<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>He plays defense and has the ability to block and alter shots like anyone else that has ever played, he is as good of a passer as anyone that has played in the low post, Duncan he can score in the low post. He has as much basketball talent, as anyone else that can play in the post. He isn't going to be able to do the behind the back passing that Magic did, or the type of scoring that Jordan did out on the wings, but those are all relative to your position in basketball. For his position he as talented as any of those players you just mentioned, and does the basketball things that his position needed. Considering his team made the finals and won a title the year after Jordan left, with Duncan being a rookie I do think he could have made the finals in another era and played as well in another era. That season Duncan did face alot of the same players and teams that Jordan had to face throughout his years of going to the finals, and did a very good job as just a rookie.</div>By 1999 Most of the NBA's former superstars were washed up. Look at the Rockets the season after MJ retired Barkley,Pippen,AND Hakeem and they still didnt win a title. Most of the big names had dropped off significantly especially Ewing(had Ewing been in his 95' shape, The Spurs wouldnt have even won that title.) By 1999 most of the young stars of the 80s and superstars of the 90s were over the hill. The only real competition left was Seattle and Shawn Kemp had other priorities then winning a championship.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Considering Shaq went toe to toe with patrick ewing,Karl malone,charles barkley,Hakeem Olajuwon,David Robinson,Dennis Rodman,Charles Oakley,Vlade Divac,etc. and still managed several all-team selections I give him the defensive edge. Duncan may be a smarter defender then Shaq, but Shaq in his prime could out-muscle even the best big men to ever play the game. While Duncans only real competition hes faced toe to toe has been Kevin Garnett or Jermaine O'neal. Hardly in the same ranks. I agree Duncan is top 20 alltime easily though.and yes Lebron right now is a much better player then Duncan is right now. Lebron still has much more to improve on, and is not half the defender duncan is but in the finals(even with his poor performance) he outplayed Duncan in every way other then defensively which I just pointed out. If it werent for the fact that the cavaliers have one of the worst pg situations in the NBA they might still be playing the Spurs.</div>Just because he played in that era doesn't mean he is the better defender. Outside of his first year in LA he has been somewhat of a lazy defender, extremely foul prone and a liability on pick and rolls. If anything, Duncan is a much more reliable defender.Just because Bron made it to the Finals and stat stuffs doesn't make him better than Duncan. You can't expect big men to be 30PPG scorers all the time or to dish out 8APG, but realize that Duncan always has the ball in his hands far less than Bron. Duncan is one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game, and while TP was lighting it up with scoring, Duncan led the team in assists. Duncan commands a ton of attention on both ends, and as previous seasons have shown he CAN take over scoring load for team and have a 25-26PPG season. Duncan is also a proven leader and has been willing to take over in clutch and take big shots, while Bron has been shaky at best in clutch. And while I'm trying not to diminish what Bron has done with a mediocre team, he also had mediocre opponents and this IS only his first appearence in the Finals, while Duncan has 4 rings to boast. So give me Duncan over Bron right this second.
I would say that Duncan has been the best player where as Shaq has been the most dominant. Shaq at his peak was better then Duncan but Duncan has been more consistent throughout his career with Shaq's durability issues (664 games played for Duncan, 575 games played for Shaq).Duncan4 championships3 finals MVPs2 regular season MVPs.712 regular season win%.662 postseason winning%Shaq4 championships3 finals MVPs1 regular season MVP.670 regular season win%.662 postseason win%
All of those players were still playing at a high level of play, and doing just the same as they did the season before whe Michael Jordan was there. That Rockets team had problems because Pippen and Barkley did not get along well, and there was problems with chemistry on the court. It was well chronicled throughout the season. The Knicks were still as good, as any time that the Bulls faced them throughout the playoffs, the Lakers were as good as any team that Jordan faced throughout his time, The Utah Jazz were still an elite team, Portland was a much better team by that time.What lets me know even more you don't really know what your talking about, Shawn Kemp was in Cleveland at that time, Seattle was not an elite team at all. They didn't even make the playoffs that year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Just because he played in that era doesn't mean he is the better defender. Outside of his first year in LA he has been somewhat of a lazy defender, extremely foul prone and a liability on pick and rolls. If anything, Duncan is a much more reliable defender.Just because Bron made it to the Finals and stat stuffs doesn't make him better than Duncan. You can't expect big men to be 30PPG scorers all the time or to dish out 8APG, but realize that Duncan always has the ball in his hands far less than Bron. Duncan is one of the best defenders and rebounders in the game, and while TP was lighting it up with scoring, Duncan led the team in assists. Duncan commands a ton of attention on both ends, and as previous seasons have shown he CAN take over scoring load for team and have a 25-26PPG season. Duncan is also a proven leader and has been willing to take over in clutch and take big shots, while Bron has been shaky at best in clutch. And while I'm trying not to diminish what Bron has done with a mediocre team, he also had mediocre opponents and this IS only his first appearence in the Finals, while Duncan has 4 rings to boast. So give me Duncan over Bron right this second.</div>Right Now comparing Duncan and Lebron, Lebron has much more an advantage. At this stage of duncans career there is no way he could lead that cavalier team to the finals. The fact that Lebron took his team to the finals stuns even myself and gave me alot of respect for him. Duncan in his prime was a better player then Lebron is right now but Duncan right now cannot score 30 points agaist a good defensive team much less could he score 30 straight points agaist the best defensive team in the eastern conference.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>All of those players were still playing at a high level of play, and doing just the same as they did the season before whe Michael Jordan was there. That Rockets team had problems because Pippen and Barkley did not get along well, and there was problems with chemistry on the court. It was well chronicled throughout the season. The Knicks were still as good, as any time that the Bulls faced them throughout the playoffs, the Lakers were as good as any team that Jordan faced throughout his time, The Utah Jazz were still an elite team, Portland was a much better team by that time.What lets me know even more you don't really know what your talking about, Shawn Kemp was in Cleveland at that time, Seattle was not an elite team at all. They didn't even make the playoffs that year.</div>The Knicks were not at all as good as the 95' team. other then Sprewell and Houston, the entire team had declined and Ewing was no where as dominant as he once was. The infamous shot he missed proved further he was nearing the end of his career and his post offense and defense had fallen off significantly. The Blazers in 1999 while on paper looked a much better team did not have the experience to take on Avery and Drob much less adding Duncan to the mix as was shown by the sweep and while they had improved, were not the same team they were in the early 90s. Also The Spurs never played the Jazz in 1999, instead they played a very weak timberwolves team.EDIT: Seattle was an elite team the previous season but as I said Kemp had other priorties(IE leaving Seattle and ending their run) maybe I didnt say it well enough but I implied the same thing you said.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right Now comparing Duncan and Lebron, Lebron has much more an advantage. At this stage of duncans career there is no way he could lead that cavalier team to the finals. The fact that Lebron took his team to the finals stuns even myself and gave me alot of respect for him. Duncan in his prime was a better player then Lebron is right now but Duncan right now cannot score 30 points agaist a good defensive team much less could he score 30 straight points agaist the best defensive team in the eastern conference.</div>The Cavs are built around Bron, so it is totally different circumstances. And I could come right back and say Bron couldn't even get Spurs past the Suns, even with suspensions. But what Bron does on the offensive end to help team, Duncan does that to a lesser degree AND makes the Spurs arguably the top defensive team in the league. Without his shot blocking presence and pick and roll defense, most great perimeter players would burn the Spurs as Bowen just can't keep in front of them as well as he used to anymore. But with Duncan backing him up, Bowen and the other role players can play defense very freely as they know the big man is backing them up. Duncan is also a great man to man defender as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 06:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Right Now comparing Duncan and Lebron, Lebron has much more an advantage. At this stage of duncans career there is no way he could lead that cavalier team to the finals. The fact that Lebron took his team to the finals stuns even myself and gave me alot of respect for him. Duncan in his prime was a better player then Lebron is right now but Duncan right now cannot score 30 points agaist a good defensive team much less could he score 30 straight points agaist the best defensive team in the eastern conference.</div>I disagree, Tim Duncan could lead the cavs through this year's eastern conference just based off of how bad it was. Detroit was the only playoff quality team the Cavs faced en route to the Finals. A crippled Wizards team missing their 2 best players and a Nets team where Jason Kidd is arguably their best post player would offer little to no resistance to Tim Duncan regardless of what stage he was in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Cavs are built around Bron, so it is totally different circumstances. And I could come right back and say Bron couldn't even get Spurs past the Suns, even with suspensions. But what Bron does on the offensive end to help team, Duncan does that to a lesser degree AND makes the Spurs arguably the top defensive team in the league. Without his shot blocking presence and pick and roll defense, most great perimeter players would burn the Spurs as Bowen just can't keep in front of them as well as he used to anymore. But with Duncan backing him up, Bowen and the other role players can play defense very freely as they know the big man is backing them up. Duncan is also a great man to man defender as well.</div>Which further proves my point, other then defensively Lebron is a better player NOW. It's true in the west Lebron wouldnt have gotten far but he did take his team from down 0-2 to beat the best team in their conference. Without Bowen the series would have been much more evenly matched but the spurs-cavs was just a bad matchup and the spurs are clearly a better team but as individual talent Lebron is on another level then Duncan. Duncan is not the player he used to be, thats quite obvious now with Parker and Manu taking over the offense and the spurs deep bench playing more into the scoring.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Jun 15 2007, 09:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I disagree, Tim Duncan could lead the cavs through this year's eastern conference just based off of how bad it was. Detroit was the only playoff quality team the Cavs faced en route to the Finals. A crippled Wizards team missing their 2 best players and a Nets team where Jason Kidd is arguably their best post player would offer little to no resistance to Tim Duncan regardless of what stage he was in his career.</div>You think Duncan could beat detroit with Eric Snow as his pg when it took him 7 games and within 2 minutes to beat the Pistons 2 years ago(when he was in much better shape)?
They played Utah throughout the season, and got the better record which is why they got the higher seed out of the two seeing as how they tied in season standings. As for the Knicks, maybe they wasn't as good as they was in 1995, but they were still an elite level team that was still a good team. Without a Ewing inury they would not have been an 8th seed. Ewing was still a double double guy on the team, and could easily put up 20 a nightPorland was still a good team, that was capable of making pushes. Los Angeles was a good team, they had to face all of those East teams throughout the season and did a great job. He faced talent, just as much talent as what Jordan had to face, and was able to get a championship win as the main man on the team.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 06:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You think Duncan could beat detroit with Eric Snow as his pg when it took him 7 games and within 2 minutes to beat the Pistons 2 years ago(when he was in much better shape)?</div>That Pistons team was a lot better then the one the cavs beat this year. If the Spurs played this year's Pistons in the finals it would have been over in 5, 6 max. They were horrible defensively down the stretch letting teams get into the paint almost at will and were simply out-coached.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Which further proves my point, other then defensively Lebron is a better player NOW. It's true in the west Lebron wouldnt have gotten far but he did take his team from down 0-2 to beat the best team in their conference. Without Bowen the series would have been much more evenly matched but the spurs-cavs was just a bad matchup and the spurs are clearly a better team but as individual talent Lebron is on another level then Duncan. Duncan is not the player he used to be, thats quite obvious now with Parker and Manu taking over the offense and the spurs deep bench playing more into the scoring.</div>First of all, offense is only 50% of the game. Duncan dominates the game defensively. If Duncan wasn't on the team, Bron would have abused Bowen as there would be no one to back him up when someone drives past him. Secondly, talent is only part of being a great player. Bron is extremely talented, but his smarts, decision making and overall polish still lack and are what keep him from being a top 3 player in the league IMO. Lastly, as I said in the Malone topic, Duncan CAN dominate offensively. He had a 26PPG season a few years ago when Parker/Ginobli were very young and Robinson was aged, he dropped 30PPG on the Mavs last year in the playoffs when his team needed him, and he has been great in the playoffs. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. He is an awesome rebounder.Big men and swingmen are totally different and hard to compare, but you can't just say, "Well, Bron is a 27/7/7 guy who dominates offensively and is ultra-talented...so he's better." It just doesn't work that way, at least IMO. Duncan does so much that doesn't show up in the stat sheet that makes his team consistently a contender and why he has won 3 rings without any real star sidekick (I will excuse his first ring as he had Robinson).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Diawsome @ Jun 15 2007, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>That Pistons team was a lot better then the one the cavs beat this year. If the Spurs played this year's Pistons in the finals it would have been over in 5, 6 max. They were horrible defensively down the stretch letting teams get into the paint almost at will and were simply out-coached.</div>The only difference was Ben Wallace and Cwebb offensively brought what detroit lacked agaist san antonio so it really canceled eachother out. If Duncan was on the cavs he might have scored 20 points but he wouldnt have taken over like lebron did. You do know since the pistons lost that series they have beaten the spurs nearly every game(if not all)? The pistons have a favorable matchup against the spurs. Duncan is a good player right now but a different player, more of a roleplayer with a decent post-presence then anything, and definitely not a guy like lebron.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 10:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, offense is only 50% of the game. Duncan dominates the game defensively. If Duncan wasn't on the team, Bron would have abused Bowen as there would be no one to back him up when someone drives past him. Secondly, talent is only part of being a great player. Bron is extremely talented, but his smarts, decision making and overall polish still lack and are what keep him from being a top 3 player in the league IMO. Lastly, as I said in the Malone topic, Duncan CAN dominate offensively. He had a 26PPG season a few years ago when Parker/Ginobli were very young and Robinson was aged, he dropped 30PPG on the Mavs last year in the playoffs when his team needed him, and he has been great in the playoffs. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. He is an awesome rebounder.Big men and swingmen are totally different and hard to compare, but you can't just say, "Well, Bron is a 27/7/7 guy who dominates offensively and is ultra-talented...so he's better." It just doesn't work that way, at least IMO. Duncan does so much that doesn't show up in the stat sheet that makes his team consistently a contender and why he has won 3 rings without any real star sidekick (I will excuse his first ring as he had Robinson).</div>What does Duncan have to do with Bowen? Bowens man defense shut down lebron, all Duncan had to do was slow down Z and Gooden(Which Gooden actually scored very well on Duncan, so I dont get where you say he had such amazing defense) Duncan used to be able to score 26, just because he once averaged 26 3-4 years ago doesn't mean he can do it anymore especially since his injury last season, he is declining as was shown by Parker taking over the load and Duncan stepping aside like the Spurs first championship just in reverse order. The Spurs are a great team, but Duncan is not the centerpiece anymore but more of just a good player. They might not have stars but the Spurs are a very deep team, bench-wise they have many people who can shoot the three, Brent Barry, Michael Finley,Beno Udrih,Robert Horry,Oberta,etc. They are a complete team that is why they win championships and duncan is a great player which helps also. They say he doesn't show up in the stat sheet but thats because he doesn't do everything he used to, and the TEAM as a whole has improved while duncan declines.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 10:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>What does Duncan have to do with Bowen? Bowens man defense shut down lebron, all Duncan had to do was slow down Z and Gooden(Which Gooden actually scored very well on Duncan, so I dont get where you say he had such amazing defense) Duncan used to be able to score 26, just because he once averaged 26 3-4 years ago doesn't mean he can do it anymore especially since his injury last season, he is declining as was shown by Parker taking over the load and Duncan stepping aside like the Spurs first championship just in reverse order. The Spurs are a great team, but Duncan is not the centerpiece anymore but more of just a good player. They might not have stars but the Spurs are a very deep team, bench-wise they have many people who can shoot the three, Brent Barry, Michael Finley,Beno Udrih,Robert Horry,Oberta,etc. They are a complete team that is why they win championships and duncan is a great player which helps also. They say he doesn't show up in the stat sheet but thats because he doesn't do everything he used to, and the TEAM as a whole has improved while duncan declines.</div>See, that is the biggest reason why many people call Duncan underrated. He DOES affect Bowen. Bowen is not as quick as he was, and he has been burned many times this season as he can't guard players as closely due to his loss in speed. But with Duncan backing him up he can afford to be beaten as one of the league's best interior defenders is backing him up. As you saw with Scottie Pippen late in his career, even as one of the greatest all time defenders, he'd get constantly beat off the dribble but no one was able to back him up like Duncan...thus Kobe abused him in their matchups. Bowen needs Duncan to be so effective defensively. Being a defensive anchor for a whole team is the main reason why players like Hakeem were so important and why Greg Oden is being so hyped. It isn't just what they do to their man.Duncan's stats have decreased because, as you said, he doesn't NEED to dominate consistently like he used to. When he was scoring 26PPG he didn't have much help in role players and was forced to dominate. Now he can somewhat coast unless called upon. But as he showed in these playoffs and last year's playoffs, he can still dominate when need be. Duncan's minutes have dropped, but his FG % has risen, and RPG/BPG/APG have taken only a slight dip (mostly due to playing only 34MPG compared to 38-40MPG). I do not think he has declined much at all, and I would take him over LeBron for ONE season to build my team around.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: Seattle was an elite team the previous season but as I said Kemp had other priorties(IE leaving Seattle and ending their run) maybe I didnt say it well enough but I implied the same thing you said.</div>I just noticed that you put this at the bottom, and below is that you said:<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The only real competition left was Seattle and Shawn Kemp had other priorities then winning a championship.</div>This is what you said at the time, you said that Seattle was the only real competition left, refering to the time when Duncan won his first title. Which is false, as they wasn't even competition, and didn't even make the playoffs that year. Then you tried to cover for it by that sorry excuse you put earlier, which you didn't imply at all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 15 2007, 08:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>By 1999 Most of the NBA's former superstars were washed up. Look at the Rockets the season after MJ retired Barkley,Pippen,AND Hakeem and they still didnt win a title. Most of the big names had dropped off significantly especially Ewing(had Ewing been in his 95' shape, The Spurs wouldnt have even won that title.) By 1999 most of the young stars of the 80s and superstars of the 90s were over the hill. The only real competition left was Seattle and Shawn Kemp had other priorities then winning a championship.</div>Instead of saying that Ewing had dropped off in talent (probably true, but irrelevant), perhaps a better argument would be that the Spurs wouldn't have won if the Knicks HAD Ewing.Patrick was out for the whole series with an achilles injury.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 15 2007, 09:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First of all, offense is only 50% of the game. Duncan dominates the game defensively. If Duncan wasn't on the team, Bron would have abused Bowen as there would be no one to back him up when someone drives past him. Secondly, talent is only part of being a great player. Bron is extremely talented, but his smarts, decision making and overall polish still lack and are what keep him from being a top 3 player in the league IMO. Lastly, as I said in the Malone topic, Duncan CAN dominate offensively. He had a 26PPG season a few years ago when Parker/Ginobli were very young and Robinson was aged, he dropped 30PPG on the Mavs last year in the playoffs when his team needed him, and he has been great in the playoffs. He is one of the best passing big men in the league. He is an awesome rebounder.Big men and swingmen are totally different and hard to compare, but you can't just say, "Well, Bron is a 27/7/7 guy who dominates offensively and is ultra-talented...so he's better." It just doesn't work that way, at least IMO. Duncan does so much that doesn't show up in the stat sheet that makes his team consistently a contender and why he has won 3 rings without any real star sidekick (I will excuse his first ring as he had Robinson).</div>I couldn't agree more. The fact that you play DEFENSE for half the game can't be overemphasized.LeBron comes out ahead on the stat sheet because he has the ball in his hands all the time, whereas Duncan shares the offensive load with other players. The Cavs lost the series because of their single minded offense. Well, they probably would have lost anyway, but the offensive choices helped it along.Tim Duncan is a player in the mold of David Robinson, whose selflessness in stepping back and letting his teammate take the spotlight was HUGE in getting the Spurs that first title. If TD insisted that he get the ball all the time, he could certainly put up 35 a night - to the detriment of his team's success.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (jordanisoverrated @ Jun 16 2007, 03:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I couldn't agree more. The fact that you play DEFENSE for half the game can't be overemphasized.LeBron comes out ahead on the stat sheet because he has the ball in his hands all the time, whereas Duncan shares the offensive load with other players. The Cavs lost the series because of their single minded offense. Well, they probably would have lost anyway, but the offensive choices helped it along.Tim Duncan is a player in the mold of David Robinson, whose selflessness in stepping back and letting his teammate take the spotlight was HUGE in getting the Spurs that first title. If TD insisted that he get the ball all the time, he could certainly put up 35 a night - to the detriment of his team's success.</div>People say TD can easily put up 30 a game, but he cant anymore. Sure agaist a weak defense he can exploit it to occasional score points but he has signicantly slowed down after that injury next season. You can see it in him that he isnt the same guy who averaged 26 ppg anymore, and thats why Parker and Ginobli have had to step up and they went after scorers on the bench like Brent Barry and Michael Finley.
