Doing a quick check of the usual suspects (kobe, wade, dirk, nash, etc) it appears Lebron was second in the league in FGA in the clutch this year, so I don't know how he's "passive" in the clutch. He shoots 69.8% from the line in the regular season. I don't think that a 2.6% drop in free throws in a small sample size is statistically significant at all. Lebron's 21.1% on game winners is almost identical to Kobe's 21.9% Anecdotal evidence is not going to convince me that the guy who is scoring more and assisting more while shooting 10% better from the field in the clutch is the worse clutch player (in the case of Kobe). Dirk has had monumental collapses his last two playoff series' that were mainly his faults. Carmelo and Wade I'll give you, but they may be the two best clutch players in the league. I don't think it's a shame to be behind those guys, nor a requisite. Well perhaps it's because he makes the smart play in the clutch. I see him getting more clutch assists than nearly anybody, whereas Kobe's missed 111 shots in the clutch this season (the most in the league, more than Wade even attempted), 25 games winning shots from 2004-2006, etc. Meanwhile, Lebron shoots a nice percentage in the clutch and gets lots of game winning assists (third best in the league in game winning assists from 04-06). I get sick and tired of people thinking that whoever takes the most shots in the clutch is the most clutch player. If you're shooting under 40% from the field and 21% on game winners maybe you shouldn't be taking every single shot in the clutch. If you're second in the league in scoring and shoot a high percentage you're considered a good scorer. If you're third in the league in passing you're considered a good passer. I don't see why somebody who's second in the league in clutch scoring and third in clutch passing and does it on a reasonably high percentage isn't considered at least a good clutch player.
[quote name='Kobebryant_24OWNEDME' post='358557' date='May 18 2007, 12:51 AM']Doing a quick check of the usual suspects (kobe, wade, dirk, nash, etc) it appears Lebron was second in the league in FGA in the clutch this year, so I don't know how he's "passive" in the clutch.[/quote]You used playoffs, so I did as well. LeBron is passive in the clutch, especially against other superstars. He has dissapeared vs those other players I mentioned, dissapeared in 4th vs Pistons last year, has dissapeared this series vs the Nets, etc... For career, it is actually a 8% dropoff. It also doesn't tell for last few plays of the game, even when it isn't going for the tie or lead. http://youtube.com/watch?v=J2yzNQWFYko&...ted&search=http://youtube.com/watch?v=cojRLhW5FOchttp://youtube.com/watch?v=bFDGsiWlTj0http://youtube.com/watch?v=sEnd0AgbOMU&...ted&search=Outside of the dozens of shots Kobe has hit to tie and win games over his career, he has the killer instinct to take over and hit the game winner, which LeBron doesn't. People will use LeBron's age, but Kobe was carrying a Shaq-less Lakers team in OT of his first Finals series to win the game at a younger age. Kobe has totally taken over the end of games so many times that I can't even keep count anymore. The most recent time, vs Houston in March or April, is the kind of mentality and ability LeBron has never shown (as seen in one of the above videos). Try 5% less, and Kobe scores more in clutch, has a better passer and ballhandler rating in clutch....and it all means nothing as the stats prove very little in this case.Dirk carried a team to the championships, including the biggest plays of the SA and Phoenix series in which he took over. He is better during regular season in clutch, and won't clank as many free throws in the clutch. LeBron has been consistently outplayed by other stars in the clutch, and has proven far less in clutch in postseason than Dirk.Carmelo is way overrated in the clutch. Outside of last year where he hit a ton of game winning shots, he isn't a clutch player. He doesn't take over games like Kobe or Wade, and up until this season has been dreadful in the playoffs. Kobe and Wade are by far and away the best clutch players in the league. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Aw98f5W80WAhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=YG0t8V5bZDEhttp://youtube.com/watch?v=hsCanLulkrcMissed FT's and game tying shots vs Mavs.Missed FT's to tie/win game vs Nuggets. Dissapearing and missing big FT's vs Pistons and Nets.Horrible, horrible decision making and dissapearing act vs Bobcats...and those are simply off the top of my head...LeBron has more assists in clutch, but also way more TO's. The problem with LeBron isn't necassarily the execution, it's how he blends in instead of taking over. This is fine when the team is playing great, but there are many times when his team needs him yet he is nowhere to be found. He doesn't have the same type of killer instinct that Kobe or Wade has. He won't take over a game and outscore whole teams in the fourth like those 2 will. Yes, that also means that at times they will have bad fourth quarters and force things, but same can be said for other great clutch players like MJ and Reggie Miller. That kind of killer instinct is what you look for when you want to build a championship caliber team. LeBron has showed very little signs of this kind of mentality. Look past the stats and watch the games, especially ones with high pressure or high-profile head to head matchups, and you will see it is blatantly obvious.Where the hell are you getting 25 game winning shots from?
All this 'clutch this'., 'clutch that', ugh god. I hate that f*cking word more than anything when it comes to basketball discussion. Sure LeBron isn't the greatest in late game situations, but come on, when you look at his late game shots, and the many times he makes the great pass instead of gunning the ball against the triple team...he's not that bad....it's like with some people...just because he isn't amazing like Wade or Bryant, he's not up to par, please.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 19 2007, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All this 'clutch this'., 'clutch that', ugh god. I hate that f*cking word more than anything when it comes to basketball discussion. Sure LeBron isn't the greatest in late game situations, but come on, when you look at his late game shots, and the many times he makes the great pass instead of gunning the ball against the triple team...he's not that bad....it's like with some people...just because he isn't amazing like Wade or Bryant, he's not up to par, please.</div>once again, couldnt have said it better. HES A PLAYMAKER PEOPLE!!!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 19 2007, 05:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All this 'clutch this'., 'clutch that', ugh god. I hate that f*cking word more than anything when it comes to basketball discussion. Sure LeBron isn't the greatest in late game situations, but come on, when you look at his late game shots, and the many times he makes the great pass instead of gunning the ball against the triple team...he's not that bad....it's like with some people...just because he isn't amazing like Wade or Bryant, he's not up to par, please.</div>It is very rare a guy will get a last second shot to win a game, and it'd be totally unfair to chastize a player's clutch ability just for that. But it's the last 5-10min in general and how he handles himself. It is how he clanks free throws in the waning moments. It is how, even though his teammates are crap, he still stays passive and doesn't try and take over a game. It's not necassarily his ability to get it done, but his mentality to rip the other team's heart out. Talent wise, the man is right there with Wade and Kobe. But yes, the mentality he has as being 'the man' on the Cavs, especially down the stretch in the 4th quarter, is not up to par with Kobe and Wade, and is a big reason why I put those 2 players ahead of LeBron.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>once again, couldnt have said it better. HES A PLAYMAKER PEOPLE!!!</div>Check the game back on 2/1 between Cleveland and Miami in which Wade was having one of his worst games of the season, then lights it up for 24 4th quarter points. They were down quite a bit, no one else was hitting shots, then in 4th Wade totally took over. On the other hand, Bron scored only 7pts, missed a critical FT, and then shot to tie the game....oh and 0 ast in final quarter.Playmaking is part of his game, but the most valuable asset he offers the Cavs is his scoring. In the 4th, with defenses clamping down, he needs to carry the scoring load. Sometimes, like yesterday, his teammates are hitting shots and it is fine to play that kind of way. But all too often they aren't hitting shots, and he stays passive and doesn't try and take over.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ May 19 2007, 06:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>It is very rare a guy will get a last second shot to win a game, and it'd be totally unfair to chastize a player's clutch ability just for that. But it's the last 5-10min in general and how he handles himself. It is how he clanks free throws in the waning moments. It is how, even though his teammates are crap, he still stays passive and doesn't try and take over a game. It's not necassarily his ability to get it done, but his mentality to rip the other team's heart out.</div> I'm not going to nitpick a 22-year old's ability in clutch. I'm just not going to do it. I've seen LeBron take over and win games in the 4th, I've seen him take it easy and give the ball up, bottom line for me, it's there, he's still a kid, get back to me in 4 years, when it's really a pressing issue.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 19 2007, 06:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not going to nitpick a 22-year old's ability in clutch. I'm just not going to do it. I've seen LeBron take over and win games in the 4th, I've seen him take it easy and give the ball up, bottom line for me, it's there, he's still a kid, get back to me in 4 years, when it's really a pressing issue.</div>First of all, we are talking about the here and now. And yes, the guys with similar talent but who have the better leadership qualities and clutch ability do get the edge from me. We are not talking about the future as it is absolutely pointless to guess and predict if he will develop into a kilelr in the 4th or he will be a little scared pussy. But right this second, his biggest weakness and reason why I can't put him with the likes of Wade and Bryant is the killer instinct.Kobe was carrying a Shaq-less team in OT of the Finals at 20 years old, I am sick of hearing the young excuse. Yes, he is young, and he is far from fully developed. I understand this. But he has had 4 years to improve this area of the game, yet he is right about where he was at the end of year 2. The way he talks to teammates has improved, but he hasn't been the lead by example in critical situations kind of player. For this, it is fair to criticize him. Whether he develops into this kind of player has yet to be seen, and I'm certainly not dismissing it, but it has yet to be.
Michael Redd 3 years ago was not good at all in the clutch, he passed up shots and made mistakes. Now he's much more confident and killer late in games. Give LeBron time. You over analyze everything to the point of nauseum.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 19 2007, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Michael Redd 3 years ago was not good at all in the clutch, he passed up shots and made mistakes. Now he's much more confident and killer late in games. Give LeBron time. You over analyze everything to the point of nauseum.</div>First of all, for the first 3 seasons or so of his career he wasn't anymore than a 2nd option. In a few seasons as 'the man' he developed into that kind of player. LeBron still makes the mistakes of a player who is a rookie. Secondly, Redd doesn't have near the talent of LeBron and is never routinely placed as the best, or 2nd best, player in the game.Once again, I am not saying LeBron won't develop into a killer in the 4th, but right here and now he simply isn't that kind of player and it is fair to criticize him for that. Is that simple enough and not over analytical for you?
I think LeBron has a killer instinct. But unlike most superstar guards, a certain percentage of him thinks/acts like a PG. I've watched Cavaliers games this season where sometimes LeBron plays PG in the closing minutes and other times where whoever is playing PG comes up with the ball....don't you think that kind of a role and his unique game can lead to some inconsistancy and late game identity issues?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ May 19 2007, 06:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think LeBron has a killer instinct. But unlike most superstar guards, a certain percentage of him thinks/acts like a PG. I've watched Cavaliers games this season where sometimes LeBron plays PG in the closing minutes and other times where whoever is playing PG comes up with the ball....don't you think that kind of a role and his unique game can lead to some inconsistancy and late game identity issues?</div>Wade and Kobe also are PG's for their teams in the final minutes. If your team is hitting their shots, then it is perfectly fine to play in that role and not take a ton of shots. But if they are struggling, you have to make yourself the scorer (whcih, as I said before, is LeBron's greatest ability) and rip the other team's heart out. Wade and Kobe know when to turn it on as their teammates aren't playing well, but LeBron tends to stay passive. His decision making in the final minutes is suspect as well, with his high number of TO's, fadeaway jumpers that really aren't in his range, etc... Then you mix in the missed FT's and getting outplayed in head to head matchups, and it becomes a problem.You're right, he does have late game identity issues, and they haven't been resolved yet. Therefor, it is fair to criticize and is a big reason why I, and many others, don't rank him as a top 2-3 player in the league (IMO Kobe, Wade and Duncan are the 3 best players in the game).
I think someone's jealous that their favourite superstar can't even get out of the first round while lebron is now in the ecf.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Melo061 @ May 19 2007, 07:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I think someone's jealous that their favourite superstar can't even get our of the first round while lebron is now in the ecf.</div> Haha, LeBron has had a cakewalk so far in these playoffs.
