Re: "White Guilt" Michael Bryants comments in the Sharpton thread got me thinking about this whole white guilt trip that Political correctness has pretty much imposed on the majority of society. Now it's no secret that I hate the whole PC nonesense, but I was wondering; do you we should have this white guilt in society today?before you answer I want you to read this though. throughout history humans have done some very bad things to other groups of humans for to many reasons to list. yet we always hear about the bad things that Caucasians have done, yet we rarely hear about the bad stuff other groups have done. we're all familiar with African slavery, the Haulicaust, the treatment of indiginous natives ect by white people, but we never hear the whole story, on in how most cases other members of whatever ethnic group gets nearly exterminated, that they were helped by others of their ethnic group.I'll give you some examples of this; when the Spanish invaded the Aztec empire, it's always told how big bad Cortez slaughtered millions of Aztecs. yet no one mentions the aid from the enemies of the Aztecs, and the woman called Mechica(sp?) without their help it's likely Cortez never would have succeeded in his conquest. the Aztecs were also one of the most vial and barbaric civilizations in history. they would rip the still beating hearts out of people, yet that seems to be acceptable because they aren't white.No one will ever admit that African slavery was not a white institution, but rather an African institution. Africans had been inslaving each other for centuries before any whites went and did the same thing. Infact the whites rarely went out and just captured an African, in most cases they bought already captured Africans from other Africans. The Benin, who are an African tribe who got real wealthy from the slave trade, had the 3rd largest army in the entire world in 1800, behind only France and Britian, not only did they have the third largest their army was the most well equipied in the world with the most modern firearms. The reason they got so many firearms is because they'd trade slaves for firearms, since they didn't value gold so much as Westerners did. If you got west Africa today and goto the old European fortresses, you will see that the batteries at not pointed in land, but rather to sea. this tells you that the Europeans didn't feel war was comming with any Africans, because if they felt war was possibly they'd have batteries pointing inland. if they were constantly going out capturing slaves, they would have to fear retribution for those tribes. Another thing which isn't mentioned is well before the Western Europeans entered into the slave trade, the Turks and Chinese were in it. Both of these groups made unics out of the males, that is they casterated them. most the males they did this too were between 8 and 22, and 9 out of 10 of them would die. Slavery also is still practiced in Africa, and in the mid east. yet we never here about the modern day african slave traders, we always hear about the Russian slave trades.The history books are full of bad things that whites did to Native Americans, how we stole their land, gave them diese, and murdered them. yet they hardly mention that the old fashion america tale of Cowboys and Indians is a crock of sh*t. in only a few cases was it cowboys and indians. in most cases in was cowboys, indians vs indians. the native tribes would settle their disputes by helping the army fight their rivals, so why aren't these bands of indians held accountable for their own demise?The Plague which ravaged Europe in 1347 was actually caused because of Mongol germ warfare. the mongols threw diesed bodies over the city walls in Odessa(rather I think it was Odessa) this caused the deaths of millions in Europe, the near east, the far east, and Africa. The Japanese will never admit to their war crimes in world war 2, yet their become all upset at the mention of the atom bombs and how that was a war crime. but they deny their treatment of POWs; their actions at Nanking were so repulsive that it made a senior Nazi officer cringe, a guy who have previously overaw the deathcamps; their diliberate attack on civilians with their balloon bombs which caused hugh forrest fires in Oregon they deny; they also don't like being thought of as the agressor in WWII dispite attacking the neutral nations of China, United States, Australia and possibly Mexico.These are just some of the cases showing that being vial and mean is a common human thread. so why does one race always seem to get the stigma of being the worst?So why should I have to appologize for what my ancestors did when those who are upset had ancestors who are just as guilty? my acestry is of Norse, Irish, Russian, and Creek, and they have been invoved in many gruesome events in history. but I didn't raid Lindisfarne, I didn't impail the brits at Killkenny, I wasn't involved with the massacre at Tabrizi, nor did I have slaves; but my ancestors probably did and I'm not going to appolgize for what they did. I'm sorry your ancestors went through those events, but this is life and life is hard and only the strongest survive. your ancestors were obviousy strong or you wouldn't be here today, can't you take consellation in that fact?PS anything that didn't make sense is because I'm tired and my brain is fried from doing math for 10 hours.
Re: "White Guilt" I agree, I hate how whites are hated on because of the things they did, when other races have done just as bad things.Even today you see Africans in Sudan committing genocide on their own people. That is even worse than slavery. You never hear anybody talk about those horrible actions. I have seen maybe 3 news stories on it and it wasn't in depth at all.Dude you need Firefox, it has spell check ha.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>No one will ever admit that African slavery was not a white institution, but rather an African institution. Africans had been inslaving each other for centuries before any whites went and did the same thing. Infact the whites rarely went out and just captured an African, in most cases they bought already captured Africans from other Africans.</div> Once again Redneck you hit it on the head. Nobody seems to know this. Racism and slaverly were obviously terrible, but it seems some black people just like to place the blame completely on the old white man.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>The Japanese will never admit to their war crimes in world war 2, yet their become all upset at the mention of the atom bombs and how that was a war crime. but they deny their treatment of POWs; their actions at Nanking were so repulsive that it made a senior Nazi officer cringe, a guy who have previously overaw the deathcamps; their diliberate attack on civilians with their balloon bombs which caused hugh forrest fires in Oregon they deny; they also don't like being thought of as the agressor in WWII dispite attacking the neutral nations of China, United States, Australia and possibly Mexico.</div>This I disagree with. The Japanese gave up a heck of a lot in pennance for their problems in the war and still are only allowed to have an army of 500 people. Every piece of legislation by them begins with "in the spirit of humility" and they are very apologetic to all the people they oppressed.I agree with what you're saying, redneck, but I believe that the reason for the "white guilt" is that whites are the richest people in the world now, and to the nondiscerning individual the only one who never had reprocussions.
Re: "White Guilt" The Japanese do seem fairly apologetic about their military actions, what I was talking about is their recent legislation to remove the travesties they commited during the war our of their history books.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Apr 16 2007, 02:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Japanese do seem fairly apologetic about their military actions, what I was talking about is their recent legislation to remove the travesties they commited during the war our of their history books.</div>well the US does the same thing, just to a lesser extent because we aren't all robots like most of the Japanese population so there are people who protest and force things to be changed.
Re: "White Guilt" I agree, people only remember and learn what they want to remember and learn. of course the white race hasnt been the kindest of races, but even until today innocent white people are being accused of stuff. I have a friend who is black, and he personaly told me that being black isnt as hard as black males say it is. I remember once this kid in my school(suburb school btw), was ranting on about how much stuff he goes through everyday and "if you walked in my shoes just once" and all that, basicly my black friend tore him up and pretty much proved that it was a load of bullsh**. Racism has gone on all through history, if you want to, you can find somewhere that a certain race abused another race....
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 16 2007, 01:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Once again Redneck you hit it on the head. Nobody seems to know this. Racism and slaverly were obviously terrible, but it seems some black people just like to place the blame completely on the old white man.</div>First off, you shouldn't feel guilt over what your ancestors did. Probably, you shouldn't feel guilt over how much YOU profit over what they did. It's a rightful legacy of ancestral hand me down comfort. Maybe even you shouldn't feel guilty over what is going on right now overseas. Sometimes, you blind white people are a trip. I'm amazed you have the gall to even have this discussion. I doubt if you're capable of feeling guilt in the first place.American history teaches us that the crimes of white on black didn't end with slavery, buddies. Political, economic, and educational power just wasn't enough for your greedy, sadistic ancestors. And it continues to this day with insidiously coded means and results.Slaves released after 2 centuries of spirit breaking psychological and physical abuse - no money, no vote, no education, no land. That's freedom all right. We started this race late, forced to run backward. Many of us are still trying to turn around to this day. Who the hell are we supposed to blame?It's still hard to be black and american. Guilt is too much to ask you cats. I'd appreciate a little education, though.
Re: "White Guilt" OMG just let it go, please. Maybe if we stopped talking about race issues, we wouldn't have debates and it wouldn't be a factor.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KobeBryant_24 @ Apr 16 2007, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>OMG just let it go, please. Maybe if we stopped talking about race issues, we wouldn't have debates and it wouldn't be a factor.</div>Isn't "ignore" the root word for ignorance? That's the biggest problem right there. Bigger than sex, class, war, race... If you're scared to look under the veil, then cleave to your momma's breast, shut up, and let the men throw blows. I mean, I can say what I want about redneck, something-to-say, pestilence, BCB, Justice, whoever, but I gotta at least respect them as men for honestly expressing themselves. If we keep the ideas ahead of our egos, debate will help us find answers and strengthen deserving convictions.
Re: "White Guilt" I work with someone who talked about this the other day. She went on and on how she 'goes out of her way to make black people feel welcome'. While I'm all for making people in general feel welcome, I will not be nice to someone simply for what my ancestors did to their ancestors. I will be nice to someone because I want to be, black or white. A lot of white people feel this way. They feel if they are 'really nice' to black people, somehow it makes up for slavery. But do SOME black people use this to their advantage? Absolutely.It's like me, because I'm German, being looked down upon because of the Holocaust. If I had ancestors there and they did unspeakable things to people, then so be it. I will not take the blame for what they did. I can only take blame for what I do in the present.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gentile @ Apr 16 2007, 08:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off, you shouldn't feel guilt over what your ancestors did. Probably, you shouldn't feel guilt over how much YOU profit over what they did. It's a rightful legacy of ancestral hand me down comfort. Maybe even you shouldn't feel guilty over what is going on right now overseas. Sometimes, you blind white people are a trip. I'm amazed you have the gall to even have this discussion. I doubt if you're capable of feeling guilt in the first place.American history teaches us that the crimes of white on black didn't end with slavery, buddies. Political, economic, and educational power just wasn't enough for your greedy, sadistic ancestors. And it continues to this day with insidiously coded means and results.Slaves released after 2 centuries of spirit breaking psychological and physical abuse - no money, no vote, no education, no land. That's freedom all right. We started this race late, forced to run backward. Many of us are still trying to turn around to this day. Who the hell are we supposed to blame?It's still hard to be black and american. Guilt is too much to ask you cats. I'd appreciate a little education, though.</div> Oh god, here we go....I make a simple point and you blow it up....Black people enslaved other black people, gave them to white people, and white people are always 100% the bad guy? Black people were just as bad. Nothing you said in your above post I didn't already know....obviously slavery has held black people back, 'appreciate a little education?'....blow it out your ass....
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 17 2007, 11:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh god, here we go....I make a simple point and you blow it up....Black people enslaved other black people, gave them to white people, and white people are always 100% the bad guy? Black people were just as bad. Nothing you said in your above post I didn't already know....obviously slavery has held black people back, 'appreciate a little education?'....blow it out your ass....</div>I thought I made it clear. I'm not just talking about slavery, I'm talking about a unique form of systematic oppression that continued for at least a century after slavery, and in my mind, continues to this day, albeit watered down. When your police, clergy, leaders and politicians devalue black lives with quiet officialdom, whose fault is it? Who do they work for - the majority.It's not an accident that today's million man march is in prison. It's not an accident that you can find a black ghetto in whatever area you go. I think as Americans we don't face this gruesome truth in a straightforward way. It's more convenient to ignore, and yes, profit by it.
Re: "White Guilt" All I was saying was....black people were enslaved by black people....and given to white people...black people should realize it's not completely white peoples faults....so...yeah...thats all I was saying....I was not talking about ignoring ghetto's or any of that other stuff.....
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 17 2007, 12:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All I was saying was....black people were enslaved by black people....and given to white people...black people should realize it's not completely white peoples faults....so...yeah...thats all I was saying....I was not talking about ignoring ghetto's or any of that other stuff.....</div>I feel most of that statement. I think most black people would agree with that. I'm just saying that there is a trail from the Emancipation of slaves to today, a legacy where we've been shoved aside and abused. I see more and more shorties giving in to barbarianism and it breaks my heart. Little nihilists that have never been given anything else but the next minute.It's stuff that's going on today, in the present, that we just don't know how to deal with. Most of us have given up on unraveling the riddle. Most of us just want to escape where we come from without trying to fix where we come from.So yeah, I want your "White Guilt." Get your dogs in check and embrace us like we're due. We ain't that different; we just behind a veil. That guilt has made it possible for me to be here - alive and educated. Abolitionist guilt, Emancipation guilt, Civil Right's guilt, Integration guilt...We might be one good guilt trip away from a problem to being solved.
Re: "White Guilt" [quote name='redneck' post='335956' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 AM']No one will amit that African slavery was not a white institution, but rather an African institution. Africans had been inslaving each other for centuries before any whites went and did the same thing. Infact the whites rarely went out and just captured an African, in most cases they bought already captured Africans from other Africans.[/quote]Portait of two Graeco-Egyptian lovers, dating back to 130-140 CE.Okay, first of all, let me start off by saying this is a crock of sh*t. I'll start off with slavery. Slavery has origins that pre-date the birth of Christ, they stretch far back into antiquity, in the Peloponnese on the island of Crete. Generally, when war broke out, the losing side would often supply the victor with a source of servitude ("prisoners of war"). The Minoans were eventually enslaved in 1450 B.C., when the Mycenaeans superceded their culture. This practice of "to the victor go the spoils" was also effected by the people of, Hellas (ancient Greece) and Rome. When the Macedonians conquered Egypt and the Middle East, I'm pretty sure you're familiar with the process that large parts of Alexander's conquests underwent. The Middle East would come to borrow many cultural practices that pertained to the people of Hellas - Alexander's vision was of a Hellenized world. So naturally, practices like slavery, and homosexuality (to which the Greeks are notorious for - see picture above) were introduced to the peoples of the Middle East and Northeast Africa.Slavery was really introduced to the people of sub-Saharan Africa during the Moslem invasian. The Arabs swept through the Sahara, spreading their culture, religion and language to the Berbers and farther south in the Sahel to the Manding peoples, who would later introduce Islam to other groups, like the Foulah. So really, slavery in Africa can be akinned to the Islamifying of the Northwest.[quote name='redneck' post='335956' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 AM']The Benin, who are an African tribe who got real wealthy from the slave trade, had the 3rd largest army in the entire world in 1800, behind only France and Britian, not only did they have the third largest their army was the most well equipied in the world with the most modern firearms. The reason they got so many firearms is because they'd trade slaves for firearms, since they didn't value gold so much as Westerners did. If you got west Africa today and goto the old European fortresses, you will see that the batteries at not pointed in land, but rather to sea. this tells you that the Europeans didn't feel war was comming with any Africans, because if they felt war was possibly they'd have batteries pointing inland. if they were constantly going out capturing slaves, they would have to fear retribution for those tribes.[/quote]Benin, or rather Dahomey, didn't have the third biggest army after France and England, the Bight of Benin was one of the more populated regions of Africa at the time, that's the only prominent feature the region had to offer, a region rich in potential slave stock. [quote name='redneck' post='335956' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 AM']Another thing which isn't mentioned is well before the Western Europeans entered into the slave trade, the Turks and Chinese were in it. Both of these groups made unics out of the males, that is they casterated them. most the males they did this too were between 8 and 22, and 9 out of 10 of them would die. Slavery also is still practiced in Africa, and in the mid east.[/quote]The Chinese and Ottomans were not involved in the slave trade, some slaves were shipped to the eastern Orient and Asia Minor, via Arabs who acquired slaves from the East African coast. Eunuchs were generally preferred by Arabs because they could not reproduce with either concubines or Arab females (the best way to keep a people in check is to cut off their ability to reproduce). As for slavery practiced in Africa, it goes with the territory (the Sahel is largely muslim). Anyway, it's a weak form more akin to indentured servitude and is by no means similar to the slavery that was practiced in the Americas.[quote name='redneck' post='335956' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 AM']yet we never here about the modern day african slave traders, we always hear about the Russian slave trades.[/quote]What the F*ck, when did anyone accuse Russians of being involved in the trans-atlantic slave trade? We hear about Russians forcing women into prostitution, which is a much more serious matter altogether, at least more so than indentured servitude. Obviously, this by no means justifies their having slaves, or their beliefs of superiority, but ignorance has a way of making people think less humanely. [quote name='redneck' post='335956' date='Apr 16 2007, 12:59 AM']The Plague which ravaged Europe in 1347 was actually caused because of Mongol germ warfare. the mongols threw diesed bodies over the city walls in Odessa(rather I think it was Odessa) this caused the deaths of millions in Europe, the near east, the far east, and Africa.[/quote]The Plague did have origins in the far east. But it wasn't from germ warfare, it was caused from a high-degree of rat flea exposure (I won't go into specifics). There is no indication of an outbreak in Africa, which would make sense, trade was largely conducted using caravans and not merchant ships. Trade between Africa and Asia was minimal, though not none existant.
Re: "White Guilt" I don't really think it's up to me or most white people to help the black community. Don't you think it's more up to them to change or better themselves?My family worked hard from rather bad beginnings, I worked through my problems as a child and now we are fine. Nobody helped us.
Re: "White Guilt" <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Apr 17 2007, 12:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't really think it's up to me or most white people to help the black community. Don't you think it's more up to them to change or better themselves?My family worked hard from rather bad beginnings, I worked through my problems as a child and now we are fine. Nobody helped us.</div>I don't want to lessen the significance of your personal struggles, but I'm not just talking about a family's problems, which is much easier to handle than a shared problem by millions of people.If you're really an American and you stand for justice, for everybody, then it's in your best interests to honestly look into this problem and make that decision for yourself. Your family hasn't been systemically abused because of their American origins. My family has and still in some vital ways, still is. We don't need alot of guilt. Just a wee bit more.None of the political strides that black people have made have been done in a vacuum. Even at our most unified, black people needed partnership and yes, white guilt, to make that next step. Liberal abolitionists guilted the northern states into opposing slave laws with very little help from black people, for instance. Television news cut it's teeth on the Civil Rights movement - allowing themselves to be beaten, hosed, and bitten by dogs to generate enough guilt to get fair voting laws passed and end segregation.We can't get these race baiting politicians off us because they're serving somebody. Are they serving you? We can't get these insane drug laws untied from our own necks and get our nonviolent offenders, our men, out of jail, which would slow AIDS in our community tremendously. It's population and political control at best, and slow genocide at worst. Only your guilt or sense of justice can help us prevail. America wouldn't stand for a third or fourth of white men being incarcerated, but it's ok for us? What does that make you?
Re: "White Guilt" Yes I know slavery was present in antiquity, Slavery probably started around the time of the first city-states. Genesis of the Bible talks about slavery, so it goes atleast as far back as then. Those practices existed long before the Greeks. The Egyptians have slaves(see above comment about Genesis), the Egyptians, Phoenicians(sp?), and Carthagians all would buy Numidian slaves, well before the conquest of Alexander. Again, slavery predates the Muslim invasion. the Muslims didn't start their conquest of Egypt, Cyrenecia, Mauritania until around 700 AD. those regions all had slave for centuries, we know this because there are hundereds of accounts of Numidian traders selling black slaves to Pre-Islamic civilizations that inhabited the region. I may have the name of the tribe wrong, but it is well documented that African tribal kings would sell their captured slaves to European merchants usually in exchange for guns. The guns would than go to arm the kings military. also, both Napoleon Bonaparte and King George sent emesarries(sp?) to Africa to try and ally themselves with the Africans to fight in the Wars in Europe. If you buy slaves you are involved in the slave trade. without a buyer for anything than the service dies off. The Ottomans were involved in it, and were quite active in the involvment. they'd send groups from their cities in Egypt down the nile to get slaves. I'm talking about right now. the Russians seem to be incontrol of the Eastern European slave trade which is taking place right now. the Slaver catch girls in Europe, send them to Mexico than into the US for either domestic purposes or for sexual purposes. I've seen about 16 shows on TV about this, yet I've hardly seen anything about the African slave trade which still exist in this country today. It spread rapidly because it found a good host in fleas, but the initial introduction of the plague came in 1346ish when the Mongols were attacking cities in Crimea, and they threw their infected dead over the city walls.
