So what, a few stupid people believe Tim Duncan is better than Hakeem Olajuwon, that doesn't mean he's overrated in general because a few people have brought it up. Most people put Duncan historicly where he should be. Hakeem Olajuwon was amazing and unfortunately not a lot of people know how awesome he was, I wish I could have watched him in his prime.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>First off never getting above 28 a game and averaging around 25 during his prime is not nearly 30, that is a whole 5 to go before 30. Also putting up the fact that he scored below 20 in 5 of his seasons, proves that you don't really know what your talking about when you said that he put up nearly 30 points per game his entire career. Next off, your continuing to throw BS stats out there saying that Lebron averaged 28/8/8, as he averaged 27/6/6 this year, not 28/8/8, so if your going to pull some stat out of your ass, you might want to make sure they are correct as I have caught you on two baseless stats that you have decided to throw out there. As for Lebron James averaging more points than Duncan, that is completely different than this set of circumstances. Duncan is a low post player, whereas Lebron is a perimeter player, and any idiot can tell you that perimeter players are naturally going to average more points and assists than low post players these days. With the game turning to a more perimeter oriented game in this day and age, and with the perimeter players holding the ball for longer amounts of time, they naturally score more. That is why you can't compare stats between the two. What you can compare is how Duncan has dominated his position offensively, just as Lebron has dominated his position offensively. However, Duncan has been able to dominate his position on defense, in a way that Lebron will never be able to be that type of defensive player.Completely diffferent from Shaq and Hakeem who were both Centers and played the same position so comparing stats for them will hold up just a bit more. That is also opposed to Shaq who was more dominant offensively than Hakeem was, and could physically impose his will on another player and where them down physically throughout the game in a way that Hakeem couldn't do. Defensively he wasn't as great as Hakeem, and would at times be lasy, but when he was focused he wasn't to far behind Hakeem in being able to hold down the paint and cause problems on the defensive end for the other team.</div>Well I dont assume to be a stat whore so im sorry if im off 1.5 RPG or 3-4 ppg! Points in the NBA count just the same whether you are a SF or a C. Dominance is dominance.You continue to point out that duncan is better then lebron because of his defense, while saying Shaq is better then Hakeem because he can score a few more points later in his career once there were no true C's left in the game. I'm getting tired of this discussion honestly because its going back and forth and its all contradicting.EDIT: Shaq didnt even score that many more points then Hakeem in their respective primes. In the mid 90s where big name centers were aplenty Hakeem outscored shaq every season btw. like I said it wasnt until the death of the 90s star centers in the late 90s and early 2000s that he went up to 30 ppg. It is widely known the center class has fallen off. but my point is even offensively they are toe to toe. Hakeem could not only score as good if not better, but he could play much better defense(especially late in his career) as he was one of the top 5 defensive players of alltime whereas shaq in his defensive prime I wouldnt even list in the top 20 alltime defensive players especially on his laker stints.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I dont assume to be a stat whore so im sorry if im off 1.5 RPG or 3-4 ppg! Points in the NBA count just the same whether you are a SF or a C. Dominance is a dominance.You continue to point out that duncan is better then lebron because of his defense, while saying Shaq is better then Hakeem because he can score a few more points later in his career once there were no true C's left in the game. I'm getting tired of this discussion honestly because its going back and forth and its all contradicting.</div>I really don't know what to say but wow, anyone that actually trys to compare a small forward's point per game average to a power forward's is not thinking clearly. As a whole, wing players generally score more than low post players, so comparing scoring averages between the two positions, is pretty stupid.Once again, maybe your having a hard time reading, but Shaq was able to get it done on defense and anchor a defense, and still be dominant in the paint on defense during his time because of his size and shot blocking and altering. His defense was just a set behind Hakeem's. That is opposite of Lebron James, who for their positions, is still a good 20 steps behind Duncans. Meanwhile, Shaq's offensive game was more dominant on the game than Hakeem's was because Shaq was also better at passing out of double teams and being able to get his team open shots than Hakeem was which got the entire offense invovled more. That wasn't just at the end of Shaq's career, that was at the beginning of Shaq's career also that he was doing this, and that his scoring average was actually higher when all of the "true Centers" were still there like Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutumbo, Divac who wasn't even that great were all still around. He was dominant early on, as well as later in his career.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't know what to say but wow, anyone that actually trys to compare a small forward's point per game average to a power forward's is not thinking clearly. As a whole, wing players generally score more than low post players, so comparing scoring averages between the two positions, is pretty stupid.Once again, maybe your having a hard time reading, but Shaq was able to get it done on defense and anchor a defense, and still be dominant in the paint on defense during his time because of his size and shot blocking and altering. His defense was just a set behind Hakeem's. That is opposite of Lebron James, who for their positions, is still a good 20 steps behind Duncans. Meanwhile, Shaq's offensive game was more dominant on the game than Hakeem's was because Shaq was also better at passing out of double teams and being able to get his team open shots than Hakeem was which got the entire offense invovled more. That wasn't just at the end of Shaq's career, that was at the beginning of Shaq's career also that he was doing this, and that his scoring average was actually higher when all of the "true Centers" were still there like Robinson, Ewing, Mourning, Mutumbo, Divac who wasn't even that great were all still around. He was dominant early on, as well as later in his career.</div>Shaqs defense was much more then just a ''step behind'' of Hakeem Olajuwon. I dont know if you watched much of Hakeem Olajuwon but one season he won finals MVP and DPOY. Shaq was a decent defender in his orlando days but a majority of the career he was a very lazy defender with the Lakers and to even compare that to Hakeems D is a joke.Hakeem in the era of the great center class88-89 HOU 82 82 36.9 .508 .000 .696 4.10 9.40 13.50 1.8 2.60 3.44 3.35 4.00 24.8 89-90 HOU 82 82 38.1 .501 .167 .713 3.60 10.40 14.00 2.9 2.12 4.59 3.85 3.80 24.3 90-91 HOU 56 50 36.8 .508 .000 .769 3.90 9.80 13.80 2.3 2.16 3.95 3.11 3.90 21.2 91-92 HOU 70 69 37.7 .502 .000 .766 3.50 8.60 12.10 2.2 1.81 4.34 2.67 3.80 21.6 92-93 HOU 82 82 39.5 .529 .000 .779 3.50 9.60 13.00 3.5 1.83 4.17 3.20 3.70 26.1 93-94 HOU 80 80 41.0 .528 .421 .716 2.90 9.10 11.90 3.6 1.60 3.71 3.39 3.60 27.3 94-95 HOU 72 72 39.6 .517 .188 .756 2.40 8.40 10.80 3.5 1.85 3.36 3.29 3.50 27.8 95-96 HOU 72 72 38.8 .514 .214 .724 2.40 8.40 10.90 3.6 1.57 2.88 3.43 3.40 26.9 96-97 HOU 78 78 36.6 .510 .313 .787 2.20 7.00 9.20 3.0 1.50 2.22 3.60 3.20 23.2Shaq in the era of great center classes93-94 ORL 3 3 42.0 .511 .000 .471 5.7 7.7 13.3 2.3 0.7 3.0 3.33 4.30 20.794-95 ORL 21 21 38.3 .577 .000 .571 4.5 7.4 11.9 3.3 0.9 1.9 3.48 4.00 25.795-96 ORL 12 12 38.3 .606 .000 .393 4.1 5.9 10.0 4.6 0.8 1.2 3.67 3.30 25.896-97 LAL 9 9 36.2 .514 .000 .610 4.2 6.3 10.6 3.2 0.6 1.9 2.44 4.10 26.9As you can see he outscored shaq in every year except one which I believe was his 13th year in the NBA. Shaq in his 13th season isnt even a fraction of the player Hakeem was at that age also.So even offensively they are toe to toe, defense is what wins this arguement for Hakeem.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 02:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I really don't know what to say but wow, anyone that actually trys to compare a small forward's point per game average to a power forward's is not thinking clearly. As a whole, wing players generally score more than low post players, so comparing scoring averages between the two positions, is pretty stupid.</div>That is not true at all. Karl Malone averaged much more points then the most dominant SF of his era(pippen) if anything PFs have more ability to score seeing as how they play closer to the basket thus making it easier to score. Most sfs in the history of the nba have not been as good of scorers as most pfs other than maybe Elgin Baylor,Tmac,and Larry Bird.Points count just the same no matter what position puts them in the hoop. so your arguement is still flawed.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 12:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>EDIT: Shaq didnt even score that many more points then Hakeem in their respective primes. In the mid 90s where big name centers were aplenty Hakeem outscored shaq every season btw. like I said it wasnt until the death of the 90s star centers in the late 90s and early 2000s that he went up to 30 ppg. It is widely known the center class has fallen off. but my point is even offensively they are toe to toe. Hakeem could not only score as good if not better, but he could play much better defense(especially late in his career) as he was one of the top 5 defensive players of alltime whereas shaq in his defensive prime I wouldnt even list in the top 20 alltime defensive players especially on his laker stints.</div>And once again your saying retarded stuff, if your going to make accusations like this, you better have some base to them.In 1992-93 when Shaq was a rookie he averaged 23 points per game. Hakeem averaged 26.1. That's one year he outscored Shaq.In 1993-94 Shaq averaged 29.3 points per game as a second year player, and Hakeem averaged 27.3 points per game. In 1994-95 Shaq once again averaged 29.3 points per game as a third year player, and Hakeem averaged 27.8 points per game.I'm pretty sure 1993-94 time frame, and the 1994-95 time frame was part of the mid 90's, so once again your completely wrong. As for the Shaq not averaging 30 points per game until the 90's, the only year he averaged more than those points per game was 1999-2000 where he averaged 29.7 points per game. Other than that year, his two highest scoring years was during his third and second years, at 29.3, with all of the "big name centers" in that time. The proof is below.http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.htmlhttp://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.htmlYou keep on throwing out blatanly false imformation, which is making every part of your arguments baseless and completely false.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 02:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And once again your saying retarded stuff, if your going to make accusations like this, you better have some base to them.In 1992-93 when Shaq was a rookie he averaged 23 points per game. Hakeem averaged 26.1. That's one year he outscored Shaq.In 1993-94 Shaq averaged 29.3 points per game as a second year player, and Hakeem averaged 27.3 points per game. In 1994-95 Shaq once again averaged 29.3 points per game as a third year player, and Hakeem averaged 27.8 points per game.I'm pretty sure 1993-94 time frame, and the 1994-95 time frame was part of the mid 90's, so once again your completely wrong. As for the Shaq not averaging 30 points per game until the 90's, the only year he averaged more than those points per game was 1999-2000 where he averaged 29.7 points per game. Other than that year, his two highest scoring years was during his third and second years, at 29.3, with all of the "big name centers" in that time. The proof is below.http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/olajuha01.htmlhttp://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.htmlYou keep on throwing out blatanly false imformation, which is making every part of your arguments baseless and completely false.</div>Your stats are off base btw.http://www.nba.com/playerfile/shaquille_on...reer_stats.htmlhttp://www.nba.com/playerfile/hakeem_olajuwon/
You do realize that NBA.com can be wrong right? Lets go look at other sports sites to investigate this mishaps:http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/847/ca...6W0mX_qYKSkvLYFyahoo sports. http://www.sportsline.com/nba/players/playerpage/6725Cbssportslinehttp://sports.espn.go.com/nba/players/stats?statsId=847espn.comNow look at those two seasons(1993-94,94-95) on all three of those. So once again, your are wrong, like everything else you have been with in this debate.
Well I guess those sites prove that I am wrong on my ''scored more in the 90s'' but it doesn't change the fact he is a much better defensive player. I would say Hakeem defense was significantly better then shaq to the extent where comparing Hakeem vs Shaqs defense is almost like comparing Duncan vs Lebrons defense if you are counting the Laker years(which like I said are a majority of shaqs career)my mistake in stats was an honest mistake though. you would think NBA.com would have correct stats.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 18 2007, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well I guess those sites prove that I am wrong on my ''scored more in the 90s'' but it doesn't change the fact he is a much better defensive player. I would say Hakeem defense was significantly better then shaq to the extent where comparing Hakeem vs Shaqs defense is almost like comparing Duncan vs Lebrons defense if you are counting the Laker years(which like I said are a majority of shaqs career)my mistake in stats was an honest mistake though. you would think NBA.com would have correct stats. </div>They got me on that before also, they are wrong on those from time to time, I like to use those other sites as they are usually more correct so if I decide to pull that stat card I am right.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (valo35 @ Jun 18 2007, 01:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They got me on that before also, they are wrong on those from time to time, I like to use those other sites as they are usually more correct so if I decide to pull that stat card I am right.</div>The numbers on nba.com are not wrong, they are the same. It lists playoff numbers first, which are different, and not what is being discussed.The scoring is close between those two, and scoring numbers are hugely impacted by how many shots you take. It is the easiest stat to impact by changing team strategy.The fact that one guy gets more points does not mean he is the better at scoring. When you are consistently near the top of the league in scoring and in scoring efficiency, then you have something. That is what O'Neal has.The year Shaq lost the scoring race to Robinson by 0.5 points per game, he took .8 fewer shots/game.The year he lost to Jordan by 0.4 points per game, he took almost 4 fewer shots per game.The year he lost to Iverson by 0.5 points per game, he took almost 4 fewer shots per game.Shaq would have won all those scoring titles if he got the same number of FG attempts as the others (or just by getting within shouting distance of Jordan and Iverson).As a scorer, it's hard to say anybody outperformed him during his career, despite losing those scoring races.
By the casual fan Duncan is very underrated. If you talk with people who don't watch a lot of basketball they would not tell you that Duncan's a top 5 player in the league. You have to realize that lots of people judge players on statistics (mainly PPG) and highlights. I've gotten into arguements with people who think that Duncan isn't even the best player on his team.
