<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 27 2007, 12:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Two inches and 100lb doesn't make a guy a number one pick in my eyes if he is a significantly worse basketball player.</div>Once again, you're failing to look at the other side of the ball. As much as I hate this arguement, it is true- Great big men/defenders win championships. It is simple as that. It doesn't matter that Durant is only 2 inches shorter as he will always be a perimeter player. Oden will always be more efficient, and unlike Durant, will dominate defensively and be a DPOY candidate. As you see with Duncan, big men not only effect their man defensively, but also everyone else. They challenge and block smaller guys shots, and also allow the perimeter defenders to sometimes cheat and play to their ability as they know if their man beats them, the big man is in the paint to stop that player. Oden last year played with his off hand for most of the year yet he still dominated defensively, grabbed a ton of rebounds, and at the end started to show signs of dominance offensively...and he did all of this while many times on bench for fear of foul trouble (something most big men have to adjust to at higher levels). He has a bigger body, stronger, more athletic, and due to his position has more potential than Durant. It would be stupid to take Durant over Oden.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 27 2007, 01:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Once again, you're failing to look at the other side of the ball. As much as I hate this arguement, it is true- Great big men/defenders win championships. It is simple as that. It doesn't matter that Durant is only 2 inches shorter as he will always be a perimeter player. Oden will always be more efficient, and unlike Durant, will dominate defensively and be a DPOY candidate. As you see with Duncan, big men not only effect their man defensively, but also everyone else. They challenge and block smaller guys shots, and also allow the perimeter defenders to sometimes cheat and play to their ability as they know if their man beats them, the big man is in the paint to stop that player. Oden last year played with his off hand for most of the year yet he still dominated defensively, grabbed a ton of rebounds, and at the end started to show signs of dominance offensively...and he did all of this while many times on bench for fear of foul trouble (something most big men have to adjust to at higher levels). He has a bigger body, stronger, more athletic, and due to his position has more potential than Durant. It would be stupid to take Durant over Oden.</div>Durant has the ability to develop into a very good defensive player also. Probably not as good defensively as Oden but enough to be a game-changer. You say Durant will always be a perimeter player but KG was the same as Durant when he entered the league as far as weight comparison. Durant may very well develop into a PF(Which happens to be the same position as Duncan)You take a bigger body, stronger, and more athletic over better all-around player who can develop into a big man also? Not only is he a better scorer, but he can develop into a player who can be an above average defender while hes already a better passer and rebounder and much more versatile. I Keep hearing about centers centers centers and you can keep saying it but teams win titles. A tremendous perimeter player can lead his team to just as many championships if not more if paired with a great team. That was what the Jordan Dynasty,Magic Dynasty, and Larry Bird Dynasty all proved. Sure you can include Parrish,late Kareem, and Rodman into those titles but theres no doubt the leading men for those teams were Jordan,Magic, and Bird. Great players lead great teams to titles.I want to come back and look at this thread in 3 years. Note to BBW posters of June 27 2010 BUMP THIS THREAD THAT DAY!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 27 2007, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Durant has the ability to develop into a very good defensive player also. Probably not as good defensively as Oden but enough to be a game-changer. You say Durant will always be a perimeter player but KG was the same as Durant when he entered the league as far as weight comparison. Durant may very well develop into a PF(Which happens to be the same position as Duncan)</div>T-Mac, LeBron and other very athletic players with amazing wingspans are very weak defenders...what makes you think Durant will be any different. I don't care about Durant's weight, but he is simply not a PF. He is a perimeter oriented player who relies off the mid range/long range jumper, fadeaway jumpers, and slashing from the perimiter to the basket. He is nothing like a KG or Bosh, who have similar bodies but totally different skills and mentalities.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>You take a bigger body, stronger, and more athletic over better all-around player who can develop into a big man also? Not only is he a better scorer, but he can develop into a player who can be an above average defender while hes already a better passer and rebounder and much more versatile. I Keep hearing about centers centers centers and you can keep saying it but teams win titles. A tremendous perimeter player can lead his team to just as many championships if not more if paired with a great team. That was what the Jordan Dynasty,Magic Dynasty, and Larry Bird Dynasty all proved. Sure you can include Parrish,late Kareem, and Rodman into those titles but theres no doubt the leading men for those teams were Jordan,Magic, and Bird. Great players lead great teams to titles.</div>Durant is a piss poor passer, and give me the already lockdown and intimidating defender which can also chip in for 15-20PPG on better shooting over the perimeter player who is a great scorer and not much else. During the home stretch, Oden was starting to look very impressive offensively. Oden will be a much better rebounder in the NBA due to position/size/athleticism. In college Durant could easily dominate the boards due to size disadvantage and being able to play PF. In the NBA that isn't happenning.Jordan was the lone exception, but he is the GOAT and it took those kind of performances to win those 6 rings. Magic was the greatest point of all time (totally different position from Durant) and also had Kareem down low. Bird was much more of an all around player than Durant and also had an amazing frontcourt of Parish/Mchale. These teams surrounding those players were extremely, extremely rare and outside of Jordan's Bulls (who needed Rodman to win their last 3) they all had some dominance down low and the 2 perimeter players did a lot more than just score like Durant. As you have seen throughout history, including recent history, the teams with the dominant big men, offensively and/or defensively, win the rings.Oden averaged 16PPG/10RPG/3BPG on 62% shooting despite playing one handed a good portion of the year which meant he also had a time to shake off rust with right hand. Basically, he wasn't really healthy all year. He also played 7MPG less than Durant and was in an offense which didn't center around him like Texas did with Durant. He was also easily the most impressive defensive player in college, and as I said a big man with DPOY capabilities changes the defense much like a great offensive player does with offense. I don't know how you can say Durant was much better overall or has a higher ceiling.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jun 27 2007, 02:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Jordan was the lone exception, but he is the GOAT and it took those kind of performances to win those 6 rings. Magic was the greatest point of all time (totally different position from Durant) and also had Kareem down low. Bird was much more of an all around player than Durant and also had an amazing frontcourt of Parish/Mchale. These teams surrounding those players were extremely, extremely rare and outside of Jordan's Bulls (who needed Rodman to win their last 3) they all had some dominance down low and the 2 perimeter players did a lot more than just score like Durant. As you have seen throughout history, including recent history, the teams with the dominant big men, offensively and/or defensively, win the rings.</div>My general point was that GREAT TEAMS WIN TITLES. Centers just so happen to be part of teams. Of course you need a great big man to win a title but you also need great perimeter players. Just because Oden is a center doesn't mean he will win more championships, that is my general point. Any position if a great player can lead a great team to a title. You need a center to win a championship but you also need a PG,SG,SF, and PF. One player cant change a team on his own, not even Michael Jordan. Im tired of this discussion because theres no way to prove either of our points until we look back on it 3 years from now.
I agree, you need a perimeter star along with your big man star....but theres always going to be great perimeter players, its really hard to find a great big man though...thats why they are so much more important, which is why Oden will most likely go 1st.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jun 27 2007, 03:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I agree, you need a perimeter star along with your big man star....but theres always going to be great perimeter players, its really hard to find a great big man though...thats why they are so much more important, which is why Oden will most likely go 1st.</div>Big MenTim DuncanAmare StoudemireKevin GarnettChris BoshJermaine O'nealCarlos BoozerShaquille O'nealYao MingBen WallaceCarmelo AnthonyDirk NowitzkiPerimeterKobe BryantSteve NashTracy McgradyPaul PierceJason KiddVince CarterAllen IversonRay AllenChauncey Billups Lebron JamesJoe JohnsonYour point is?
First off, Anthony isnt a big man. Heres my list of GREAT perimeter players and GREAT big men.<u>Big Men</u>Shaquille O'NealKevin GarnettAmare StoudemireDirk NowitzkiTim DuncanAll the others big might be good...really good, but the rest havent proven to be great.<u>Perimeter Players</u>Paul PierceCarmelo AnthonyDwyane WadeAllen IversonLeBron JamesKobe BryantVince CarterGilbert ArenasTony ParkerSteve NashChauncey Billupsperimeter players outweigh the big men...yet big men are a must need unless your a incredible player like MJ...
All you did was take out alot of great big men I listed to favor perimeter players. There are just as many great big men in the NBA as Perimeter players. that was my point. The goal of the draft is to draft the best player for your needs. Durant is a better basketball player period. I'm actually getting tired of this debate but my point in general is that drafting a big man isnt always better then drafting a perimeter player in the goal of winning a title.You need 5 players to win a title.Yes Big Men win titles, but EVERY big man who won a title had a great cast. Perimeter Players win titles, wing players win titles, big men win titles, GREAT PLAYERS WIN TITLES. period.BTW Carmelo Anthony is a big man.
True...if we were debating to draft either Durant or Horford...easily Durant, but Oden might become a legendary big man, which most legendary big men will championships.And the perimeter players I listed have shown greatness in the playoffs at some point of their career...they are great and there isnt as many great bigs..as my post proved.I understand that great big men need a good cast...but its so hard to get your hand on a great big man, thats my arguement and thats why teams would take Oden over Durant..
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 27 2007, 02:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>My general point was that GREAT TEAMS WIN TITLES. Centers just so happen to be part of teams. Of course you need a great big man to win a title but you also need great perimeter players. Just because Oden is a center doesn't mean he will win more championships, that is my general point. Any position if a great player can lead a great team to a title. You need a center to win a championship but you also need a PG,SG,SF, and PF. One player cant change a team on his own, not even Michael Jordan. Im tired of this discussion because theres no way to prove either of our points until we look back on it 3 years from now.</div>Yes, teams win titles, but it is much easier to do it around a center. Why? Becuase a great defensive center can change that side of the ball moreso than a great scorer offensively. He affects all 5 defensive players on the floor, and can make defense much, much easier for everyone else and allow them to play defense with a bit of risk (like playing passing lanes) as they know the big man will be behind them to block the shot. And as Hakeem showed before Drexler came, and as Duncan showed in '03, they don't need all star level perimeter players with them to be successful. Great perimeter players do need more help than great big man, specifically down low.It is possible to build a championship team around a great perimeter scorer, but unfortunately Durant is not near the level of playmaker he needs to be for it be likely at all. It will be much easier to build around Oden.I am not saying Oden will be the better player (although I do believe that) but in no way was Durant all that much better than Oden this past season, and Durant doesn't have the potential or high likelyhood of being a person to semi-easily build a championship caliber team around that Oden has. Therefor Oden is easily the better choice.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jun 27 2007, 12:59 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>You say Durant will always be a perimeter player but KG was the same as Durant when he entered the league as far as weight comparison. Durant may very well develop into a PF(Which happens to be the same position as Duncan)</div> There you go again. Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett - Both skinny when they entered the league. - But both were post players at heart
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Jun 27 2007, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>There you go again. Chris Bosh and Kevin Garnett - Both skinny when they entered the league. - But both were post players at heart</div>I'm new to this thread, but are you saying that Chris is a post player at heart? Cause that's not his game. He's a slasher, athletic force inside, and a jump shooter. He still isn't very comfortable posting up, although he's working on it.
