despite any kind of defense. MJ mixed the 2 up, and became probably the greatest post player ever at the SG position. He revived the fadeaway and absolutely perfected it. He was unguarable, despite not being as fast or able to jump high as he used to be able to. His footwork and general knowledge of the game gave him balance to that fadeaway, and made him the most dangerous scorer in the league through his mid '30's. Even after his 2nd retirement, in which he could barely dunk, he was still very dangerous, and was the oldest player ever to score 50pts.Now, don't take away from anything he did because of the cast he had around him. He was the clear cut leader and best player of both 3 peats. I know MichaelBryant will use Wilt as best to ever play, and despite how dominant he was, he could never win a title until he had West and Baylor by him. Magic could have never won without Kareem or Worthy. Bird couldn't have done it without Mchale and the crew. So to use MJ's supporting cast against his 6 rings is ridiculous.MJ was the greatest to ever play this game. Bird's quote was perfect for the title of this topic..."God is disguised as Michael Jordan."
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Mar 26 2007, 08:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'></div>Excellent post (Dont feel like typing so I will quote people). But I feel that his defense was overrated (especially when he came back from retirement). You can just see who he was guarding during the playoffs (EG. Greg Foster). Not hating on his greatness/talent which is top 5 for sure though. Only wished he could have went up against a better rival teams. (Lakers/Celtics, Lakers/Spurs). <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>But I want to mention one other area; defense.This is another area where Pippen helped MJ immeasurably. It wasn't just that Pippen would usually bear most of the defensive load for games and allow MJ to pick his spots and run up nice D numbers while conserving his energy for carrying the scoring.It was also that, before Pippen and when he played without him, MJ was an erratic defender. Still had all the tools you needed, but he would get impatient and gamble a lot, or try and bring an offensive mindset (ie force the action) to defense, which works or doesn't depending on the situation/player/way you do it.Against the right kind of player, or in the right situation, MJ's need to force the action on D could pay off great. But against others it would cost him and the Bulls big, and were it not for the fact that he was allowed to get away with more, would have cost even bigger. He would try to dictate on D rather than react, and as such would overreach at times, leaving him (or his teammates if/when they tried to react and protect him) vulnerable when a patient reactionary defensive mindset would have served much better.This is another of the reasons I feel MJ;s D was greatly overrated via stats. I think the truly great defensive players, like the Dumars or the Pippens or the Hakeems...they adjusted their mindset more, had less overt ego invested in having to control the action. They could be aggressive when needed, or reactive when that was better, whereas MJ, except when he was on cruise control, basically always felt the need to dictate.</div>Of course he also traveled, and carried alot but had the refs on his side. His handles were average. He was smart enough to live at the FT Line. He was a bad teammate too. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>His worst weakness was as a teammate. He was a cut throat practice player but teammates couldn't relate to him and learn from him. That's where the importance and the true greatness of a Scottie Pippen comes in. He was like Moses to Jordan's God and the Bulls' Hebrews. He could communicate the message and make the team feel united. Jordan could not do that. He demanded perfection at all times and did not understand how to finesse a person. He simply bullied them. It caused Ron Artest to break his ribs, Abe Pollin to dump him unceremoniously and Washington to say goodbye without much tears. Not to mention the fight with Steve Kerr and probably countless others.</div>*I grew up watching Penny, Stockton, Malone, VC, etc and hating on MJ. So please take that into account .
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Mar 26 2007, 07:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I haven't read any of this thread, so if these points have been brought up, please forgive me (I just don't feel like reading 8 pages of mindless rabble).MJ is overrated. Yes. People act like no one will ever be close to what he is, skill wise or as an innovater of the game. Yes, without Pippen he wouldn't have won a ring. But, despite those things, he was the most skilled and gifted player to ever play this game. He was not only the best offensive player of his time....he was the best perimeter defender as well. Offensively, he is the best the league has ever seen. Some may say he wasn't a great playmaker, but look what he did before Phil came, before Pippen started to blossom, and before he had all those great role player....37PPG with 8APG. He was the do-everything guy for the Bulls, and in a much touger league, he got team to playoffs (in which he dropped over 60 on the great Celtics). He was the most athletic player we have ever seen, and in his early years it allowed him to absolutely dominate the game. Aside from those skills, the intangibles is what made MJ the GOAT. Every single night he'd challenge himself, practice for endless hours, put himself on the other teams best player, had the confidence to always take the big shot, take over the game, the overwhelming will to win....the guy oozed competitive fire. That fire within is what made him the most feared clutch player of all time (with Reggie, Bird and West not toof ar behind). He totally revolutionized the game. He made baggy shorts popular, basically built up Nike by himself with the Air Jordan brand, starred in movies, and moreso than any player before him he made people dream and want to be like him and do the amazing things he did. Yes, he took things from guys like Elgin Baylor and Dr J, but they never influenced how others played like MJ did. There are so many people immitating MJ's style of play, and one man in particular who is basically MJ with a 3pt shot and Lakers uniform.As he matured, his game matured. He was one of the smartest players to ever play this game. When he came back from his 1st retirement, his athleticism was diminishing but still found a way to put up over 30PPG on over 50% shooting. For a SG to do this with athleticism that isn't where it used to be, you need to be either a great jumpshooter, or find ways to get easy shots despite any kind of defense. MJ mixed the 2 up, and became probably the greatest post player ever at the SG position. He revived the fadeaway and absolutely perfected it. He was unguarable, despite not being as fast or able to jump high as he used to be able to. His footwork and general knowledge of the game gave him balance to that fadeaway, and made him the most dangerous scorer in the league through his mid '30's. Even after his 2nd retirement, in which he could barely dunk, he was still very dangerous, and was the oldest player ever to score 50pts.Now, don't take away from anything he did because of the cast he had around him. He was the clear cut leader and best player of both 3 peats. I know MichaelBryant will use Wilt as best to ever play, and despite how dominant he was, he could never win a title until he had West and Baylor by him. Magic could have never won without Kareem or Worthy. Bird couldn't have done it without Mchale and the crew. So to use MJ's supporting cast against his 6 rings is ridiculous.MJ was the greatest to ever play this game. Bird's quote was perfect for the title of this topic..."God is disguised as Michael Jordan."</div>This jumble of words is exactly why I think that Michael Jordan was overrated. You made some serious mistakes in here. Don't get me wrong, he is the greatest perimeter player to have every played, but I don't think he is as great as everyone says he is. For the first bolded part you say he got his team to the playoffs, he got them with a 38-44 record. He couldn't lead his team to .500 as a rookie. Meanwhile, people like Shaq got his team to a 41-41 record his rookie season, which was a 20 game jump from the previous season, and his team didn't make the playoffs. Sure he was averaging nice stats, but he couldn't get his team to a winning record as a rookie.He is not the most athletic player we have ever seen either. I could make easy cases for Vince Carter, Dwayne Wade, guys like these being just as athletic. In fact, I see Vince Carter easily being as good of an athlete as Jordan was, if not a better athlete. So once again there I am going to call your bluff.Onto that last part, Chamberlain won a title with the 76ers before he ever even went to the Lakers. They beat the San Francisco Warriors in the 1966-67 season for Wilts first ever NBA title, so you are wrong there. He would later claim another one in L.A later on in his career. As for the great teams, I won't use that against him, because as you said everyone needed great teams around him to be great. I just get sick of people saying that Michael Jordan single handedly pushed the Bulls to those championships when Scottie Pippen was just as valuable to that team as Michael Jordan was, and he was on a great team. You can read back through here and see where people constantly say he led them to those championships all by himself.
How many points would Jordan average with today's defensive rules where defenders would not even be able to put a hand on him (which to remind you, was the only way he was ever even contained)? Maybe around 40 easy
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KobeBryant_24 @ Mar 19 2007, 10:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Really when Kobe hangs it up, if he wins 4-5 more rings I don't see how you can say Jordan is above and beyond the great Kobe Bryant</div><span style="font-family:Century Gothic">I hate how everyone says, "If Kobe wins 3, 4 or 5 more rings..." WTF? Do you honestly believe Kobe Bryant can win 3, 4 or even 5 more rings as a player? It seems impossible in today's League. How can the Lakers take down such great teams as the Phoenix Suns, Dallas Mavericks or even the San Antonio Spurs? Even after those three teams die out, there's always the young teams that'll take their spot, so Kobe is pretty much screwed.I already believe that Kobe is one of the top 10 G.O.A.T and even if he doesn't win another ring, he'll still be one of the top 10 greatest of all-time. Believe that, punks!In my opinion, though, MJ is very overrated. Wilton Norman Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T, but nobody will agree with that statement because Wilt's competition was short, non-athletic white dudes. Oh, well...</span>
[quote name='valo35' post='318752' date='Mar 27 2007, 10:31 AM']For the first bolded part you say he got his team to the playoffs, he got them with a 38-44 record. He couldn't lead his team to .500 as a rookie. Meanwhile, people like Shaq got his team to a 41-41 record his rookie season, which was a 20 game jump from the previous season, and his team didn't make the playoffs. Sure he was averaging nice stats, but he couldn't get his team to a winning record as a rookie.[/quote]Shaq had Scott Skiles, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott to help him. Those 3 players put up 51PPG, 13RPG and 15APG. The early-'90's East was much weaker than the mid-'80's East. MJ had Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Daile, but absolutely no rebounding presence or playmaker (MJ was the leader of that team in points, assists, rebounds and steals). He didn't have the overall supporting cast that Shaq did, and he basically had to be the best in every category right from the start.For MJ and Shaq to get teams in the playoffs without a ton of help in their rookie year is equally as impressive since VERY few rookies ever could do that. MJ averaged 28/7/6/2 on 52% shooting as a rookie and got his team into the playoffs....you can't ask much more from a rookie. And again, look at how stacked the teams were in the mid '80's compared to the early '90's. D-Wade isn't nearly as vertically athletic (aka vertical jump), and VC isn't as quick off the dribble or laterally as Jordan. MJ ran a 4.4 40 yard dash, his vertical jump was right there with VC's, and he was just as good jumping off 1 foot as 2 (VC can't jump nearly as high off 1 foot).You can make a case for those guys, but IMO MJ was the most athletic and explosive player we have ever seen, and used his abilities to their fullest extent (unlike VC, T-Mac, LeBron, etc..). My bad, you are correct. But he didn't do it alone, he had a nice cast around him with Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Hal Greer and Luke Jackson, who all contributed big time. My point was that no one has ever won a title without all star help. Not even Wilt, who totally dominated his era. So to use Scottie and the rest of those great Bulls teams against Mike is stupid. As I said in my 1st post, I haven't read any of these 8 pages as I'm sure ridiculous crap was said. But I do disagree about Scottie being just as valuable as MJ. I doubt either would have won a ring without the other, but MJ could do what Scottie did, but not the other way around. What made Scottie so valuable was he relieved the playmaking duties off MJ. Sure, he was a great defender, could score, and all of that, but what made MJ/Scottie work was MJ was allowed to focus primarily on scoring instead of having to do everything. If Scottie was the one playing baseball those 2 years, I doubt MJ would have won a title, but I feel MJ could have filled the needs of the team in Scottie's absence. But what made him more valuable to the Bulls than Scottie was, like Kobe is right now, he could win games with his scoring, he could do a good enough job of making plays for others and setting up the offense, he could defend, and of course he was arguably the best finisher of all time.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Illosophee @ Mar 27 2007, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Century Gothic">I hate how everyone says, "If Kobe wins 3, 4 or 5 more rings..." WTF? Do you honestly believe Kobe Bryant can win 3, 4 or even 5 more rings as a player? It seems impossible in today's League. How can the Lakers take down such great teams as the Phoenix Suns, Dallas Mavericks or even the San Antonio Spurs? Even after those three teams die out, there's always the young teams that'll take their spot, so Kobe is pretty much screwed. I already believe that Kobe is one of the top 10 G.O.A.T and even if he doesn't win another ring, he'll still be one of the top 10 greatest of all-time. Believe that, punks! In my opinion, though, MJ is very overrated. Wilton Norman Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T, but nobody will agree with that statement because Wilt's competition was short, non-athletic white dudes. Oh, well...</span></div> Okay firstly he's still near the beggining of his prime and near the dealine the lakers proved that they knew how to improve by trying to bring in Jason Kidd. Now if htey continue to have that hunger to improve then who knows what could happen. And you say that it is near impossible but how much longer will the spurs be this good, they are old. Mavs will continue this dominance for a while and no one knows how succesful the Suns will be in the playoffs with their defense. You never know.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Mar 27 2007, 03:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Shaq had Scott Skiles, Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott to help him. Those 3 players put up 51PPG, 13RPG and 15APG. The early-'90's East was much weaker than the mid-'80's East. MJ had Orlando Woolridge and Quintin Daile, but absolutely no rebounding presence or playmaker (MJ was the leader of that team in points, assists, rebounds and steals). He didn't have the overall supporting cast that Shaq did, and he basically had to be the best in every category right from the start.</div>Shaq didn't ever have a 20 point per game scorer by his side as Jordan had in Woolridge, his rookie season. And how can you say he didn't have the overall supporting cast, when obviously he didn't have a good supporing cast, they won 21 games the year before. Meanwhile, Jordan's team won 27 games the year before? They both had bad supporting casts, and Shaq's was just as bad of a supporting cast as Michael Jordan's was. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>For MJ and Shaq to get teams in the playoffs without a ton of help in their rookie year is equally as impressive since VERY few rookies ever could do that. MJ averaged 28/7/6/2 on 52% shooting as a rookie and got his team into the playoffs....you can't ask much more from a rookie. And again, look at how stacked the teams were in the mid '80's compared to the early '90's.</div>Shaq's team didn't make the playoffs when he was a rookie. I was showing that in Shaq's time and other times it took an actual winning record to make the playoffs, compared to Jordan as a rookie who could make the playoffs with a loosing record. You can say it was much tougher, but it was a top heavy leaague in those days, the bottom teams were not as good as the were in Shaq's day which would be why loosing records could get you into the NBA.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>As I said in my 1st post, I haven't read any of these 8 pages as I'm sure ridiculous crap was said. But I do disagree about Scottie being just as valuable as MJ. I doubt either would have won a ring without the other, but MJ could do what Scottie did, but not the other way around. What made Scottie so valuable was he relieved the playmaking duties off MJ. Sure, he was a great defender, could score, and all of that, but what made MJ/Scottie work was MJ was allowed to focus primarily on scoring instead of having to do everything. If Scottie was the one playing baseball those 2 years, I doubt MJ would have won a title, but I feel MJ could have filled the needs of the team in Scottie's absence. But what made him more valuable to the Bulls than Scottie was, like Kobe is right now, he could win games with his scoring, he could do a good enough job of making plays for others and setting up the offense, he could defend, and of course he was arguably the best finisher of all time.</div>Scottie Pippen was easily as valuable to that team as Jordan was for a few reasons. One he aloud Jordan to take the easier defensive matchup on the wings, because Pippen was just as good defensively as Pippen was. That allowed Jordan to be able to concentrate more on offense, because he didn't have to worry about foul trouble. Pippen wasthe facilitator of that offense, pretty much initiating the offense and acting as a point guard many times. However what lets me know the most how much valuable Scottie Pippen was to this team, was that one year that Jordan went to play baseball, and they filled Jordan's spot with CBA all-star, Pete Myers. They still managed to win 55 games, two less than the year before, and took the Knicks to a seven game series. That same Knicks team made it to the finals, and took the Rockets to a seen game series. So even without Jordan that was a championship contender team, letting me know that maybe the driving force behind those teams was Scottie Pippen. Jordan just got lots of the credit becaues he was the flashiest player of the two. That is why I still believe that Pippen was just as valuable to that team as Jordan was.
[quote name='valo35' post='319045' date='Mar 27 2007, 07:21 PM']Shaq didn't ever have a 20 point per game scorer by his side as Jordan had in Woolridge, his rookie season. And how can you say he didn't have the overall supporting cast, when obviously he didn't have a good supporing cast, they won 21 games the year before. Meanwhile, Jordan's team won 27 games the year before? They both had bad supporting casts, and Shaq's was just as bad of a supporting cast as Michael Jordan's was.[/quote]Yes, he had Woolridge, but MJ had to be the point guard, #1 scorer, best defender on team, best rebounder on team, etc... He had far more responsibility than Shaq, who had the right kind of role players by him so he didn't have to go outside of his comfort zone. Shaq's scoring wasn't much of a big deal to the Magic, it was his presence in the post defensively which made them so much better. Before Shaq they had no inside presence, and that was their only real glaring weakness. Before Jordan came to the Bulls, they needed EVERYTHING to be successful.BTW, Nick Anderson averaged 20PPG in Shaq's rookie year. It was a more balanced league in the early '90's, but the quality of basketball as a whole was considerably worse. The golden era of DEEP rosters and stars all around that MJ played in for the early part of his career was gone, and in came the expansion and new stars just starting to flourish. The top teams in both conferences weren't as tough as they were in the '80's. And FYI, Orlando had same record as 8th seeded Indiana, just didn't hold tiebreaker. The year before, the 8th seed in the East only had 38 wins, and 2 years later it took only 35 wins. Everything you said I acknowledged. Pippen made things much easier for MJ, and without Pippen MJ probably wouldn't have won a title (and vice versa). BUT, everything Pippen could do, MJ could do and then some. But that was not needed in both 3 peats as Pippen allowed Jordan's best attribute, scoring, to flourish. And BTW, Pippen taking the tougher defensive matchup wasn't for foul trouble worries, it was to allow MJ more energy on the offensive end (and the fact that Pippen's bigger frame made him a bit more versatile). We don't know how MJ would have done without Pippen that year, so it is unfair to say he was the main driving force behind the great Bulls teams. MJ never had that kind of cast by him in that weak of a conference before Pippen started to blossom and they put players around Jordan. I respect your opinion that he was just as valuable, and the evidence is pretty eye appealing, but I firmly believe MJ was more valuable to both 3 peats (especially the first) than Pippen.
Now your throwing stuff out there that has no merit at all, especially with the Shaq and his scoring part. His scoring was just as important as his defense was to the Magic, maybe even more important. That was a huge reason why he was drafted was because of offense, if they wanted defense they would have went the Alonzo Mourning route as he was a better defensive player than Shaq was. They brought in Shaq because he was a dominant low post scorer that drew double teams and allowed the rest of the Magic to be able to move around easier. His scoring and offense was very much a huge part of that team. Your right there, I just glanced and saw 19, but it actually says 19.9 so pretty much 20 points per game. Either way though, he still was not a Woolridge type scorer that could get you 22 points per game playing second fiddle. Obviously if it was a more balanced league, then it would be harder to get into the playoffs because every game every night is going to be harder as opposed to just playing the top teams was the hard games like in the 80's. I did already know that Orlando had the same record, I was alive then living in Orlando and about 7 or 8 years old. The big difference is, they still had a 41-41 record and didn't make the playoffs. Your hyping up Jordan for leading his team to the playoffs as a rookie, but it only took 38 wins to make it into the playoffs. Whether 2 years before, or the year before it took that many to make it, Shaq's rookie year it took a 41-41 record to tie the people that made it into the playoffs and not make it. Jordan was an awesome athlete that as well conditioned as we have ever seen. He could easily have guarded the other teams best players and still had more than enough energy for the end of games. So I'm not buying that energy factor. They wanted to keep Jordan out of foul trouble, and I will go along with your Pippen's frame making him more versatile. He was the better choice of the two for guarding the other teams players, because he was just as good if not better at defense than Jordan was. You can say that MJ would have done that without Pippen, but it was not proven. Whether it was MJ's fault or not, it was never proven that he could lead that team without Pippen. It was proven that Pippen could lead that team without Jordan. Also without Pippen, Jordan's role would have changed greatly, he would have had to have taken in a bigger role in the playmaking and worrying about other things besides scoring and defense. Without Jordan, Pippen's role really didn't change, he did the same thing. So I have to wonder how much more effective he would have been having to act as playmaker rather than scorer.
Wow you guys. I thought this thread would just be forgotten but, I was wrong. Keep on debating, but don't forget the premise: To discuss how overrated Jordan is.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The main goal of basketball for every team is to lead your team is it not?Wilt only led his team to it all once (He won two rings, but one of them was when he was 36 and worn out)Shaq? he has four rings.Wilt is clutch? Hell noHE LOST THREE GAME SEVEN'S IN THE NBA FINALS!Between 2000-2003 Shaq averaged around 28 and 14 in the preseason...oh and this wasn't a center dominated game at the time, and in the postseason in the clutch time, shaq DID hit his free throws.</div>DONT TALK sh*t ON WILT. Shaq ALSO never had 22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists in the SAME GAME.Shaq has never gotten a triple-double. Wilt Chamberlain averaged Shaq's career high in rebounding as a f*cking rookie.Whens the last time Shaq had 58 points and 45 rebounds?Shaq never had to play against one of the 5 greatest teams EVERY YEAR. Wilt holds 56 NBA records, how many does Shaq hold?Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game in 1962, Shaq can't even play 30 without a f*cking rest.How many rules did Shaq change?Has Shaq ever averaged more than 13 rebounds per game? Wilt never averaged less than 18 per game.Listen kid, don't give me a bunch of sh*t about some fatass, egotistical one-dimensional 6 year old. Shaq was lucky enough to play in todays slow paced game, he'd never keep up with Wilt and Russ, never.Anyway, I haven't read all the post but, try not to stray from the topic!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Michael Bryant @ Mar 31 2007, 02:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow you guys. I thought this thread would just be forgotten but, I was wrong. Keep on debating, but don't forget the premise: To discuss how overrated Jordan is. DONT TALK sh*t ON WILT. Shaq ALSO never had 22 points, 25 rebounds and 21 assists in the SAME GAME. Shaq has never gotten a triple-double. Wilt Chamberlain averaged Shaq's career high in rebounding as a f*cking rookie. Whens the last time Shaq had 58 points and 45 rebounds? Shaq never had to play against one of the 5 greatest teams EVERY YEAR. Wilt holds 56 NBA records, how many does Shaq hold? Wilt averaged 48.5 minutes per game in 1962, Shaq can't even play 30 without a f*cking rest. How many rules did Shaq change? Has Shaq ever averaged more than 13 rebounds per game? Wilt never averaged less than 18 per game. Listen kid, don't give me a bunch of sh*t about some fatass, egotistical one-dimensional 6 year old. Shaq was lucky enough to play in todays slow paced game, he'd never keep up with Wilt and Russ, never. Anyway, I haven't read all the post but, try not to stray from the topic!</div> You're comparing statistics when it is well known that the NBA back then was much less competetive and filled with un-athletecism. Rarely any audio or television clips of Wilt were ever played but if you're 2 feet taller than everyone else on the court it's obvious you're gonna dominate the game. Also the game back then was much more big-man oriented when now-a-days it focuses on guard play. The game is faster now... Btw, calm down about Wilt, you related to him or somn?
