Actually, he is worse than those guys defensively. At his best, in BOS in a great system surrounded by All Defensive 1st and 2nd teamers, he was as bad defensively as Harris and Mudiay were in a shitty defense in DEN. Post injury, without the benefit of one of the top defensive coaches and systems in the league, he's worse than they are. Of course, its a case of "What have you done for us lately". The most recent data is the most relevant. Until he proves he's recovered from his injury and is anywhere close too the same player he was pre-injury, in Boston's system, he's not. There are 30 GMs in the NBA and not one of them thought he was worth more than a 1-year minimum salary contract. Those GMs have seen him play pre and post injury. Pre-injury there was talk of him as an MVP candidate and a max contract player. If one of those 30 GMs thought there was a chance he could come anywhere close to his pre-injury level of play, he would have gotten a lot more than a $2 million for 1 year. So, their young players can only get better and ours can't? There is no guarantee that Jokic will ever be any better on defense. He's not going to suddenly gain lateral quickness. He's not going to suddenly become a high flying rim protector. If he had the potential to be either of those things, we would have at least seen flashes of it by now. We have two rim protectors in Nurk and Collins. Nurk is the same age as Jokic and Collins 3 years younger. So, best case scenario for them (a 1-dimensional chucker, and unproven, injury prone rookie and one proven player who only excels on one side of the court) vs. worst case scenario for us (one 1st team All NBA player, a second proven 20+ ppg player, and none of Nurk, Collins, Simons or Trent Jr. have the potential to become better than Murray or Porter). I know you're trying to refute @KingSpeed's silly super team narrative, but you've gone WAY overboard in the opposite direction. BNM
His offensive ability will outweigh the slight difference in defensive liability. It's not that 30 GMs didn't think he was worth more than a minimum contract, its that the market was crappy this year with only a few teams having money to spend, and PG is the most stacked position in the league. It's funny how, when chasing the narrative of Portland staying ahead of other Western teams, we get stuff like Isaiah Thomas not being an upgrade over Devin Harris. When I'm referencing their young talent and potential, I'm mostly thinking of Murray, MPJ, and Lyles. Those three have more unfulfilled potential than any of our players outside of Collins and Simons, and they're all more likely to be legit NBA players than Simons. Plus, our stars are in their prime. Their stars (Jokic + Murray) aren't there yet. What the hell are you talking about with next case/worst case? They're on even ground with us already (4 wins with worse injury luck). They only need very slight improvement to overtake us. Even if they don't overtake us for a couple years, they still could have a brighter future (which is what this argument is based on), simply due to the fact that their current core will still be playing at a very high level once LeBron retires and the Warriors dissipate.
Jamal Murray is not a star. Porter and Simons are both lottery level talent with question marks. The questions concerning Simons going into the draft were lack of experience against good competition and the fact that he's skinny. Both of those are easily overcome (Porter has exactly 53 more minutes of college experience than Porter). I know it was summer league, but in his first competition against lottery picks and older players he wasn't overwhelmed either physically or mentally. He held his own. The reason Porter slipped was his injury history. To me, that's a much bigger red flag, especially the nature of his injuries. He has had multiple back and hip injuries. He was walking with a visible limp at his introductory press conference, sat out the summer league and DEN has said they may have him sit out the entire 2018-19 season. Injuries may prevent him from ever living up to his potential. He wouldn't be the first. Trey Lyles is a decent big off the bench. He can shoot the 3, but he's yet another negative defender. He's going into his fourth season on his second team and has yet to break out. He has shown incremental improvement on offense (his shooting has become more consistent) . He could eventually become a solid, average starter, but I don't see any star potential there. Zach Collins has way more unfulfilled potential. Lyles is 2 years older and while he will likely get incrementally better, I have seen nothing to indicate he's a future star. Collins is all about potential. His rookie year he was physically over matched, but still showed flashes, especially on the defensive end. He has the potential to be above average on both ends of the court. Lyles could be a decent stretch 4 on offense, while getting abused on the other end of the floor. Lyles has nearly 4000 minutes of NBA experience under his belt, but has yet to show that he'll ever be anything more that a solid, average starter. A potential good player? Sure. A star? Highly unlikely. You, yourself said the best case for the Nuggets was "Plus, in the best-case scenario, they'll have 3 stars in Murray, MPJ, and Jokic". Yet, you completely dismissed our young players. Nurk still has more potential to become a star than anyone one on the Nuggets outside of Jokic (same age). Collins has more untapped potential than Lyles, or any other young DEN big man. I put Simons and Porter at the same level of potential, for different reasons (see above). I'm not sure Trent Jr. has any kind of star potential, but I see a solid role player in the near future and a solid starter eventually. Yes, our two best players are 28 and almost 27. Both still have several years left before they decline significantly. Damian Lillard has improved every single year he's been in the league. Last year was the first time C.J. did not improve, but that was following two years of astronomical improvement. Neither of these guys are anywhere close to declining. And when they do start to decline, Nurk, Collins, Simons and Trent Jr. will all be entering their primes. We will have a great mix of proven, quality veterans and players in their primes. Who will DEN's veteran leaders be when their young players are entering their prime? No one on their current roster. Millsap and IT will be long gone (it's not like IT is a leader anyway). They may be able to pick up a savvy vet or two, but they won't be getting anyone close to Damian Lillard. DEN isn't GSW, or even HOU. They are no more an attractive free agent destination than Portland. P.S. I specifically left Wade Baldwin out of the discussion, mostly because he's stuck behind Lillard and McCollum in the rotation, but he's another young Portland player who has the potential to be better than average on both sides of the ball. BNM
Jamal Murray is at least as good at the age of 20 as Lillard was hos rookie year. Same scoring clip yet Murrays more efficient. Dame distributed a little more. To say he doesn't have all-star potential is ridiculous. Sure, Collins may be better than Lyles. However, Lyles currently is a more productive player. You underrated MPJ. He's a 6'10 SG, essentially, and the perfect PF for the modern NBA. To suggest Simons is equal as a prospect, even with MPJs back problems, is biased. Simons will be fine, MPJ is more boom/bust. If we're gonna talk about Baldwin, we need to talk about Juan Hernangomez, Malik Beasley, etc. You say too much to even break down your argument, and you abstractly address the points I make. It's simple: Two teams that are essentially even (taking out a difference in injuries) with one team having a core of 27, 28, amd 23 year olds with other young projects with another having a core of 21 (Murray) and two 23 (Harris and Jokic) year olds, with the prospect with the most top end potential MPJ, as well as other young projects. They have the brighter future.
Who of these people will he beat out for the All Star game? Damian Lillard Steph Curry James Harden Russell Westbrook Donovan Mitchell Not to mention Chris Paul, Klay Thompson, Jimmy Butler, Mike Conley, and even Jrue Holiday? (Look out for Lonzo Ball too because he's in LA and LeBron made Mo Williams into an All Star in Cleveland) Jamal Murray will never be an All Star unless Denver gets a top 2 seed and that won't happen.
Dude, screw all-star selections. As a Dame fan, you should have that mindset as well.... I told you a couple of days ago, I talk in terms of "all-star level of play" not "all-star selections". I'm talking about his all-star level of play potential down the road, not him making the goddamn game next year.
You basically admitted that all the people I listed are ahead of Jamal Murray. That means Murray is not up to the level of those guys and thus, he's not an All Star or even at All Star "level."
You do realize there's an imbalance between leagues, right? Someone in the West who plays at a higher level than someone East still might not make the all-star team while the person in the East does. I'm also talking about POTENTIAL. I shouldnt have to explain thisbto you.
Bad teams? You mean like teams that have missed the playoffs five years in a row? Those kind of bad teams? BNM
And us. Even CJ can't admit they played bad. I've heard so many excuses for us... of were really that good, we need to prove it.
Now that the NBA isn't doing east and west anymore in the allstar team, they should change the way players are selected
