I am a Big Lakers fan but im not crazy Kobe Bryant my favroite player ever is not better then MJ and never will be MJ had just something about him that puts him on a diffrent level then any of the rest. Kobe is already top 10 greatest and will move up even farther when he gets a couple more scoring titles and at least 1 MVP. Kobe will be able to get a championship again but not alone there wasnt a player in history that won a championship w/o some support. Even MJ had Pippen, the most valuable peace on that Chicago team next to Jordan.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LaFanDawg @ Apr 29 2007, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I am a Big Lakers fan but im not crazy Kobe Bryant my favroite player ever is not better then MJ and never will be MJ had just something about him that puts him on a diffrent level then any of the rest. Kobe is already top 10 greatest and will move up even farther when he gets a couple more scoring titles and at least 1 MVP. Kobe will be able to get a championship again but not alone there wasnt a player in history that won a championship w/o some support. Even MJ had Pippen, the most valuable peace on that Chicago team next to Jordan.</div>Kobe is in no freakin way top 10 greast right now. NO WAYI agree with (ASUFan22)Kobe is my 2nd fav player behind Iverson, but if AI is not top 10-15 and he is NOT then Kobe is not top 10-15 either. Give me a freakin break people need to stop the crap over underrating Jordan, and overrating Kobe. Kobe has done NOTHING I repeat NOTHING that Iverson has not done except the 3 titles and that is Shaq he was the leader Kobe was big, but with out Shaq he would not have been close to those titles so give me a break, and with out Kobe Shaq still had a chance. I don't count AI top 10/15 so there is not way Kobe should be up there when he has yet to do even as much as Iverson out side the 3 rings let along Jordan that is stupidty right there talking Kobe/Jordan when this guy is not even done more then AI when you take out the 3 rings Kobe got WITH Shaq. Sorry, but it's true you take away the 3 title he got cause Shaq was there he has done pretty much 0 except 81 and a few 60 point games and 2 scoring titles that be not even like top 50 then.Hey I like Kobe my 2nd fav player he is awsome. But this crap with Jordam is not fair. And saying he is already top 10-15 is not fair when if you think about it out side the 3 rings he got with Shaq AI is WAY better over his career so far.Sorry but the dude has done nothing with out Shaq really except 2 scoring titles a 81 point game and a few 60's. HmmAnd to those who say he don't have anybody around him same thing in Iverson's case yet he has done more by him self then Kobe has for now. Yet I don't go around putting Iverson in the top 10-15.For real people think about what he has done with out Shaq 3 rings. If you sit there and think about it you would see AI has done WAY MORE by him self then Kobe, and he is not no top 10-15 so I am tired of people saying that about Kobe. So I think he be top 10-15 by the end of his career? Yes top 15 FOR SURE probably around 10 even. But right now he is more in the 20-25 range and people need to really sit down and think about this hard. He sure will be top 10-15, but right now he is deff NOT. Right now he is around 20-25.I really thought about it, and this is why I am making this post. And I really like Kobe's game he is my 2nd fav player so not like I am bashing the guy. But Kobe top 10-15 already? NO FREAKIN WAY people really need to think about it.Iverson was top 10 in MVP voting for 7 seasons out of his 11 year nba career. I think 4 times was he top 5 in voting in his nba career. And everyone knows the rest of what he has done. Now that is not top 10-15 yet so why should Kobe be top 10-15 out side of his titles and people need to think that Shaq was the guy it was not like Kobe won those titles for them. Think about with out Kobe how far they would have went those 3 years, and think about with out Shaq were they be those 3 years.Ah sorry, but this just get's anyoing now. :no1:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Serge @ Apr 30 2007, 02:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe is in no freakin way top 10 greast right now. NO WAYI agree with (ASUFan22)Kobe is my 2nd fav player behind Iverson, but if AI is not top 10-15 and he is NOT then Kobe is not top 10-15 either. Give me a freakin break people need to stop the crap over underrating Jordan, and overrating Kobe. Kobe has done NOTHING I repeat NOTHING that Iverson has not done except the 3 titles and that is Shaq he was the leader Kobe was big, but with out Shaq he would not have been close to those titles so give me a break, and with out Kobe Shaq still had a chance. I don't count AI top 10/15 so there is not way Kobe should be up there when he has yet to do even as much as Iverson out side the 3 rings let along Jordan that is stupidty right there talking Kobe/Jordan when this guy is not even done more then AI when you take out the 3 rings Kobe got WITH Shaq. Sorry, but it's true you take away the 3 title he got cause Shaq was there he has done pretty much 0 except 81 and a few 60 point games and 2 scoring titles that be not even like top 50 then.Hey I like Kobe my 2nd fav player he is awsome. But this crap with Jordam is not fair. And saying he is already top 10-15 is not fair when if you think about it out side the 3 rings he got with Shaq AI is WAY better over his career so far.Sorry but the dude has done nothing with out Shaq really except 2 scoring titles a 81 point game and a few 60's. HmmFor real people think about what he has done with out Shaq 3 rings. If you sit there and think about it you would see AI has done WAY MORE by him self then Kobe, and he is not no top 10-15 so I am tired of people saying that about Kobe. So I think he be top 10-15 by the end of his career? Yes top 15 FOR SURE probably around 10 even. But right now he is more in the 20-25 range and people need to really sit down and think about this hard. He sure will be top 10-15, but right now he is deff NOT. Right now he is around 20-25.I really thought about it, and this is why I am making this post. And I really like Kobe's game he is my 2nd fav player so not like I am bashing the guy. But Kobe top 10-15 already? NO FREAKIN WAY people really need to think about it.Iverson was top 10 in MVP voting for 7 seasons out of his 11 year nba career. I think 4 times was he top 5 in voting in his nba career. And everyone knows the rest of what he has done. Now that is not top 10-15 yet so why should Kobe be top 10-15 out side of his titles and people need to think that Shaq was the guy it was not like Kobe won those titles for them. Think about with out Kobe how far they would have went those 3 years, and think about with out Shaq were they be those 3 years.</div>Oh, so I guess in your mind AI is a better player than Kobe? <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>And to those who say he don't have anybody around him same thing in Iverson's case yet he has done more by him self then Kobe has for now. Yet I don't go around putting Iverson in the top 10-15.</div>What? What has Iverson done more for his team than Kobe has on his own? Besides MVP, I am talking about with his team.If you are going to talk about going to the finals with the 76ers, than you really can't compare that team to this Kobe led Lakers. Not only did that Philly team have the Defensive Player of the Year, but also the Coach of the Year and a load of veterans that knew how to win and wanted to win bad. The Lakers on the other hand are very young and really only have one veteran besides Kobe(I guess) and that's Aaron Mckie. I don't know, there are too many differences to compare the Iverson led teams to the Kobe teams of now. I still don't see what Iverson has done with his teams that Kobe hasn't.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Serge @ Apr 30 2007, 02:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Kobe is in no freakin way top 10 greast right now. NO WAYI agree with (ASUFan22)Kobe is my 2nd fav player behind Iverson, but if AI is not top 10-15 and he is NOT then Kobe is not top 10-15 either. Give me a freakin break people need to stop the crap over underrating Jordan, and overrating Kobe. Kobe has done NOTHING I repeat NOTHING that Iverson has not done except the 3 titles and that is Shaq he was the leader Kobe was big, but with out Shaq he would not have been close to those titles so give me a break, and with out Kobe Shaq still had a chance. I don't count AI top 10/15 so there is not way Kobe should be up there when he has yet to do even as much as Iverson out side the 3 rings let along Jordan that is stupidty right there talking Kobe/Jordan when this guy is not even done more then AI when you take out the 3 rings Kobe got WITH Shaq. Sorry, but it's true you take away the 3 title he got cause Shaq was there he has done pretty much 0 except 81 and a few 60 point games and 2 scoring titles that be not even like top 50 then.Hey I like Kobe my 2nd fav player he is awsome. But this crap with Jordam is not fair. And saying he is already top 10-15 is not fair when if you think about it out side the 3 rings he got with Shaq AI is WAY better over his career so far.Sorry but the dude has done nothing with out Shaq really except 2 scoring titles a 81 point game and a few 60's. HmmAnd to those who say he don't have anybody around him same thing in Iverson's case yet he has done more by him self then Kobe has for now. Yet I don't go around putting Iverson in the top 10-15.For real people think about what he has done with out Shaq 3 rings. If you sit there and think about it you would see AI has done WAY MORE by him self then Kobe, and he is not no top 10-15 so I am tired of people saying that about Kobe. So I think he be top 10-15 by the end of his career? Yes top 15 FOR SURE probably around 10 even. But right now he is more in the 20-25 range and people need to really sit down and think about this hard. He sure will be top 10-15, but right now he is deff NOT. Right now he is around 20-25.I really thought about it, and this is why I am making this post. And I really like Kobe's game he is my 2nd fav player so not like I am bashing the guy. But Kobe top 10-15 already? NO FREAKIN WAY people really need to think about it.Iverson was top 10 in MVP voting for 7 seasons out of his 11 year nba career. I think 4 times was he top 5 in voting in his nba career. And everyone knows the rest of what he has done. Now that is not top 10-15 yet so why should Kobe be top 10-15 out side of his titles and people need to think that Shaq was the guy it was not like Kobe won those titles for them. Think about with out Kobe how far they would have went those 3 years, and think about with out Shaq were they be those 3 years.Ah sorry, but this just get's anyoing now. :no1:</div>Oh god
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LakersFan247 @ Apr 30 2007, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh, so I guess in your mind AI is a better player than Kobe? What? What has Iverson done more for his team than Kobe has on his own? Besides MVP, I am talking about with his team.If you are going to talk about going to the finals with the 76ers, than you really can't compare that team to this Kobe led Lakers. Not only did that Philly team have the Defensive Player of the Year, but also the Coach of the Year and a load of veterans that knew how to win and wanted to win bad. The Lakers on the other hand are very young and really only have one veteran besides Kobe(I guess) and that's Aaron Mckie. I don't know, there are too many differences to compare the Iverson led teams to the Kobe teams of now. I still don't see what Iverson has done with his teams that Kobe hasn't.</div>Over all in his career yes. I am in now way saying RIGHT NOW. Over all during his career AI has done more out side the 3 titles yes. He took his team past the first round by HIM SELF not with Shaq. And he took a team to the finals BY HIM SELF not with Shaq. AI was not far of in rebounding from Kobe even though there is half a foot rebouding diff. And assists AI set his guys up Kobe not so much. Until lately he did not set his team up until the last 2 years. Steals also in it, and there are so much other stuff he has done Kobe has not.Dude Lakers have Phil Jackson one of the best coach ever don't tell me we had coach of the year he only won it cause AI took the team by him self far. I mean he did do a great job, but Phil Jackson is on the Lakers so enough with the coach part this is just total bs right there. ^^^ I said what he has done and Kobe has not he took his team out of the first round for one, and then also a finals by him self. And Yeah I know West is tough, and stuff but still. And Odom is a really really good 2 when healthy so you got a 2 AI did not have that true 2nd guy when he went to the finals or at all really Webber was to old by the time he was here.If you break it down dude with out the 3 titles Kobe has in no way shape or form has done more then AI over the whole career. I am not saying Iverson is better now that be stupid he is like 5th best in league right now 7th at worse Kobe is the #1 right now, but over all AI with out the titles no question has had a better career that is why it get's me mad putting Kobe in top 10-15 FOR NOW down the road sure he will be, but not right now.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268 @ Apr 30 2007, 10:24 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oh god </div>Dude look at both there careers for god sake and stop looking at the 3 titles it was Shaq's team with out Shaq think were they be. And think were they be with out Kobe. Like for real some people just need to sit down and think about this cause if you take out the 3 titles AI has clearly had the better career so far.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Serge @ May 1 2007, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Over all in his career yes. I am in now way saying RIGHT NOW. Over all during his career AI has done more out side the 3 titles yes. He took his team past the first round by HIM SELF not with Shaq. And he took a team to the finals BY HIM SELF not with Shaq. AI was not far of in rebounding from Kobe even though there is half a foot rebouding diff. And assists AI set his guys up Kobe not so much. Until lately he did not set his team up until the last 2 years. Steals also in it, and there are so much other stuff he has done Kobe has not.Dude Lakers have Phil Jackson one of the best coach ever don't tell me we had coach of the year he only won it cause AI took the team by him self far. I mean he did do a great job, but Phil Jackson is on the Lakers so enough with the coach part this is just total bs right there. ^^^ I said what he has done and Kobe has not he took his team out of the first round for one, and then also a finals by him self. And Yeah I know West is tough, and stuff but still. And Odom is a really really good 2 when healthy so you got a 2 AI did not have that true 2nd guy when he went to the finals or at all really Webber was to old by the time he was here.If you break it down dude with out the 3 titles Kobe has in no way shape or form has done more then AI over the whole career. I am not saying Iverson is better now that be stupid he is like 5th best in league right now 7th at worse Kobe is the #1 right now, but over all AI with out the titles no question has had a better career that is why it get's me mad putting Kobe in top 10-15 FOR NOW down the road sure he will be, but not right now.Dude look at both there careers for god sake and stop looking at the 3 titles it was Shaq's team with out Shaq think were they be. And think were they be with out Kobe. Like for real some people just need to sit down and think about this cause if you take out the 3 titles AI has clearly had the better career so far.</div>Ok...so how about those years with the 76ers when AI couldn't lead his team to the playoffs? Kobe missed the playoffs ONCE with or without Shaq. Since then Kobe has been able to carry this team on his back and into the playoffs. Oh, but I guess because Iverson led the 76ers to the finals in 2001 you can forget about the other seasons when AI couldn't make the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Serge @ May 1 2007, 12:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Over all in his career yes. I am in now way saying RIGHT NOW. Over all during his career AI has done more out side the 3 titles yes. He took his team past the first round by HIM SELF not with Shaq. And he took a team to the finals BY HIM SELF not with Shaq. AI was not far of in rebounding from Kobe even though there is half a foot rebouding diff. And assists AI set his guys up Kobe not so much. Until lately he did not set his team up until the last 2 years. Steals also in it, and there are so much other stuff he has done Kobe has not.Dude Lakers have Phil Jackson one of the best coach ever don't tell me we had coach of the year he only won it cause AI took the team by him self far. I mean he did do a great job, but Phil Jackson is on the Lakers so enough with the coach part this is just total bs right there. ^^^ I said what he has done and Kobe has not he took his team out of the first round for one, and then also a finals by him self. And Yeah I know West is tough, and stuff but still. And Odom is a really really good 2 when healthy so you got a 2 AI did not have that true 2nd guy when he went to the finals or at all really Webber was to old by the time he was here.If you break it down dude with out the 3 titles Kobe has in no way shape or form has done more then AI over the whole career. I am not saying Iverson is better now that be stupid he is like 5th best in league right now 7th at worse Kobe is the #1 right now, but over all AI with out the titles no question has had a better career that is why it get's me mad putting Kobe in top 10-15 FOR NOW down the road sure he will be, but not right now.Dude look at both there careers for god sake and stop looking at the 3 titles it was Shaq's team with out Shaq think were they be. And think were they be with out Kobe. Like for real some people just need to sit down and think about this cause if you take out the 3 titles AI has clearly had the better career so far.</div>Dude it's not just leadership you have to look at. You also have to take skill into consideration. Kobe is better than AI in almost every single aspect of the game. That's what you don't get.
I hate all these stupid comparisons between them. There are obvious circumstances for all these numbers. I'm tried of the comparisons and stupid people coming up with statistics to sway the argument one way. Statistics should have nothing to do with it at all. Ugh.
What a surprize, Serge somehow derailed this topic discussion into involving Iverson his favorite player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (iversonfan268)</div><div class='quotemain'>Your saying Kobe should be able to win a ring by himself but no other top 10 player of all time has been able to do that other than Wilt.</div>LOL, if you think that Wilt won a ring by himself you need to check your facts. He had STACKED teams when he won his rings. In '68 he had hal greer, chet walker, and billy cunningham on his team. In '72 he had Jerry West, Gail Goodrich, and Jim MicMillian, not to mention the underrated Happy Hairston.If you want to see a player winning it without great help you can start and end with Rick Barry.
I dont know why people talk about how kobe couldnt win one without shaq when MJ has always had great teams around him. Kobe is the greatest, he is capable of doing anything he wants whenever, I personaly have always felt kobe has held back and doesn't do what he can because he doesn't want that bad image put to him, he scores 40, called ballhog, Jordan scores 40, greatness, especially when Jordan had people around him that could score 40 as well, and Kobe has...................? NOBODY, Jump of MJ's *#@!
[quote name='Serge' post='346882' date='May 1 2007, 02:28 AM']Over all during his career AI has done more out side the 3 titles yes.[/quote]So, you're just going to throw away 3 titles from Kobe's legacy? Hmm.... And he has only been on his own with him as sole leader for 3 years, 1 of them he was injured, the next he brought a team FAR better than the Sizers ever had to face in the East to 7 games (along with averaging 35PPG), and this year was once again brilliant with 32/6/5. He was robbed of MVP last year, has carried a lackluster team with many injuries to 2 straight playoff appearences in the TOUGH West, all star MVP, 2 all-defensive first teams.....don't tell me he hasn't done anything without Shaq. AI took a team with a perfect cast around him and COY to the Finals. He didn't do it by himself because, as you have seen the past few years, AI's scoring alone maybe gets you to the 1st round. He had a DPOY in Mutombo among other great role players (and an awesome coach who was perfect for their personel).AI is a 3-4RPG rebounder, Kobe is 5-7RPG. Kobe is the better reounder.Kobe was THE playmaker for the 3-peat Lakers. He was always at 5-7APG, right where AI has always been. But, with Shaq on the team demanding the ball, Kobe never had the ball in his hands as much as AI did.What good are steals when it, many times, costs you as a defender? AI's steals haven't gotten him onto half as many all-defensive team selections. AI had 11 years to take his team out of the first round...Kobe has had 3, and in a M-U-C-H tougher conference in which the top 3 teams are just dominant. And it has been quite awhile since AI has sniffed the 2nd round.Odom is not a good fit for the Lakers. He is not agressive, the coaches don't trust him as a playmaker, and he just isn't the right fit. AI may not have had a dominant 2nd scorer, but he never needed one with his own scoring. AI needed playmaking and defense around him, and he got that in 2001 when they went to the Finals. You can't discount titles, especially 3 of them. Shaq was definately the leader, but when fatty had to be taken out late in games due to terrible FT shooting, Kobe was the one taking over, hitting GW's in the Finals, taking over with Shaq fouled out in Finals, etc... Kobe was the one doing the playmaking, he was guarding the other team's best player, was taking over in the clutch, was rebounding, and by 2001 was averaging 28PPG. It may have been Shaq's team, but Kobe had just as big of a hand in it as Shaq did.Kobe has countless all-defensive team selections, countless all-NBA 1st team selections, has 2 straight scoring titles, has dropped 3 more 60pt games than AI (all 4 of which have came ina 2 year span), 2 all star game MVP's, youngest to reach many different marks, in top 35 or so in all time points, etc... The guy is just as accomplished as AI individually, and the reason he doesn't have many more is because he was too busy blending into a team to win 3 championships (which is what ulatimately means the most). From top to bottom, Kobe is the better player, and because of 3 rings is more accomplished.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 1 2007, 02:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So, you're just going to throw away 3 titles from Kobe's legacy? Hmm.... And he has only been on his own with him as sole leader for 3 years, 1 of them he was injured, the next he brought a team FAR better than the Sizers ever had to face in the East to 7 games (along with averaging 35PPG), and this year was once again brilliant with 32/6/5. He was robbed of MVP last year, has carried a lackluster team with many injuries to 2 straight playoff appearences in the TOUGH West, all star MVP, 2 all-defensive first teams.....don't tell me he hasn't done anything without Shaq.AI took a team with a perfect cast around him and COY to the Finals. He didn't do it by himself because, as you have seen the past few years, AI's scoring alone maybe gets you to the 1st round. He had a DPOY in Mutombo among other great role players (and an awesome coach who was perfect for their personel).AI is a 3-4RPG rebounder, Kobe is 5-7RPG. Kobe is the better reounder.Kobe was THE playmaker for the 3-peat Lakers. He was always at 5-7APG, right where AI has always been. But, with Shaq on the team demanding the ball, Kobe never had the ball in his hands as much as AI did.What good are steals when it, many times, costs you as a defender? AI's steals haven't gotten him onto half as many all-defensive team selections.AI had 11 years to take his team out of the first round...Kobe has had 3, and in a M-U-C-H tougher conference in which the top 3 teams are just dominant. And it has been quite awhile since AI has sniffed the 2nd round.Odom is not a good fit for the Lakers. He is not agressive, the coaches don't trust him as a playmaker, and he just isn't the right fit. AI may not have had a dominant 2nd scorer, but he never needed one with his own scoring. AI needed playmaking and defense around him, and he got that in 2001 when they went to the Finals.You can't discount titles, especially 3 of them. Shaq was definately the leader, but when fatty had to be taken out late in games due to terrible FT shooting, Kobe was the one taking over, hitting GW's in the Finals, taking over with Shaq fouled out in Finals, etc... Kobe was the one doing the playmaking, he was guarding the other team's best player, was taking over in the clutch, was rebounding, and by 2001 was averaging 28PPG. It may have been Shaq's team, but Kobe had just as big of a hand in it as Shaq did.Kobe has countless all-defensive team selections, countless all-NBA 1st team selections, has 2 straight scoring titles, has dropped 3 more 60pt games than AI (all 4 of which have came ina 2 year span), 2 all star game MVP's, youngest to reach many different marks, in top 35 or so in all time points, etc... The guy is just as accomplished as AI individually, and the reason he doesn't have many more is because he was too busy blending into a team to win 3 championships (which is what ulatimately means the most). From top to bottom, Kobe is the better player, and because of 3 rings is more accomplished.</div> :worthy:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 1 2007, 05:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>So, you're just going to throw away 3 titles from Kobe's legacy? Hmm.... And he has only been on his own with him as sole leader for 3 years, 1 of them he was injured, the next he brought a team FAR better than the Sizers ever had to face in the East to 7 games (along with averaging 35PPG), and this year was once again brilliant with 32/6/5. He was robbed of MVP last year, has carried a lackluster team with many injuries to 2 straight playoff appearences in the TOUGH West, all star MVP, 2 all-defensive first teams.....don't tell me he hasn't done anything without Shaq.AI took a team with a perfect cast around him and COY to the Finals. He didn't do it by himself because, as you have seen the past few years, AI's scoring alone maybe gets you to the 1st round. He had a DPOY in Mutombo among other great role players (and an awesome coach who was perfect for their personel).AI is a 3-4RPG rebounder, Kobe is 5-7RPG. Kobe is the better reounder.Kobe was THE playmaker for the 3-peat Lakers. He was always at 5-7APG, right where AI has always been. But, with Shaq on the team demanding the ball, Kobe never had the ball in his hands as much as AI did.What good are steals when it, many times, costs you as a defender? AI's steals haven't gotten him onto half as many all-defensive team selections.AI had 11 years to take his team out of the first round...Kobe has had 3, and in a M-U-C-H tougher conference in which the top 3 teams are just dominant. And it has been quite awhile since AI has sniffed the 2nd round.Odom is not a good fit for the Lakers. He is not agressive, the coaches don't trust him as a playmaker, and he just isn't the right fit. AI may not have had a dominant 2nd scorer, but he never needed one with his own scoring. AI needed playmaking and defense around him, and he got that in 2001 when they went to the Finals.You can't discount titles, especially 3 of them. Shaq was definately the leader, but when fatty had to be taken out late in games due to terrible FT shooting, Kobe was the one taking over, hitting GW's in the Finals, taking over with Shaq fouled out in Finals, etc... Kobe was the one doing the playmaking, he was guarding the other team's best player, was taking over in the clutch, was rebounding, and by 2001 was averaging 28PPG. It may have been Shaq's team, but Kobe had just as big of a hand in it as Shaq did.Kobe has countless all-defensive team selections, countless all-NBA 1st team selections, has 2 straight scoring titles, has dropped 3 more 60pt games than AI (all 4 of which have came ina 2 year span), 2 all star game MVP's, youngest to reach many different marks, in top 35 or so in all time points, etc... The guy is just as accomplished as AI individually, and the reason he doesn't have many more is because he was too busy blending into a team to win 3 championships (which is what ulatimately means the most). From top to bottom, Kobe is the better player, and because of 3 rings is more accomplished.</div>Last year I agree he should have either won it or finsihed 2nd behind Lebron 30/7/7 for Lebron I thought should have just edged Kobe. I could not believe Nash won that crap. AI also all star MVP so? And this year he should not have been on the first team league D. The coach does not play, but Yeah AI had a great coach in Larry. Phil Jackson is a great coach so what is the diff? Not sure why you bring coaches into it when you guys also have a great coach not like your coach is not good. Deke was great on D, but he had nothing else on offense like AT ALL on offense it was like all bench guys were playing. lolAnd LMAO of course Kobe is better, but think about the high diff I think Kobe should have been a consistent 7 maybe 8 boards a game look at the size diff. I mean for god sake a old 6'4 PG Jason kidd averaged more boards this season then Kobe I think. LOL Maybe I amw rong, but I just think with him being much taller then AI there should be a bigger gap with the rebounds don't you?And AI/Melo seem to be fine AI still had a few 30 point games even with Melo another star. And next year once they get more chemistry together I think it be more consistent both scoring big in the same game. Kobe still got plenty of shot's come one man.And sure Iverson is not a good D guy like Kobe, but also Kobe this year for sure should not have been first team on D team. But playing the passing lanes is also D. And Kobe has not had as many trys, and the West is tough I know, but still get 4-5 seat don't have to play the top 3 teams and you can get out of the first round.And Odom just not agressive enough when he is he is a very good #2 guy on a team. Just tell him make sure he starts being more agressive that's all. You still can't do it all your self unless your like 300 pounds like Shaq, and can just run over guy even when double/tripled teamed. LOL And they never put the D guys around him, and role players either except the year of the finals.Kobe guarded the best from other teams, because the best from other teams are not centers. LOLSome of the D teams were overrated I know this years first D team was AWFUL I can say that much. But I know Kobe plays good D unlike AI well now in Denver he is trying atleast. Only think is out side 3 titles is Kobe got a 81 point game, and a few 60 point game AI has only 1, but still I just think AI if you do take out the 3 titles has done more. After next year I might put together what each has done EVRYTHING they each have done both of them.W/E there is no changing people's mind usuaully you think what you think. But for now when you break it down with out titles I actually did about 2 years ago and even with what Kobe has done the last 2 years still don't think he has done as much by him self YET.
[quote name='Serge' post='347601' date='May 2 2007, 03:26 AM']Last year I agree he should have either won it or finsihed 2nd behind Lebron 30/7/7 for Lebron I thought should have just edged Kobe. I could not believe Nash won that crap. AI also all star MVP so? And this year he should not have been on the first team league D. The coach does not play, but Yeah AI had a great coach in Larry. Phil Jackson is a great coach so what is the diff? Not sure why you bring coaches into it when you guys also have a great coach not like your coach is not good. Deke was great on D, but he had nothing else on offense like AT ALL on offense it was like all bench guys were playing. lol[/quote]I brought up brown and Deke because you said AI brought his team to the Finals alone. Even though none of those players were huge threats offensively, they were great defensively, and historically that is what AI needs to win, not a great offensive team. AI had many offensive threats last year (even though Webber is old, still very effective) and couldn't get the team to the playoffs. I believe same could be said for 04-05. JKidd outrebounds many PF's and C's, and every single guard in the NBA, so using him as an example is stupid. It doesn't matter what Kobe could potentially average, bottom line is he averages 2-3 more RPG more. Kobe scored only 2PPG less, but also took 3 less shots per game (and shot a much better %) in the same year AI won the MVP. With Shaq out/injured in 02-03, and Kobe depended on to score, he had those 9 straight 40pt games, and averaged 30/7/6 for the season, and shot a better % than AI ever has. Man to man lockdown defense is far more important than getting 2SPG. For every steal AI gets, he has to cheat on D, which leads to open shots. He also sometimes misses the steal, which also leads to an open shot. Had it not been for Odom, VRad, Kwame and the others getting injured, they would have been a 4 or 5 seed. They were in the 5th seed before Odom went down, and the others followed. Lakers never fully recovered. They have told him countless times to be more agressive, but he simply hasn't. he is extremely inconsistent, and that really hurts the Lakers. Shaq has never done crap on his own. He had Penny in orlando, Kobe in LA, wade in Miami, and this year when wade was hurt they got their assses swept in the 1st round. AI never had to guard the best perimeter player on other teams, Wade doesn't, T-Mac doesn't, Pierce doesn't, etc... Kobe is a rare breed of superstar swingmen which do all that stuff on offense, then guard the best player on the opposing team (and many times lock him down). Again, 2 all defensive first team (AI hasn't been on one), an all star game MVP, 2 out of the 3 seasons with scoring title, 2 straight teams carried to playoffs (while AI missed playoffs 2 years in a row, and headed to a 3rd year before he was traded), only player other than Wilt to have 4 straight 50pt games, 4 60pt+ games, 4 straight 45pt games, etc... Again, you can't discount 3 titles because Shaq was the leader. Kobe had as much of a part in the last 2 that Shaq did, and was putting up numbers as impressive as AI's. He was making all defensive teams, hitting huge clutch shots, etc.. 8 of his years were with Shaq, so you can't just discount all he did in those years and make his career a 3 year one. AI's 11 years as sole leader to Kobe's 3 is a big disadvantage, and despite this Kobe's resume, even without the championships, is just as impressive.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>They have told him countless times to be more agressive, but he simply hasn't. he is extremely inconsistent, and that really hurts the Lakers.</div>His problem is finding the right role along side Kobe. LO is very good at getting those 15,17,9 statlines, but his role changes literally from game to game. Some nights they need 18 rebounds from him, the other he needs to score 25, the next he'll have to get 11 assists, and other nights, he has to do everything and get a triple double. He's a very very talented player and valuable as hell to the Lakers. I think this year was his break out year, unfortunately, he suffered two bad injuries and the Lakers never recovered. He really has to react differently to every game, where the other players on the team, usually have to do the same things each night.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 2 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I brought up brown and Deke because you said AI brought his team to the Finals alone. Even though none of those players were huge threats offensively, they were great defensively, and historically that is what AI needs to win, not a great offensive team. AI had many offensive threats last year (even though Webber is old, still very effective) and couldn't get the team to the playoffs. I believe same could be said for 04-05. JKidd outrebounds many PF's and C's, and every single guard in the NBA, so using him as an example is stupid. It doesn't matter what Kobe could potentially average, bottom line is he averages 2-3 more RPG more.Kobe scored only 2PPG less, but also took 3 less shots per game (and shot a much better %) in the same year AI won the MVP. With Shaq out/injured in 02-03, and Kobe depended on to score, he had those 9 straight 40pt games, and averaged 30/7/6 for the season, and shot a better % than AI ever has.Man to man lockdown defense is far more important than getting 2SPG. For every steal AI gets, he has to cheat on D, which leads to open shots. He also sometimes misses the steal, which also leads to an open shot. Had it not been for Odom, VRad, Kwame and the others getting injured, they would have been a 4 or 5 seed. They were in the 5th seed before Odom went down, and the others followed. Lakers never fully recovered.They have told him countless times to be more agressive, but he simply hasn't. he is extremely inconsistent, and that really hurts the Lakers. Shaq has never done crap on his own. He had Penny in orlando, Kobe in LA, wade in Miami, and this year when wade was hurt they got their assses swept in the 1st round.AI never had to guard the best perimeter player on other teams, Wade doesn't, T-Mac doesn't, Pierce doesn't, etc... Kobe is a rare breed of superstar swingmen which do all that stuff on offense, then guard the best player on the opposing team (and many times lock him down).Again, 2 all defensive first team (AI hasn't been on one), an all star game MVP, 2 out of the 3 seasons with scoring title, 2 straight teams carried to playoffs (while AI missed playoffs 2 years in a row, and headed to a 3rd year before he was traded), only player other than Wilt to have 4 straight 50pt games, 4 60pt+ games, 4 straight 45pt games, etc... Again, you can't discount 3 titles because Shaq was the leader. Kobe had as much of a part in the last 2 that Shaq did, and was putting up numbers as impressive as AI's. He was making all defensive teams, hitting huge clutch shots, etc.. 8 of his years were with Shaq, so you can't just discount all he did in those years and make his career a 3 year one. AI's 11 years as sole leader to Kobe's 3 is a big disadvantage, and despite this Kobe's resume, even without the championships, is just as impressive.</div>Dude they brought D true, but AI had to do everything him self. Again look at the size he should have a more of a advantage on the boards. AI get's like 5 guys on him cause he never had a 2nd option on offense a true 2nd option that is why he shot a bad %. Since he came to Denver before the playoffs started since being in Denver he has shot 45% and as a Sixer he was at like 43% this season. So now that he got help he shot 45% and I expect that to keep up now since he has help.Don't matter he is one of the best at steals to play the game.LMAO dude they would not have stayed a 4-5 seed anyway they are not good cause all they have is Kobe. Odom should be doing more. And Bynum I think is a huge talent, but he is young he has not breaken out yet he will soon though.When Wade was injury list Shaq did pretty well I think.Kobe is better on D then AI way better I never said other wise. Also this years first team D was bs for sure I might add.AI made playoffs like 6 out of 10 years in Philly I think doing it all him self never had a true 2nd option on offense. And never had great D guys except the year they went to the finals.AI has a playoffs game record in steals with like 9-10 steals in one game. AI as a rookie had a streak of 40 point games not sure if that record still there or has been broken, but anyway AI with out the 3 titles has done way more. And people are taking away from Shaq see were he be with out Shaq those years, and see were Shaq be with out Kobe all those years. I think Shaq make it farther with out Kobe those years then Kobe would with out Shaq.I don't care I got all the proov I need. I know Kobe is clearly the best now, and will be top 10-15 by the end of his career, but he is not YET. And BY HIM SELF HE HAS NOT DONE MORE THEN IVERSON. (For now not saying he won't down the road)And I am not bashing Kobe he is my 2nd fav player it's not like I am trying to bash the guy. I just am telling you from what I have check when you take away the 3 rings he got with Shaq AI FOR NOW has done more that is all. (I am sure down the road that will change)
[quote name='Serge' post='348302' date='May 3 2007, 03:27 AM']Dude they brought D true, but AI had to do everything him self. Again look at the size he should have a more of a advantage on the boards. AI get's like 5 guys on him cause he never had a 2nd option on offense a true 2nd option that is why he shot a bad %. Since he came to Denver before the playoffs started since being in Denver he has shot 45% and as a Sixer he was at like 43% this season. So now that he got help he shot 45% and I expect that to keep up now since he has help.[/quote]What are you not getting??? When AI has a lot of offense around him he is not as effective or valuable as when he has a bunch of defensive players around him. AI's offense can somewhat carry a team on the offensive end as long as you have decent role players by him (which they did). But to build a winning team around AI specifically, you need a bunch of great defensive players. He had that in Philly in '01, and that was the biggest reason in their Finals run. My point being is AI didn't do it alone, as the defense and great coaching was a HUGE part of it. It does matter when more than half of his steal attempts equate to 2pts for the opposing team. He is not a very good defender, while Kobe can raise his level to lockdown defender. Late in games, if you see a player playing the passing lanes, you will see the coach jump up and yell like hell at that player. Lockdown defense is far more important, and you yourself said Kobe is the much better defender. They were in that 5th seed more than halfway through the season. Had it not been for those killer injuries, they would have likely stayed there (or at very least been at a comfortable 6th seed). He averaged 20/10 without wade during season, but couldn't carry them to sh*t in the playoffs. Everytime he has made a mark in the playoffs, it was with a superstar by his side. Ok, forget this year's first team....he still has far more all-defensive teams than AI. In his career with Philly, they were barely over .500. He did a great job with that team, but he also had enough talent IMO to do more (especially the past few years). CWebb was still very effective last year, they had Iggy, Korver, etc... In the weak, weak east, they should have at leats made the playoffs. Playing the what if game is pointless, as Kobe was with Shaq for 8 years. Show me AI's individual accomplishments in his 11 year career, and I will show you Kobe's minus the 3 titles. Almost everything AI has done, minus the MVP award, has been trumped by Kobe. Whether it be individual seasons, overall career, etc... And you can't just look away from Kobe's 3 titles, as most of the top 10-15 players all time are defined by championships, NOT just individual accomplishments.
