<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Written by: D54Is a ball hog someone who jacks up a shot after shot after shot even if he gets a bulk of them in???...or is it when a player continually shoots after missing shots???Well I hate the term or to be honest its how/when and the way its used that bothers me. It appears most in 2 of my fav players and 2 of the players ive watched the most. Too often I hear people labeling KB a hog, and MJ a hog. I tend not to call any1 a hog, but I dnt mind saying this player is more of a hog then that player as it is provable.The point of this thread is to put to rest people that say that MJ is a hog, now I myself used to think this to a certain degree but seeing the likes of AI and KB the last 10 years I tend to see why, in comparison MJ isnt. However this does not mean KB or AI are ballhogs it just comes down to opinion. The people that call MJ a hog the most are Kobe fans. Since KB is supposed to be the next MJ and apparently MJ is a ballhog and KB isnt, I decided to use KBs big years and MJs equivalent years to compare...Here's how it works...I have graphed the games where MJ and KB hav taken a lot of shots (FGA) made a lot of shots (FG) and missed a lot of shots (FG's missed)It only covers games from the last 4 years for both Kobe and Jordan (ages 24-28)Kobe: 02-03, 03-04, 04-05, 05-06Jordan: 87-88, 88-89, 89-90, 90-91Each colored box represents 1 game, unless indicated (eg "22 games")Kobe clearly has put up more shots in a single game more frequently.Yet Jordan has a much better set of FGs made.When it comes to misses it's Kobe who comes through on top...I find this is pretty definitive, its also noteworthy that in this time MJ had more 50pt games than KB (12-9) and more 40-49pt games (54-50)...and also 30-39pt games (way too many)Now u know to never tag MJ a ball hog, unless u tag Kobe worse</div>
Look at Jordan's Bulls and look at Kobe's Lakers. Jordan never had to make that many shots once Scottie came in. Kobe is forced to score 45 for the Lakers to win a playoff game.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Apr 29 2007, 01:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Look at Jordan's Bulls and look at Kobe's Lakers. Jordan never had to make that many shots once Scottie came in. Kobe is forced to score 45 for the Lakers to win a playoff game.</div>Well Said. And another thign about it is the fact that Kobe is starting to peak now. Not when the stats are used - Base Kobe's on his last 2 seasons to be fairer in regards to "games over 50 point scored and so on.
Not again with the Kobe/Jordan stuff come on when is this gonna end.GeezzzzzzzKobe is great, but to have him in the same sentence as Jordan should not happen. The dude is like 20-25 best not even top 10 not even top 15.Like for real so many Kobe/Jordan threads all the time or talk.
Early in MJ's career, he was a ballhog.Later in MJ's career, he was not a ballhog (although he still had a scorer's mentality)Early in KB's career, he was a ballhog.During the Laker's three championship run, he was generally not a ballhog.After Shaq left, Kobe pretty much needed to be a ballhog, although can still to this day get way out of control at times.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Serge @ Apr 29 2007, 03:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'> Not again with the Kobe/Jordan stuff come on when is this gonna end.GeezzzzzzzKobe is great, but to have him in the same sentence as Jordan should not happen. The dude is like 20-25 best not even top 10 not even top 15.Like for real so many Kobe/Jordan threads all the time or talk.</div>Kobe Bryant is top 10 all time player material hands down. You can say he didnt win a ring without Shaq, but he does have 3 rings under his belt. Mark him for MVP one season and he is without a doubt up there with Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Apr 29 2007, 08:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe Bryant is top 10 all time player material hands down. You can say he didnt win a ring without Shaq, but he does have 3 rings under his belt. Mark him for MVP one season and he is without a doubt up there with Jordan.</div>Its funny how underappreciated Michael Jordan is.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (KMart? @ Apr 29 2007, 07:09 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Its funny how underappreciated Kobe Bryant is.</div>Fixed.and BTW Kobe is Great but Michael Jordan is the Greatest. So I am not biased in that way. I have respect for Michael and I know he is a better overall player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RaptorFan#1 @ Apr 29 2007, 05:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe Bryant is top 10 all time player material hands down. You can say he didnt win a ring without Shaq, but he does have 3 rings under his belt. Mark him for MVP one season and he is without a doubt up there with Jordan.</div>He's not close to being a top 10 player of all time yet. I predict him to be a top 15 player once his career is done. There have been a lot of really great players, he'd need to win a championship or 2 as a leader to even be close to MJ. That's when there should even be comparisons, because right now it's MJ, easily. He may get a chance soon enough, but right now he's not close, even if he wins an MVP I wouldn't put him up there.
heheh, The admin puts an article in the wrong forum when there's a thread to the same effect open :thumbdn1: :adminpower:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ASUFan22 @ Apr 29 2007, 10:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He's not close to being a top 10 player of all time yet. I predict him to be a top 15 player once his career is done. There have been a lot of really great players, he'd need to win a championship or 2 as a leader to even be close to MJ. That's when there should even be comparisons, because right now it's MJ, easily. He may get a chance soon enough, but right now he's not close, even if he wins an MVP I wouldn't put him up there.</div>Didn't you agree a few months ago that Kobe was already top 15? I remember agreeing with you... Well, it is my opinion that he is already around the top 15 mark and will be top 10 by the end of his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Apr 29 2007, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Didn't you agree a few months ago that Kobe was already top 15? I remember agreeing with you... Well, it is my opinion that he is already around the top 15 mark and will be top 10 by the end of his career.</div>I few months ago I said he was in the top 20, near the top 15 and by the end of his career he'd be near the top 10, but not quite there because I don't expect a championship. You sort of agreed with me, but I think you had him a few spots higher putting him in the top 10. If that's not what I said, it's still pretty close to what I said and that's what I think now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Apr 29 2007, 10:48 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Didn't you agree a few months ago that Kobe was already top 15? I remember agreeing with you... Well, it is my opinion that he is already around the top 15 mark and will be top 10 by the end of his career.</div>it all depends on if he ever gets a good second option or keeps being a 30-35 ppg scorer on a barely playoff team.
I've noticed that the only people who don't see Kobe as top 10 of all time are either Sun's fan are idiots(I.e. Serge). I find that interesting...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Apr 29 2007, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I've noticed that the only people who don't see Kobe as top 10 of all time are either Sun's fan are idiots(I.e. Serge). I find that interesting...</div>No one in this thread has him in the top 10 yet except for the Raptorfan. A lot of people believe he will be when his career is done. I don't think he'll win a championship and so I say he won't be a top 10 player, but close to it.
I believe he's top 10 of all time. I don't see how you can hold not having a ring as the leader of the Lakers against him. No player can win a ring by himself and it's not Kobe's fault that he doesn't have a good supporting cast. Kobe is easily one of the 10 most talented players of all time, he has tons of individual accomplishments, and he also has the killer instinct, clutch abilities, leadership, etc. The only things you can hold against him is not winning a ring by himself and not winning an MVP award yet but you can't even hold not having an MVP award against him. Like I said w/o help no player can make his team a top team in the league so Kobe can't win it unless he gets some better help.
I didn't say by himself. I said as a leader. Shaq won it as the leader, not by himself. Duncan won it as a leader and is slightly ahead of Kobe all-time, imo. MJ won as a leader, Magic did...I'm not saying he has to do it alone. It's not hard to win a championship with a guy like Shaq in his prime. Put any superstar with him and those role players and that coach and they'd win it. To be a top 10 player I feel like you should be able to do that. Kobe put himself in this position because he wanted to be the #1 guy and he has to deal with it. Kobe will win an MVP or two and that'll put him in my top 15 nearing the top 10, but until he can show the leadership that MJ did and win a championship then I wouldn't put him in the top 10.
So your saying Kobe doesn't have good leadership because he doesn't have a top 50 player of all time as his 2nd option like Pippen? Jordan also had Rodman, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, etc. You act like Jordan won those rings by himself. Your saying Kobe should be able to win a ring by himself but no other top 10 player of all time has been able to do that other than Wilt.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Apr 29 2007, 05:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So your saying Kobe doesn't have good leadership because he doesn't have a top 50 player of all time as his 2nd option like Pippen? Jordan also had Rodman, Steve Kerr, Horace Grant, etc. You act like Jordan won those rings by himself. Your saying Kobe should be able to win a ring by himself but no other top 10 player of all time has been able to do that other than Wilt.</div>I said he doesn't have to win one by himself. He has plenty of time left and knowing the Lakers they will be building a sufficient team for him that he should take pretty far in a few years. I get what you're saying, but I'm not about to award a player for being a big part of the reason why he doesn't have the help right now. He hasn't shown to be much of a leader besides this year and the first round last year when he started to get his teammates more involved and tried to make them better. Scoring and inconsistent, but very good defense alone won't put him in the top 10. He needs to prove that he can win for him to really be a top 10 player to me. If he has 5 more years like this, wins a couple MVP's and the Lakers fail to put a decent team around him then I probably will change my mind because that'll be 6 or 7 years in a row were he would have scored 30 or more and been a great teammate. Then that'll be too much to keep out of the top 10. He hasn't proven to be great enough for that label yet. I think it's a bit premature to say that he is a top 10 player of ALL-TIME right now.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Apr 29 2007, 07:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I believe he's top 10 of all time. I don't see how you can hold not having a ring as the leader of the Lakers against him. No player can win a ring by himself and it's not Kobe's fault that he doesn't have a good supporting cast. Kobe is easily one of the 10 most talented players of all time, he has tons of individual accomplishments, and he also has the killer instinct, clutch abilities, leadership, etc. The only things you can hold against him is not winning a ring by himself and not winning an MVP award yet but you can't even hold not having an MVP award against him. Like I said w/o help no player can make his team a top team in the league so Kobe can't win it unless he gets some better help.</div>No one is holding it against Kobe, but it is an additional accomplishment that will push him up there with with the top 5 all time. When discussing individuals, and ranking them with the best all time, you have to look at individual accomplishment. Leading is an individual attribute, and while Kobe hasn't had much of a chance at leading a team to a ring, it doesn't mean we can give him a pass to the top 5 or so with the likes of MJ, Wilt, Magic, etc... With that said, Kobe is a top 15 player all time already, and I want to see him do this stuff a few more years before I put him in the top 10. Another championship, then I'd consider him top 5 all time.
