<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Pacers fan forever @ Jun 18 2007, 05:01 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>threads like these have no objective point, there is no one consistant agreement</div>Do you want everybody to agree with each other here? Like on a topic will the Spurs win it all next year and one person says no and everybody else says I agree. Would that be a fun board?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (irob @ Jun 18 2007, 07:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I dunno but I think yao is somewhere in there</div>I'm not sure if that was a joke or not.
surprised at how many people do not have Elvin Hayes on their list.27000+ points and 16000+ rebounds deserves recognition
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 18 2007, 03:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>surprised at how many people do not have Elvin Hayes on their list.27000+ points and 16000+ rebounds deserves recognition</div>He's a great player, I just have (at least) ten big men ahead of him. I don't see how you can make an argument for him over KG or Drob, both of whom are better scorers, rebounders, passers, and defenders than Hayes was. That's not taking anything away from hayes, but which of my top ten could you make an argument for him over?
sure can.vs KG higher career scoring avg and rebounding avg.Considering that he retired at 38 and the last 5 years his number diminished significantly that's pretty damn good. Chances are at 31 KG's numbers are not gonna rise much if at all.Blocks and steals are hard to compare because for the first 5 years of Elvin's career, those stats were not kept. Passing, well the game is different and big men in general pass a lot better than in those days because you didn't see double teams like you do now.Although so many people like to ignore stats (ie facts) being #6 all time in points and #4 all time in rebounds has got to count for something. Ignoring those facts is plain silly.How can you say there's ten forward centers better than the #6 all time scorer and #4 all time rebounder?KG is more vesatile without a doubt, but Hayes did what a big man was supposed to do in his era and did it great.he's a forgotten player in the history of the game for he most part.David Robinson scored .1 more ppg but shot much better (just over 5% more) but rebounded less. Hampered by injuries his numbers could have been better. His career totals are affected by that too. Robinson was the better defender, but the lenght of his career and missing nearly an entire year make his accomplishments less due to that.Otherwise Penny Hardaway or Grant Hill would be consider one of the best at their posistions.Elvin Hayes was more durable and reliable. He never played less than 80 games in a season throughout his entire 16 seasons.I'd place Hayes accomplishments ahead of both players.
1. David f*cking Robinson2. David f*cking Robinson3. David f*cking Robinson4. David f*cking Robinson5. David f*cking Robinson6. David f*cking Robinson7. David f*cking Robinson8. David f*cking Robinson9. David f*cking Robinson10. David f*cking Robinson
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Although so many people like to ignore stats (ie facts) being #6 all time in points and #4 all time in rebounds has got to count for something. Ignoring those facts is plain silly.</div>No, some people (you) put value in meaningless stats rather than relevant stats that matter. Of course somebody who played 16 seasons in a league where teams took 110 shots per game and missed 60% of them is going to have a lot of career points and rebounds over two guys who played 14 and 12 seasons in a much slower paced game.Kevin Garnett and David Robinson were both superior rebounders to Elvin Hayes. Rebounds per game means a lot less than rebound rate, which is percentage of available rebounds grabbed, because Elvin played in an era with far more available rebounds per game and played more minutes. KG's rebound rate is 17.2, whereas Hayes' was 15.6. DRob's was 17.3.Elvin was also a worse scorer than either of them. His point totals his first four seasons were inflated by a lot of shot attempts on crummy teams, shown by his horrid FG%, and after that point he didn't score nearly as much. Elvin also played for teams faster paced (IE more fg attempts) than any team we've seen in the past 15 years. KG and DRob could have easily averaged 30-15 on teams that fast paced.Elvin Hayes was even in the blocks dept and very deficient in the steals dept, but, more importantly, KG has made all defense first team 6 times, Elvin has made it 0 times. And of course the defense isn't a comparison between Elvin and Drob.As for the passing, just because big men didn't pass back then doesn't give him a pass on that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Jun 21 2007, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As for the passing, just because big men didn't pass back then doesn't give him a pass on that.</div>so wait.. you're not gonna give him a pass on not being in a passing era (because it suits you) but you're gonna blame him for the pace of the game in his playing era?niiice.nice job of the yeah but's due to when a player played.KG and D-Rob are very good players, KG may even be great, but how can you ignore the short career Robinson had?like I said Penny and Grant Hill had some really good years, should they be considered on any top ten lists?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 21 2007, 08:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>so wait.. you're not gonna give him a pass on not being in a passing era (because it suits you) but you're gonna blame him for the pace of the game in his playing era?niiice.nice job of the yeah but's due to when a player played.KG and D-Rob are very good players, KG may even be great, but how can you ignore the short career Robinson had?like I said Penny and Grant Hill had some really good years, should they be considered on any top ten lists?</div>Yes I am, because the pace does not show that he was a better scorer, it simply inflated his stats without any better ability. A 24-12 player today is the equivalent of a 32-16 player back then, simply because pace means more shot attempts which means more points and rebounds to go around. This is pretty simple. On the other hand, who says that big men didn't pass as much back then? There have been 15 times in NBA history that a center got 5 assists per game and 14 of those 15 occured before 1980. 9 of the 15 occured during Elvin's career. Team assists per game were far higher then than they are now as well. How was the era Elvin played in hindering him from getting assists? Elvin was DEAD LAST in the league among starters in assists per 48 minutes in 1969, the only year I bothered to check. Giving him a pass on passing against a guy like KG is like giving ben wallace a pass on scoring in a comparison with Shawn Marion; illogical.And You can't compare DRob's shortened career to penny or Grant's shortened career. Drob won an MVP, a ring, and made more all NBA first teams than Elvin (4-3) and more all nba teams than Elvin (10-4) despite playing a shortened career. Since he accomplished more than Elvin, it shouldn't be an issue that he played a few less seasons. He still was in the NBA at 100% throughout his prime. I'll take the guy who got more accomplishments in the shorter career every day and, more importantly, I'll take the superior player.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tHe_pEsTiLeNcE @ Jun 21 2007, 01:18 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Yes I am, because the pace does not show that he was a better scorer, it simply inflated his stats without any better ability. A 24-12 player today is the equivalent of a 32-16 player back then, simply because pace means more shot attempts which means more points and rebounds to go around. This is pretty simple. On the other hand, who says that big men didn't pass as much back then? There have been 15 times in NBA history that a center got 5 assists per game and 14 of those 15 occured before 1980. 9 of the 15 occured during Elvin's career. Team assists per game were far higher then than they are now as well. How was the era Elvin played in hindering him from getting assists? Elvin was DEAD LAST in the league among starters in assists per 48 minutes in 1969, the only year I bothered to check. Giving him a pass on passing against a guy like KG is like giving ben wallace a pass on scoring in a comparison with Shawn Marion; illogical.And You can't compare DRob's shortened career to penny or Grant's shortened career. Drob won an MVP, a ring, and made more all NBA first teams than Elvin (4-3) and more all nba teams than Elvin (10-4) despite playing a shortened career. Since he accomplished more than Elvin, it shouldn't be an issue that he played a few less seasons. He still was in the NBA at 100% throughout his prime. I'll take the guy who got more accomplishments in the shorter career every day and, more importantly, I'll take the superior player.</div>Again, pace of game seems to be the ultimate arguement against any player who played before 1990.It's lame and quite silly. Elvin Hayes would play today and would be an top caliber player too.well, we're not talking about centers, Hayes was a PF. Hakeem Olajuwon is one of the top 4 centers of all time and his passing is pathetic, it doesn't make him less of a great center.When I look up PF's I see Chris Webber, Charles Barkley and KG at the top of the list. PF's had a different role back then, one Elvin Hayes did really really well.D-Rob won a ring because of Tim Duncan. He was dogged the 4-5 years before Duncan for not being able to make the finals, let alone win a ring. Elvin was 100% for longer and as I stated he was an ironman who always played.The Year Elvin won a title, he led the team in scoring and rebounding.. like a PF is supposed to do.I don't understand for a second how you can gloss over his overall accomplishment of being a strong player for 14 of his 16 years playing.You so quickly disregard the #6 scorer and #4 rebounder in NBA history. "it's due to pacing"come on. It's a silly arguement.fine, D-Rob was a weak player who couldn't carry his team to a title.Elvin led his team to a titleI'll take the man who did more throughout his career and led his team to title, no rode the coatails of one of the all time great PF/C's (Tim Duncan)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jun 21 2007, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>D-Rob won a ring because of Tim Duncan. He was dogged the 4-5 years before Duncan for not being able to make the finals, let alone win a ring. Elvin was 100% for longer and as I stated he was an ironman who always played.The Year Elvin won a title, he led the team in scoring and rebounding.. like a PF is supposed to do.I don't understand for a second how you can gloss over his overall accomplishment of being a strong player for 14 of his 16 years playing.You so quickly disregard the #6 scorer and #4 rebounder in NBA history. "it's due to pacing"come on. It's a silly arguement.fine, D-Rob was a weak player who couldn't carry his team to a title.Elvin led his team to a titleI'll take the man who did more throughout his career and led his team to title, no rode the coatails of one of the all time great PF/C's (Tim Duncan)</div>In the Spurs first championship run, Drob was at least as valuable as Duncan to the series. He played exceptionally well(better defensive-wise then duncan) but let Duncan take over the offensive load much like Duncan did this year with parker.Drob couldnt carry his team to a title not because he was a weak leader but rather that as good as he was and he was great(greater then duncan in his prime in my eyes) but there were better centers in his era. He would have made it to the finals and likely beat orlando if it werent for Hakeem Olajuwon. He also had to face alltime great teams like KJ+Barkley, Karl Malone+Stockton and a very deep starting 5 in the Lakers team with Van Exel,Elden Campbell,Vlade Divac,Eddie Jones and Magic Johnson in 1995. If not he would have beaten Orlando most likely. The teams drob played werent just good teams by todays standards but rather some of the best teams in team history for the rockets,jazz,and suns.
That's nice, but I didn't make the arguement that one of D-Rob's accomplishments was winning a title like it was something he has over Elvin Hayes.Hayes was the top scorer and rebounder on his team in '78.D-Rob was #2 on his team and had to rely on someone else to lead the team.regardless, I consider your entire career totals as an accomplishment too and ranking where elvin Hayes ranks puts him in the top 10 PF/C's of all time
This is not in orderBill RussellWilt ChamberlinKareem Abdul-JabarDavid RobinsonKevin GarnettKarl MaloneTim DuncanHakeem OlajuwonShaquille O'nealKevin McHale
