STEVE NASH LEGEND or just a crazy fast, good shooting, passing guy?

When I think of NBA legends .... I think of Wilt Chamberlein , Kareem Abdul Jabar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird etc etc .....Not to rub off Nash's shine... but I just cant put him in that class... This article is perty interesting Steve Nash - A HistoryABC demonstrated remarkable restraint in landing just shy of annointing Steve Nash as the great point guard in NBA history.Just shy.Anchor Mike Breen closed the broadcast of Sunday afternoon's 126-104 Suns win over Dallas by terming Nash a "legend,'' and adding that it is growing increasingly more difficult to argue the point.Maybe I'm just experienced bitter-loss face, but may I try to argue the point?DB.com reader Andrew, and the nationally-TV'ed meeting between the Mavs and the Big Balls of Hot Gas (BBHG), trigger this issue. Andrew suggests that the idea that Steve Nash is on some all-by-himself historic plateau as a point guard isn't even close to being true, and that is actually the beneficiary of playing in an era devoid of other great PGs.On the latter point, he may be right; in terms of proven greatness at PG right now, it's Nash and Kidd and maybe Billups? And that's about it. Still, that takes nothing away from Stevie's "legendary'' status. Nor does his fine 23-point, 11-assist effort in this game. Nor does the classy manner with which he carries himself. Check out this postgame quote:"Sometimes we play to the level of our competition. Tonight I give us high marks for energy and consistency. When we play well, no one is going to defend us well.''Confident, but classy. All from a day when all he really needed to be better than was opposite number Jason Terry, and maybe MVP rival Dirk Nowitzki. Again, none of it takes away from the "legend'' argument.But this might:On the former point, as Andrew notes, the late 80's and early '90's were overflowing with people who were Nash-like in terms of talent, production and stature (Nash is an 18-point/11-assist/3-rebound guy). And the large majority of them never got an MVP sniff. For instance:Let's try Kevin Johnson. He's not legendary, he was never an MVP candidate. But. ... check out his resume and his numbers ... KJ in his prime was a 6-1, 190-pounder who annually put up 20-point/11-assist/3-rebound seasons, was a three-time All-Star, was All-NBA second-team three times. ... Holy cow! KJ seems a mirror image of this guy we now tout as a "Greatest Player Ever'' but KJ's no legend.Let's try. ... hmmm. ... Mark Price. I don't remember Mark Price being considered a legend, do you? Yet the 6-0, 170-pound Price during his prime was a 17-point/9-assist/3-rebound guy.Not quite Nash, but. ... Holy cow again! Nash is just a smidge better than Mark Friggin' Price?So forget the comparison to John Stockton (in his prime a 17-point/14-assist/3-rebound guy). Maybe Gary Payton needs to be brought up here. Maybe Timmy Hardaway, too. Definitely Isiah Thomas. And somebody oughta remember that Magic Johnson actually played the position pretty well (and won titles): Magic was a 19.5-point/11.2-assist/7.2 rebound guy. And by the way, I didn't play the "in-his-prime'' game with Magic; those numbers come through ups and downs and youthful moments and aged moments. Those numbers are his overall CAREER stats.That's just sick -- and waaay out of Steve Nash's league.Forgetting the rules changes that make you wonder if a Kevin Johnson today would be a 26-ppg guy. And all of this makes me wonder if we can really select Steve Nash as the back-to-back-to-back MVP when his "specialness'' as a player -- minus the media gushing and the SportsCenter love -- puts him right up there historically with Kevin Johnson and Mark Price.source: Dallasbasketball.com

 

I can put him in the class of greatest point guards of all time

 

I admire Steve Nash. Love the Style of play he's been able to run with the Suns.I'm proud of him because he's a fellow Canadian.but I just can't picture his name being amongst the legends of the game who are 3 time MVP'sIt took him 4 years to reach double digits in scoring avg, something any other legend did right away.It took him 9 years to have a double digit assist avg too. Something the great point gaurds didn't take so long to do.Nash had benefitted from the freedom the Suns systems allows him. He's also probably the best gaurd to run this system too because he's unselfish (unlike Marbury who was there before him) and he's got a great outside shot (unlike Kidd who is a great passer but is lacking the shot)He probably deserves the MVP last year, but I think Kobe deserved it last year.problem is, who will take the title away from him???

 

Do you know what's best about him? It's that if he read this thread he would agree with Dirkenator. He's one of the best guys to be around in the NBA.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>He probably deserves the MVP last year, but I think Kobe deserved it last year.</div>wrong, no 50 wins = no MVP. period.As for Nash, he is what he is; a man who was a marginal allstar who became a top five player and an MVP for a couple years in his prime. A Bob McAdoo at the point guard position. That won't qualify as legend, but it will qualify as a damned good player who had a touch of greatness to him for a couple seasons.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (mikster100 @ Apr 5 2007, 09:07 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Do you know what's best about him? It's that if he read this thread he would agree with Dirkenator. He's one of the best guys to be around in the NBA.</div>That's true. He is the first person to laugh at himself and recognize what he did wrong. He is very humble and more concerned about others than himself.

 

[quote name='CelticFan' post='326520' date='Apr 5 2007, 08:04 AM']Nash had benefitted from the freedom the Suns systems allows him. He's also probably the best gaurd to run this system too because he's unselfish (unlike Marbury who was there before him) and he's got a great outside shot (unlike Kidd who is a great passer but is lacking the shot)[/quote]Everyone keeps on wanting to say "Nash is in a perfect system for him, that's why his numbers look so good." Which is true, the system he is in these days does compliment his abilities, however he is the reason that system looks good, and everyone played in a system that helped them show their abilities. Stocton played in a system that was set up for him and Karl Malone to do alot of damage together. Nash never had someone like Malone that stayed closer to the basket and allowed him to pass inside to like that. Michael Jordan played in that triangle offense that helped showcase his scoring ability through those 6 championship years. Magic Johnson played with a team that got out and ran, took alot of shots, and allowed his numbers to be inflated. Kobe Bryant today plays in that triangle offense that helps make him look good. So that system thing is not a good reason for taking away from him for the way he plays these days.[quote name='dirkenator' post='326417' date='Apr 5 2007, 12:22 AM']On the former point, as Andrew notes, the late 80's and early '90's were overflowing with people who were Nash-like in terms of talent, production and stature (Nash is an 18-point/11-assist/3-rebound guy). And the large majority of them never got an MVP sniff. For instance:[/quote]Alot of them also didn't switch teams, and suddenly be the leading factor in why that team won 50 plus games in two seasons. That is where his MVP came from, before he got to Phoenix that team won only 29 games. The next season after addding him that team won 62 games. Impact sometimes has as big of an award as stats do.

You also have to take into account that the time that KJ played and averaged those type numbers was the late 80's and early 90's when teams ran more and lots of other players in the league averaged those same type stats. These days no one else is racking up the type of assists that Nash has these past three years, nor have they ran the offense like Nash has. So that is going to make him look more like a deserving MVP because he is ruling his time. Using stats from different times of basketball to prove MVP's is kind of hard, because Wilt averaged 30 points and 22 rebounds per game. By your reasoning no one else should be MVP because no one else can average that. You have to look at impact, and Nash is much more of a perceived impact for his team than Johnson was at that time, because Johnson got there the same year Tom Chambers did which took away from it looking like he had the most to do with that teams turn around.

For the comparing Steve Nash and Magic Johnson stats, Nash never got to play his entire career in a wide open style like Magic Johnson got to, that helped Magic's stats to look good. Just look at the fact that Steve Nash never once played for a team that averaged over 105 points per game, until he came to the Suns. Meanwhile Magic Johnson never played for a team that ever averaged as low as 105 points per game, and only twice in his career played for a team that averaged below 110 points per game. Most of his career he enjoyed that wide open running style of the "Showtime Lakers." Once Steve Nash went to the Suns his numbers have started getting up there on par with Magic Johnson's numbers.Now I am in no way saying that I think he should be regarded as an NBA legend. I do believe however he was more than deserving of those last two MVP awards.

 

Steve Nash is most definately a legend in my eyes, he has a natural talent for the game, an all around great player, hot shooter, amazingly fast, his assists are crazy...And it all seems so natural to him..Legend IMO

 

I agree w/ Pestilence, he is a very good player, but not in the legend caliber yet.

 

Steve Nash to me is on his way to having a Hall of Fame career in the NBA. His court vision is right up there with John Stockton and Magic Johnson. I am hestitant to put Nash on that list but I really don't see any reason not to. Many say Nash has great teammates but Stockton had Malone and Johnson was with well, Showtime. Nash has a killer instinct at a level that few others in the NBA posses, Nash knows when he should take over the scoring role and when he should let his teammates dominate the game, and we all know that he can takeover a game wether it be by passing or scoring.

Nash is so much more than the stats. You look at the stats (20 PPG /10+ APG type numbers) and you see a talented superstar player, however you watch Nash and you see, well, a HoF type potential. Everyone on the court feeds off of Nash's play, he has the similarities to all the other legends that if you were to put Nash on any team in the NBA, that team would instantly improve drastically. We all saw what happened to the Suns when Nash went out. There other two supposed superstars couldn't carry the load of the Suns and they lost their close battle for 1st seed in the West with Dallas. (Not saying Amare/Marion aren't great players but this also does show how valuable Nash is).

However there are alot of questions surrounding Nash. Firstly Nash's defense is lacking at times, he doesn't completely slack off on the defensive end and isn't a horrid defender but isn't the greatest and that can be a burden on the defensive end. The other issue is how Nash would fare in a half-court offense at this point in his career. Nash has gotten pretty used to playing on the Suns run the floor type offense at this point, how would he fare in a Houston Rocket type offense. There is no doubt that he would still make his teammates better but it would be very interesting to see his game adapt to this situation and how well he makes that sort of an adaptation.

All in all, Nash is close to being a HoF'er but not quite there yet. Nash has improved every year even though he is 33 years old and no matter how old Nash is I still see him having 2-3 more years of great productivity to prove that he really did have a 'legendary' career which has to have a ring involved.

 

Father time will catch up to Nash's granny back if he plays as hard as he does in each game

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Apr 5 2007, 10:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Everyone keeps on wanting to say "Nash is in a perfect system for him, that's why his numbers look so good." Which is true, the system he is in these days does compliment his abilities, however he is the reason that system looks good, and everyone played in a system that helped them show their abilities. Stocton played in a system that was set up for him and Karl Malone to do alot of damage together. Nash never had someone like Malone that stayed closer to the basket and allowed him to pass inside to like that. Michael Jordan played in that triangle offense that helped showcase his scoring ability through those 6 championship years. Magic Johnson played with a team that got out and ran, took alot of shots, and allowed his numbers to be inflated. Kobe Bryant today plays in that triangle offense that helps make him look good. So that system thing is not a good reason for taking away from him for the way he plays these days.</div>MJ was scoring 37PPG before the triangle. Early last year when the Lakers weren't really running the triangle, Kobe was scoring like crazy. The problem with Nash is that this system is the only system he has really succeeded in. With the Mavs, he was a 13/8 kind of guy with a 46-48% FG %. With the Suns he is a 20/12 guy with a 50-55% FG %. That is a huge fluctuation in stats. Aside from Nash, there are 4 other guys on the Suns that you can make a case for being an all star-caliber player (Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Diaw), and then Bell, who will likely make a all-defensive team and is one of the best spot up 3pt shooters in the league. I am not trying to take away from Nash, as he has done as good of a job as a PG can do in the system he is in, but for people to bring it up when talking about Steve Nash is valid. Due to the system and players he has around him, he is allowed to go to basket and NO ONE on the defense can collapse. If they do, it is either an Amare dunk or spot up 3. Because of this, his assists and FG % are much higher than they would be if he was on most teams in the NBA. This, along with the fact that he doesn't play good defense, is why you can even bring up the arguement for another PG being the best in the NBA over Nash.As for how he will be remembered, he is one of the top 10 PG's of all time, and the next few years and a possible championship will dictate exactly where he will be ranked.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Apr 5 2007, 08:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>MJ was scoring 37PPG before the triangle. Early last year when the Lakers weren't really running the triangle, Kobe was scoring like crazy. The problem with Nash is that this system is the only system he has really succeeded in. With the Mavs, he was a 13/8 kind of guy with a 46-48% FG %. With the Suns he is a 20/12 guy with a 50-55% FG %. That is a huge fluctuation in stats. Aside from Nash, there are 4 other guys on the Suns that you can make a case for being an all star-caliber player (Amare, Marion, Barbosa, Diaw), and then Bell, who will likely make a all-defensive team and is one of the best spot up 3pt shooters in the league.</div>The Lakers from the beginning of the year ran the triangle offense last year, so I don't even know what the point you are trying to make is. Furthermore, his highest scoring games came later in the season, not in the beginning of the season. As for the Michael Jordan thing, he was a 37 point per game scorer, but he never won a championship until Phil Jackson put the triangle offense into place. Without that offense he was never able to win a championship. Magic Johnson came into a situation that any point guard could have done well in. Just look at how the year before he got there, Norm Nixon averaged 9 assists per game in that offense, as a second year player. He was able to have people like Kareem Abdul Jabar, Byron Scott, James Worthy, A.C. Green, and Michael Cooper around him. That's quite a lineup to have around you, and help with assists to. Now add to it, they ran alot and of course it's going to make Johnson's stats look good. Had you put him into a situation with that Mavericks team that didn't evolve around Nash's playmaking abilities, and in a time when teams ran much much less, Johnson's stats would have probably looked much the same. The fact is that everyone has played in systems that made them look good, and played with players that helped make them look good. To take away from Steve Nash because he didn't have the luxury of being in the same situations as the other people have for his whole career, is not a good reason to take away from what he is doing right now. He is the reason why that system looks so good, no other point guard in the league could step in and do what he is doing. Nor could many point guards in history step in and do what Steve Nash is doing with the Suns right now.

 

Steve Nash is definitely not a legend. I hate the fact that he gets two MVP's in a row, and is being strongly considered this year after the two prior years, the Suns havent made it to the finals, and they havent beaten an elite team in the playoffs. Steve Nash is the best PG in basketball right now, but he is no legend. His numbers are better because of who he plays with. I strongly believe that if you put a few other PG's on that team, they could all at least average 10 assists per game. Good point guard, but definatey not a legend. Maybe if he somehow wins a couple rings, and thats only a maybe.

 

The Suns finished as one of the last 4 teams the last two season, even with worse injuries than anyone else. WCF is elite and they did beat a very good Mavs and Clippers team too the last two years. The MVP is a regular season award and Nash deserves what he got, because he is the MvaluableP. No other player can run the team like he has...they could put up better stats than before, but they would not lead this team farther than Nash or do as good of a job as he has. A lot of legends didn't win a championship. I think he will, but that shouldn't be a deciding factor because he's not the reason we lost. He has been amazing in the playoffs. He's already a top 8 point guard to me and has a few more years to go. I don't know what you mean by legend, but top 100 player, probably top 50 if he continues this for another 2-3 years, of alll-time and one of the best point guards, yes.

 

[quote name='valo35' post='327308' date='Apr 6 2007, 10:14 AM']The Lakers from the beginning of the year ran the triangle offense last year, so I don't even know what the point you are trying to make is. Furthermore, his highest scoring games came later in the season, not in the beginning of the season.[/quote]The triangle wasn't truly being ran until the end of the season (and in the Suns series). The triangle is all about ball movement, and at the beginning of the year there was NONE. You know as well as I do that the triangle takes a long time for new players to learn, so in the meantime Kobe did his thing to keep team afloat. He was averaging 35PPG at beginning of the season, and averaged like 40PPG in December.

But he was a great scorer well before the triangle was put into place. The triangle didn't make MJ a great scorer, nor did it utilize his abilities as well as other systems could. It helped Pippen and the role players moreso than MJ. My point being is that these players can do the same things without the system that ultimately won them rings. Nash's 13/8 stats before arrving in Phoenix do not reflect this.

Umm, the Mavs were all about the run and gun offense. Magic was more versatile as both a scorer and playmaker than Nash, and due to his size, would have caused many mismatch problems. I doubt he wouldn't have had 1 season over 9APG like Nash, nor do I think he would have been kept in the 13PPG range.

He had the likes of Dirk, Antwan Jamison, Antoine Walker, among other very good players in Dallas. The fact of the matter is that while Steve Nash is hotwired to be the perfect PG to the Suns system, he also has 6 other players that are also absolutely perfect for the system. Judging by what Nash did pre-Suns, and now with the Suns, it is fair to say that the teammates and system have helped make him an MVP caliber player. For people to question Nash due to what he did pre-Suns and then with the Suns, I think it is a fair arguement.

 

How can you call someone who has never won a championship a legend?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J-Crew @ Apr 6 2007, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>How can you call someone who has never won a championship a legend?</div>Because a championship is a team accomplishment. I think it would help Nash's case, but you can be a legend without a championship.

 

Just a few things I want to say as I was reading through the thread:1. I'm tired of people saying that the system that Phoenix runs is what makes Nash so great and is the biggest reason he has won two straight MVP awards. If you're going to say that the system makes him great, then you have to look at it the other way as well. He is the reason they are able to implement that system and be successful with it! How many other point guards in this league could do that type of job in that system like Nash has done and currently is doing? Maybe only one or two, if even that (the obvious choice is Kidd). So as much as "the system they run makes him the player he is," he is also the reason they are so successful with that system.2. As far as the MVP award goes, I don't like how people try to hold it against Nash that he doesn't belong in the category of players who won three straight MVP awards. I mean come on, the MVP award is based on the MVP of the current season, and does not (and should not) take into account the amount or lack of postseason success, because that is the reason for the Finals MVP award. Now, just because he won the MVP award the past two years does not mean he should not win it again this year... just because people don't feel comfortable putting him in the same breath as Bill Russell, Wilt Chamberlain, and Larry Bird does not mean he shouldn't win the award for a third straight year. If he deserves, he deserves it. If he doesn't, he doesn't. But saying he shouldn't get it because he isn't as great as those players is ridiculous...

 

The system there running is the same system they ran in New Jersey when they have K-Mart and RJ with Kidd dishing out assists...and it does bring the PG's stats up quite a bit...making MVP quite possible...you couldn't put Nash on the Hawks and still think he would be MVP<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Because a championship is a team accomplishment. I think it would help Nash's case, but you can be a legend without a championship.</div>Ok and AI brought his team to the championship with pretty much no help...making him forever a Legend...if Nash was a good enough leader Suns would have a championship by now