Politics House GOP Tax Bill Keeps 39.6% Rate for High-Earners, Cuts Corporate Rate to 20%

Discussion in 'Blazers OT Forum' started by Denny Crane, Nov 2, 2017.

  1. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    72,976
    Likes Received:
    10,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Never lost a case
    Location:
    Boston Legal
    The estate tax is an issue of fairness. You have some silly (IMO) need to penalize the rich for their success. I have no grudge against Bill Gates for being successful - he really did change the world for the better. If he wants to hand his art collection and exotic car collection down to his kids, I have no beef with it.
     
  2. dviss1

    dviss1 Emcee Referee

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    29,479
    Likes Received:
    27,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    That's one way to frame it. Here's another:

    Ten Facts You Should Know About the Federal Estate Tax

    The federal estate tax is a tax on property (cash, real estate, stock, or other assets) transferred from deceased persons to their heirs. Only the wealthiest estates pay the tax because it is levied only on the portion of an estate’s value that exceeds a specified exemption level — $5.49 million per person (effectively $10.98 million per married couple) in 2017.[2]THE ESTATE TAX LIMITS THE LARGE TAX BREAKS THAT EXTREMELY WEALTHY HOUSEHOLDS GET ON THEIR WEALTH AS IT GROWS, WHICH CAN OTHERWISE GO UNTAXED.The estate tax thus limits, to a modest degree, the large tax breaks that extremely wealthy households get on their wealth as it grows, which can otherwise go untaxed.

    The estate tax has been an important source of federal revenue for a century, yet a number of misconceptions continue to surround it. This report briefly describes ten facts about the federal estate tax.

    (While this paper focuses on the federal estate tax, taxes on inherited wealth are also a traditional and common revenue source for states.[3])



    FIGURE 1
    [​IMG]


    1. Roughly 2 of Every 1,000 Estates Face the Estate Tax
    Today, 99.8 percent of estates owe no estate tax at all, according to the Joint Committee on Taxation.[4] Only the estates of the wealthiest 0.2 percent of Americans — roughly 2 out of every 1,000 people who die — owe any estate tax. (See Figure 1.) This is because of the tax’s high exemption amount, which has jumped from $650,000 per person in 2001 to $5.49 million per person in 2017.

    FIGURE 2
    [​IMG]
    Thus, the estate tax is best characterized as a tax on very large inheritances by a small group of wealthy heirs; repeal would amount to a massive windfall averaging more than $3 million apiece for the top 0.2 percent, and more than $20 million for the wealthiest estates. As New York University School of Law professor Lily L. Batchelder explains, “it would be more accurate to call wealth transfer taxes [such as the estate tax] ‘silver spoon’ taxes, not ‘death’ taxes as their opponents prefer.”[5]

    2. Taxable Estates Generally Pay About One-Sixth of Their Value in Tax
    Among the few estates nationwide that owe any estate tax in 2017, the effective tax rate — that is, the share of the estate’s value paid in taxes — is less than 17 percent, on average, according to the Tax Policy Center (TPC).[6] That is far below the top statutory rate of 40 percent. (See Figure 2.) Claims by repeal proponents that the estate tax consumes nearly half of an estate’s value are therefore false.

    The effective rate is so much lower than the top rate for several reasons. First, estate taxes are due only on the portion of an estate’s value that exceeds the exemption level; at the 2017 exemption level of $5.49 million, a $6 million estate would owe estate taxes on $510,000 at most. Second, heirs can often shield a large portion of an estate’s remaining value from taxation through generous deductions and other discounts that policymakers have enacted over time.[7] Further, as explained below, estates use large loopholes to avoid considerable amounts of tax.

    3. Large Loopholes Enable Many Estates to Avoid Taxes
    Many wealthy estates employ teams of lawyers and accountants to develop and exploit loopholes in the estate tax that allow them to pass on large portions of their estates tax-free. These strategies don’t benefit the broader economy; they only allow the wealthiest estates to avoid taxes.

    For example, some estates use grantor retained annuity trusts (GRATs) to pass along considerable assets tax-free. The estate owner puts money into a trust designed to repay the estate the initial amount plus interest at a rate set by the Treasury, typically over two years. If the investment — typically stock — rises in value any more than the Treasury rate, the gain goes to an heir tax-free. If the investment doesn’t rise in value, the full amount still goes back to the estate. Such techniques have been described as a “heads I win, tails we tie” bet.[8]

    The GRAT loophole enables wealthy estates to avoid extraordinary amounts of tax when stock or other assets rise in value quickly, as has happened frequently in recent years. The tax lawyer credited with discovering the loophole estimates that it has allowed wealthy estates to avoid as much as $100 billion in estate taxes since 2000, or close to one-third of the amount that the tax raised over the period.[9]

    A top estate tax priority for policymakers should be to eliminate loopholes such as these.[10]

    4. Only a Handful of Small, Family-Owned Farms and Businesses Owe Any Estate Tax
    Only roughly 80 small business and small farm estates nationwide will face any estate tax in 2017, according to TPC. TPC’s analysis defined a small-business or small farm estate as one with more than half its value in a farm or business and with the farm or business assets valued at less than $5 million. Furthermore, TPC estimates those roughly 80 estates will owe less than 6 percent of their value in tax, on average.[11] (See Figure 3.)



    FIGURE 3
    [​IMG]


    These findings are consistent with a 2005 Congressional Budget Office (CBO) study finding that of the few farm and family business estates that would owe any estate tax under the rules scheduled for 2009, the overwhelming majority would have sufficient liquid assets (such as bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and insurance) in the estate to pay the tax without having to touch the farm or business.[12] The current estate tax rules are even more generous than those assumed in this analysis.

    Furthermore, special estate tax provisions — such as the option to spread payments over a 15-year period and at low interest rates — allow the few taxable estates that would face any liquidity constraints to pay the tax without selling off any farm assets.

    5. The Largest Estates Consist Mostly of “Unrealized” Capital Gains That Have Never Been Taxed
    FIGURE 4
    [​IMG]
    Much of the money that wealthy heirs inherit would never face any taxation were it not for the estate tax. In fact, that’s one reason why policymakers created the estate tax in 1916: to serve as a backstop to the income tax, taxing the income of wealthy taxpayers that would otherwise go completely untaxed.

    Under the current tax system, capital gains tax is due on the appreciation of assets, such as real estate, stock, or an art collection, only when the owner “realizes” the gain (usually by selling the asset). Therefore, the increase in the value of an asset is never subject to income tax if the owner holds on to the asset until death.[13]

    These unrealized capital gains account for a significant proportion of the assets held by estates — ranging from 32 percent for estates worth between $5 million and $10 million to as much as about 55 percent of the value of estates worth more than $100 million.[14] (See Figure 4.)

    The estate tax also serves as a modest corrective to other tax rules that provide massive tax benefits to income from wealth, such as the fact that capital gains are taxed at lower rates than wages and salaries. The top 0.1 percent of taxpayers — those with incomes above $3.1 million — will receive 56 percent of the benefit of the preferential capital gains rates in 2017, worth more than $600,000 apiece.[15] Other tax rules allow part of the income of the very wealthiest to go completely untaxed, even with the estate tax.[16]

    Since the estate tax serves, in part, to tax capital gains that have not otherwise been taxed, some people have proposed taxing estates at the top capital gains rate, currently 23.8 percent. This argument is flawed: the capital gains tax rates typically apply to nearly all capital gains income, whereas the estate tax applies only to the part of an estate that exceeds the exemption level. (The estate tax’s average effective rate of 17 percent in 2017 is below the capital gains rate.)

    6. The Estate Tax Is a Significant Revenue Source
    While the estate tax will generate less than 1 percent of federal revenue over the next decade, it is significantly more than the federal government will spend on the Food and Drug Administration, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, and the Environmental Protection Agency combined.[17] Repealing the estate tax would cost $269 billion over a decade, the Joint Committee on Taxation estimates, before counting the interest costs of adding to the debt.[18]

    Most budget experts agree that more deficit reduction — on top of the significant measures of recent years — is needed to address our longer-term fiscal problems as the economy strengthens. Even without the loss of estate tax revenues, deficit reduction is difficult. Cuts enacted so far will affect funding for programs ranging from education and medical research to law enforcement and environmental protection, as well as for programs that alleviate hardship and expand opportunity for low- and moderate-income Americans. It would be irresponsible for policymakers to add billions more to the task of deficit reduction by cutting the taxes of a few wealthy estates while at the same time asking for further sacrifices from less-fortunate Americans.

    7. Repeal Would Likely Leave Less Capital for Investment
    Claims that eliminating the estate tax would encourage people to save and thereby make more capital available for investment do not take into account the impact on government borrowing. A Congressional Research Service report found that the estate tax’s net impact on private saving is unclear — it causes some people to save more and others to save less — and that its overall impact on national (private plus public) saving, a critical determinant of the amount of capital available for private investment, is likely positive. “f the only objective [of eliminating the estate tax] were increased savings,” the report concluded, “it would probably be more effective to simply keep the estate and gift tax and use the proceeds to reduce the national debt.”[19]

    The reason is simple: while repealing the estate tax might lead some people — especially heirs who would receive even bigger inheritances otherwise — to work and save more, it also would lead the government to borrow more to offset the lost revenue. Government borrowing “soaks up” capital that would otherwise be available for investment in the economy. In the case of estate-tax repeal, the added government borrowing would more than outweigh any added private saving, leaving the economy no better off and quite possibly worse off.[20]

    8. Compliance Costs Are Modest
    The public and private costs associated with estate tax compliance — including IRS costs to administer the tax and taxpayer costs for estate planning and administering an estate when a person dies — equaled about 7 percent of estate tax revenues in 1999.[21] That is within the range of compliance costs for other taxes. For instance, administrative and compliance costs equal about 14.5 percent of the revenue raised by the individual and corporate income taxes and about 2 to 5 percent of the revenue raised by sales taxes.[22] In addition, the number of individuals and estates that bear these costs has fallen markedly as the estate-tax exemption level has risen since 2001.

    Exaggerated estimates of estate tax compliance costs often incorrectly include the cost of activities that would be necessary even without an estate tax — hiring estate executors and trustees, drafting provisions and documents for the disposition of property, and allocating bequests among family members, for example. These activities account for about half of all costs sometimes associated with estate planning.[23]

    9. The United States Taxes Estates More Lightly Than Comparable Countries
    Twenty-six of the 34 members of the Organisation for Economic Co-Operation and Development levied some form of estate tax, inheritance tax, or other wealth or wealth transfer tax in 2014 (the latest year for which full data are available). U.S. estate and gift tax revenues at all levels of government were well below average among these 26 countries as a share of the economy.[24]

    10. The Estate Tax Is the Most Progressive Part of the U.S. Tax Code
    Because it affects only those who are most able to pay, the estate tax is the most progressive component of a tax code that overall is only modestly progressive, particularly when regressive state and local taxes are taken into account.[25] It is also the nation’s most effective tax policy tool to mitigate the negative effects of inheritances, which account for about 40 percent of household wealth and are extremely concentrated at the top. Because they are correlated with the parent’s economic outcomes and provide an alternative to earned income, inheritances likely limit intergenerational mobility.[26]

    The money the estate tax raises helps to fund essential programs, from health care to education to national defense. If the tax were further weakened or repealed, other taxpayers would have to foot the bill for these programs, face cuts in the benefits and services provided, or bear the burden of a higher national debt. Like other Americans, the very wealthy benefit from public investments in areas such as defense, education, health care, scientific research, environmental protection, and infrastructure. And they rely even more than others on the government’s protection of individual property rights, since they have so much more to protect. Bill Gates, Sr., a prominent advocate of retaining a strong estate tax, has explained that wealthy individuals benefit from the government because it “protects their business activities, the traditions that enable them to rely on certain things happening, that’s what creates capital and enables net worth to increase.”[27]

    It is appropriate that people who have prospered the most in this society help to preserve it for future generations through tax revenues that derive from their estates. As President Theodore Roosevelt stated in 1906, “the man of great wealth owes a particular obligation to the State because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government.”
     
  3. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    72,976
    Likes Received:
    10,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Never lost a case
    Location:
    Boston Legal
    Thanks for the lefty spam.

    It doesn't at all affect my opinion that nobody should pay that tax. Nobody.

    Rich or poor, makes no difference.
     
    HailBlazers, MarAzul and Aly like this.
  4. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    72,976
    Likes Received:
    10,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Never lost a case
    Location:
    Boston Legal
    I will counter this bit of nonsense:

    upload_2017-11-4_9-40-10.png

    The estate's capital gains WILL (or should) be taxed when the inheritors sell the assets.

    Capital gains affect homes, businesses, family heirlooms, and anything else of value that appreciate in value over time.

    The homes and businesses did pay taxes all along in the form of property tax and a whole myriad of taxes burdening businesses of all sizes. They will continue to pay taxes on the homes and businesses until sold. Then capital gains taxes will have to be paid.

    I see no benefit in taking away a family's artwork or great grandmother's wedding ring or anything else. AT ALL.
     
  5. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    34,043
    Likes Received:
    24,914
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Blazer OT board
    I'm not the one who came out with a tax proposal this week, that's the House Republicans.

    One way to tell the difference is that I'm a lot better looking.

    The existing law taxes estates over $5.5M. The House R proposal doesn't tax estates at all. No one proposed anything at all having to do with $1.8M estates. Yet you seem fixated on that number.

    barfo
     
  6. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    72,976
    Likes Received:
    10,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Never lost a case
    Location:
    Boston Legal
    I'm fixated on not taxing anyone, if possible.

    Thus I am fixated on not taxing estates of any size.

    It must really stick in your craw that the $billionaires are giving away their money rather than let the government take and spend it.
     
  7. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    34,043
    Likes Received:
    24,914
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Blazer OT board
    No, philanthropy doesn't bother me at all. I'd say good try, but it really wasn't.

    barfo
     
  8. Denny Crane

    Denny Crane It's not even loaded! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    May 24, 2007
    Messages:
    72,976
    Likes Received:
    10,655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Never lost a case
    Location:
    Boston Legal
    The point is if government was so good at spending the money, why not write big checks to the government? More than a nice try.

    EDIT: in fact, they're all colluding to deprive government of the ability to spend their life savings.

    https://givingpledge.org/
     
  9. barfo

    barfo triggered obsessive commie pinko boomer maniac Staff Member Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2008
    Messages:
    34,043
    Likes Received:
    24,914
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    Blazer OT board
    I'm pretty good at spending money, billionaires should give their money to me.

    Collusion is not a crime.

    barfo
     
  10. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    122,856
    Likes Received:
    122,852
    Trophy Points:
    115
  11. riverman

    riverman Writing Team

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2013
    Messages:
    67,843
    Likes Received:
    66,598
    Trophy Points:
    113
    The cuts to medicare are already hurting folks....the client I do transfers for on weekends is having his care hours cut in half....so if he has a cold, he'll have to live with a runny nose half the day now as he has no use of his hands....no one to transfer him to relieve himself....he's worried...just got a letter saying his care has been cut from 744 hour a month to 420 hours a month.....they have to build a wall somehow I guess...it pisses me off....Jan 1st he loses his night care and for someone without use of their hands or legs....this is a serious dent in the quality of life...he has no family to care for him
     
  12. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    122,856
    Likes Received:
    122,852
    Trophy Points:
    115
  13. dviss1

    dviss1 Emcee Referee

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    29,479
    Likes Received:
    27,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Fuck these republicans. FUCK THEM.
     
  14. dviss1

    dviss1 Emcee Referee

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2011
    Messages:
    29,479
    Likes Received:
    27,329
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Why in HOLY HELL do people not understand that this is wealth transfer from the poor to the rich???
     
    SportsAndWhine likes this.
  15. BrianFromWA

    BrianFromWA Editor in Chief Staff Member Editor in Chief

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    Messages:
    26,073
    Likes Received:
    9,027
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Legit question, because I don't know enough to feel strong enough to argue...

    How is it wealth transfer from poor to rich if almost nobody "poor" pays federal income tax? I mean, I'm with you a bunch if you say it's taking from the middle class to fund the rich (and poor, for that matter) but I don't see how you can say "poor to rich". In 2015, 150M returns brought in $1.47T in Income Taxes, an average of $10,000 paid in taxes per return.
    -But the lowest 51M returns paid no tax.
    -The next 33M returns by income bracket (over half of the "Taxable" returns, corresponding to $40K AGI and below), only $45B in tax was collected (an average of $1,378 per return) of a total of $1.47T...3%.
    (https://apl-webex.jhuapl.edu/orion/joinmeeting.do?MeetingKey=990334616, download the excel sheet. I used 2015)

    Those in the $40k-200k AGI category (31.4M returns, or 20% of the total # of returns) paid $9,344 per return...right about the median.
    Those in the 200k-to-1M AGI category (5.4M returns or 3.5% of the total # or returns) paid $72,000 per return.
    Those in the 1M-to-10M AGI category (420k returns) paid $626k per return
    Those in the 10M-and-greater AGI category (18k returns) paid $7.7M per return

    The richest 5% of the country (by AGI) pays 61% of our federal income taxes. The poorest 55% pays 3%, and the poorest 33% pay 0.

    Again, a question, not a challenge, but what is government-subsidized health care/welfare/medicare overruns/food stamps/etc (programs I'm not debating right here) but a transfer of the wealth of the middle-class and rich to those not paying any? Hell, you could probably lump in "military payroll" and "VA benefits" in there, since by-and-large we don't have many people making $200k or greater AGI in the military, and yet all of our salaries are paid for from taxes.

    What am I not understanding from your question?
     
  16. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    122,856
    Likes Received:
    122,852
    Trophy Points:
    115
  17. MarAzul

    MarAzul LongShip

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    21,370
    Likes Received:
    7,281
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Life is good!
    Location:
    Near Bandon Oregon
    How is it wealth transfer from poor to rich if almost nobody "poor" pays federal income tax?

    umm, this question will be waiting a long time for an answer.
     
  18. SlyPokerDog

    SlyPokerDog Woof! Staff Member Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2008
    Messages:
    122,856
    Likes Received:
    122,852
    Trophy Points:
    115
  19. KeepOnRollin

    KeepOnRollin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2010
    Messages:
    11,497
    Likes Received:
    5,679
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Location:
    North Idaho
    I am going to quote this just in-case dviss has you on block.
     

Share This Page