Ben Gordon has made many game-winners. I dont even think 50 games is off the mark either maybe not as far as game-winners but as far as closing out games well. Before he came to the bulls we hadnt made the playoffs in nearly a decade, ben gordon always plays his best in the fourth quarter and that's what gives us our edge offensively in tight situations.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF0ay2ZeJhIhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5F_BDc-w4Yhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QF-AI_aEhd0etc.
just because he's made game winners doesn't mean he's the best shooter in the nba? he's clearly one of the best, but I don't even know how you can classify one as "THE" best...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaRdYC26 @ Jul 8 2007, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>just because he's made game winners doesn't mean he's the best shooter in the nba? he's clearly one of the best, but I don't even know how you can classify one as "THE" best...</div>I never said Ben Gordon was the best shooter in the NBA. I am just defending that he is very clutch. I had him number 4 overall shooter in the nba and better then michael redd(who is a better scorer but not shooter in my eyes)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 8 2007, 04:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I never said Ben Gordon was the best shooter in the NBA. I am just defending that he is very clutch. I had him number 4 overall shooter in the nba and better then michael redd(who is a better scorer but not shooter in my eyes)</div>Oh, well, whatever. The whole "who's the best shooter in the NBA" thing is all opinion for the most part. Obviously their's a difference between saying Shaq and Ray Allen, but Kyle Korver and Michael Redd, and sh*t like that, for the most part is just opinion.
For the people that are saying that Gordon isn't a clutch player. Here are some clutch statistics from 82games.com:Gordon04-05: per 48: 42.7 pts | 48 FG% | 58 EFG% | 11.6 FTM05-06: per 48: 41.8 pts | 48 FG% | 55 EFG% | 7.1 FTM06-07: per 48: 44.4 pts | 36 FG% | 40 EFG% | 17.6 FTMAs you can see last year was a down year for Gordon. Particularly in his shooting percentage, but he got to the line a ton in the clutch.Let's compare that to a guy who many people think was super clutch last season, Gilbert Arenas:06-07: per 48: 47.8 pts | 38 FG% | 44 EFG% | 19.8 FTMThats Arenas' best clutch season in the last 3 years. (Only looked up 3 since that's how long Gordon has been in the league).Kobe last year:06-07: per 48: 47.4 pts | 40 FG% | 44 EFG% | 18.1 FTMThat's also Kobe's best in the last 3 years.Then if you look at Redd, his best year isn't even close to Gordon's worst. Ray Allen is a little bit better, but even he doesn't come close to Gordon.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (junot111 @ Jul 8 2007, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>hinrich cant shoot for sh*teverytime I watch a bulls game he always pulls up for 3 and never gets any in.. idk why people consider him a good 3 pointshooter</div>Maybe because he shot 42% from 3 last year. You must not watch many Bulls games, because a guy that "never gets any in" doesn't shoot 42%.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thabo @ Jul 8 2007, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For the people that are saying that Gordon isn't a clutch player. Here are some clutch statistics from 82games.com:Gordon04-05: per 48: 42.7 pts | 48 FG% | 58 EFG% | 11.6 FTM05-06: per 48: 41.8 pts | 48 FG% | 55 EFG% | 7.1 FTM06-07: per 48: 44.4 pts | 36 FG% | 40 EFG% | 17.6 FTMAs you can see last year was a down year for Gordon. Particularly in his shooting percentage, but he got to the line a ton in the clutch.Let's compare that to a guy who many people think was super clutch last season, Gilbert Arenas:06-07: per 48: 47.8 pts | 38 FG% | 44 EFG% | 19.8 FTMThats Arenas' best clutch season in the last 3 years. (Only looked up 3 since that's how long Gordon has been in the league).Kobe last year:06-07: per 48: 47.4 pts | 40 FG% | 44 EFG% | 18.1 FTMThat's also Kobe's best in the last 3 years.Then if you look at Redd, his best year isn't even close to Gordon's worst. Ray Allen is a little bit better, but even he doesn't come close to Gordon.Maybe because he shot 42% from 3 last year. You must not watch many Bulls games, because a guy that "never gets any in" doesn't shoot 42%.</div>This is why I love not being the only bulls fan anymore. Ben is clutch. period.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thabo @ Jul 8 2007, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>For the people that are saying that Gordon isn't a clutch player. Here are some clutch statistics from 82games.com:Gordon04-05: per 48: 42.7 pts | 48 FG% | 58 EFG% | 11.6 FTM05-06: per 48: 41.8 pts | 48 FG% | 55 EFG% | 7.1 FTM06-07: per 48: 44.4 pts | 36 FG% | 40 EFG% | 17.6 FTMAs you can see last year was a down year for Gordon. Particularly in his shooting percentage, but he got to the line a ton in the clutch.Let's compare that to a guy who many people think was super clutch last season, Gilbert Arenas:06-07: per 48: 47.8 pts | 38 FG% | 44 EFG% | 19.8 FTMThats Arenas' best clutch season in the last 3 years. (Only looked up 3 since that's how long Gordon has been in the league).Kobe last year:06-07: per 48: 47.4 pts | 40 FG% | 44 EFG% | 18.1 FTMThat's also Kobe's best in the last 3 years.</div>Although I do agree that Ben Gordon is the better shooter than Gilbert Arenas these stats are flawed. You find Arenas having to create his own shots much more often than you see Gordon doing it. Also, despite Gordon being a better shooter than Arenas, Arenas is a much better scorer. When it comes to the clutch, Arenas's first priority is to try to win it at the line while Gordon usually chucks up a shot. The stats you posted don't come even close to telling the entire story.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 8 2007, 04:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Although I do agree that Ben Gordon is the better shooter than Gilbert Arenas these stats are flawed. You find Arenas having to create his own shots much more often than you see Gordon doing it. Also, despite Gordon being a better shooter than Arenas, Arenas is a much better scorer. When it comes to the clutch, Arenas's first priority is to try to win it at the line while Gordon usually chucks up a shot. The stats you posted don't come even close to telling the entire story.</div>No one is disputing that Arenas isnt a better scorer, as seen by the thread title ''best shooter in nba''. Arenas while a decent clutch player, also is not as clutch as BG. Thabo was trying to show that all the big name players in the NBA who everyone thinks are very clutch are actually not as clutch as BG is. Also, in the closing minutes of games Ben Gordon(as our first option) gets just as much attention as Arenas im sure.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 8 2007, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No one is disputing that Arenas isnt a better scorer, as seen by the thread title ''best shooter in nba''. Arenas while a decent clutch player, also is not as clutch as BG. Thabo was trying to show that all the big name players in the NBA who everyone thinks are very clutch are actually not as clutch as BG is. Also, in the closing minutes of games Ben Gordon(as our first option) gets just as much attention as Arenas im sure.</div>The Bulls have way more options than the Wizards or many of the teams with clutch players have. Arenas has Antawn and Caron who are notorious for choking. So when Arenas has the ball you always see him double teamed. I've never seen the Lakers not go to Kobe in the clutch since Shaq left except for one time when Lamar Odom threw up an airball. Bryant always is the one who is taking shots late in the game and every team knows that.While when you get to the Bulls, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon and several players on their bench can show up and hit that shot. Luol Deng did wonders for the Bulls in the playoffs. They have so many guys who are capable of knocking down big shots that it is hard for the defense not to keep honest.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 8 2007, 04:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Bulls have way more options than the Wizards or many of the teams with clutch players have. Arenas has Antawn and Caron who are notorious for choking. So when Arenas has the ball you always see him double teamed. I've never seen the Lakers not go to Kobe in the clutch since Shaq left except for one time when Lamar Odom threw up an airball. Bryant always is the one who is taking shots late in the game and every team knows that.While when you get to the Bulls, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon and several players on their bench can show up and hit that shot. Luol Deng did wonders for the Bulls in the playoffs. They have so many guys who are capable of knocking down big shots that it is hard for the defense not to keep honest.</div>The bulls like the teams listed almost entirely give the ball to gordon in game-winning opportunity's also. I believe every player gets attention in the closing minutes of a basketball game honestly and your point that ''Arenas gets less clutch shots off because he is more focused on'' is invalid. Michael Jordan was more focused on in the closing seconds then anybody ever yet he still made those amazing shots. Great clutch shooters are great clutch shooters regardless of circumstance.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 8 2007, 03:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Although I do agree that Ben Gordon is the better shooter than Gilbert Arenas these stats are flawed. You find Arenas having to create his own shots much more often than you see Gordon doing it. Also, despite Gordon being a better shooter than Arenas, Arenas is a much better scorer. When it comes to the clutch, Arenas's first priority is to try to win it at the line while Gordon usually chucks up a shot. The stats you posted don't come even close to telling the entire story.</div>Well no stat is perfect, but they provide some truth.When the game is on the line Ben Gordon has the ball in his hands either creating off the dribble or utilizing a pick. Nobody is going to allow him to get the ball if he's just standing in the corner.I don't think anyone is arguing that Gordon is a better scorer than Arenas.Gordon's, just like Arenas', priority is to win the game. As you can see by the stats, Arenas only goes to the freethrow line a couple of more times than Gordon in the clutch. And I don't think anyone will argue that Arenas is far superior at getting to the line than Gordon. But in the clutch it's not that much of a disparity.You speak of Gordon chucking up shots when your defending Arenas? Arenas is the biggest chucker in the league. How many 3's did he jack up last year in game ending situations? I know he made a couple, but he also missed some. In practically all of those situations situations he could have gotten a better shot closer to the basket.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 8 2007, 03:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Bulls have way more options than the Wizards or many of the teams with clutch players have. Arenas has Antawn and Caron who are notorious for choking. So when Arenas has the ball you always see him double teamed. I've never seen the Lakers not go to Kobe in the clutch since Shaq left except for one time when Lamar Odom threw up an airball. Bryant always is the one who is taking shots late in the game and every team knows that.While when you get to the Bulls, Luol Deng, Kirk Hinrich, Ben Gordon and several players on their bench can show up and hit that shot. Luol Deng did wonders for the Bulls in the playoffs. They have so many guys who are capable of knocking down big shots that it is hard for the defense not to keep honest.</div>You have Caron Butler, an All-Star. Jamison, a former All-Star.Deng is useless in the clutch unless someone passes him the ball for his 18 foot baseline shot. He can not create his own shot. Hinrich is notorious for choking in the clutch. Just look up their clutch numbers.Outside of those 3, the Bulls have nobody that can score. Duhon can't shoot. Wallace is useless. Thomas is a 5 feet and in player. Thabo was inconsistent and barley got anytime. Sweetney is fat. Andrieskevicious has a long neck. And so on.Anyways, I've seen Ben Gordon triple teamed this year in the closing minutes of games. He still ended up dropping 40. Games that automatically come to mind are Phoenix, Miami, and Milwuakee.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thabo @ Jul 8 2007, 05:01 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Well no stat is perfect, but they provide some truth.When the game is on the line Ben Gordon has the ball in his hands either creating off the dribble or utilizing a pick. Nobody is going to allow him to get the ball if he's just standing in the corner.I don't think anyone is arguing that Gordon is a better scorer than Arenas.Gordon's, just like Arenas', priority is to win the game. As you can see by the stats, Arenas only goes to the freethrow line a couple of more times than Gordon in the clutch. And I don't think anyone will argue that Arenas is far superior at getting to the line than Gordon. But in the clutch it's not that much of a disparity.You speak of Gordon chucking up shots when your defending Arenas? Arenas is the biggest chucker in the league. How many 3's did he jack up last year in game ending situations? I know he made a couple, but he also missed some. In practically all of those situations situations he could have gotten a better shot closer to the basket.</div>I wasn't calling Gordon a chucker. I probabely should have used 'shoot' but I just meant to say that Arenas's main goal is to get to the free throw line. Of course Arenas is a chucker but he has the excuse of 'that's how the Wizards play'. Arenas does often head to the basket in the clutch but I do agree that he should do that more than take a jumper.Also, Thabo, Jamison and Caron have not been able to perform in the clutch. Last year we found ourselves going to Jamison, Caron, or Gilbert and often losing in the clutch. This year Arenas has proven to help us out much more.Instead of looking at statistic's I think we should make a list of games that each player has performed at another level in the clutch this season and games that each player has choked in the clutch this season. These statistic's are only for the last couple of minutes when it could be a close game or it could be a blow out.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 8 2007, 04:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Also, Thabo, Jamison and Caron have not been able to perform in the clutch. Last year we found ourselves going to Jamison, Caron, or Gilbert and often losing in the clutch. This year Arenas has proven to help us out much more.Instead of looking at statistic's I think we should make a list of games that each player has performed at another level in the clutch this season and games that each player has choked in the clutch this season. These statistic's are only for the last couple of minutes when it could be a close game or it could be a blow out.</div>I'm saying the exact same thing. Deng and Hinrich are not particularly effective in the clutch. And if it's a game winning shot type of situation, they are basically useless. Everybody and their blind grandmother knows that Ben Gordon is getting the shot at that time. And the man is 6 feet tall; it's not exactly easy for him to just shoot over somebody.Anyways, I've seen every game that Ben Gordon has played in a Bulls uniform. And I know he's clutch. Clutch is not just making game winning shots. 82games defines it as the last 5 minutes of a game or overtime in which neither team is ahead by more than 5 points. I know last year was a down year for him in that aspect. I can think of a 5 missed buzzer beaters right off the top of my head.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thabo @ Jul 8 2007, 05:25 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm saying the exact same thing. Deng and Hinrich are not particularly effective in the clutch. And if it's a game winning shot type of situation, they are basically useless. Everybody and their blind grandmother knows that Ben Gordon is getting the shot at that time. And the man is 6 feet tall; it's not exactly easy for him to just shoot over somebody.Anyways, I've seen every game that Ben Gordon has played in a Bulls uniform. And I know he's clutch. Clutch is not just making game winning shots. 82games defines it as the last 5 minutes of a game or overtime in which neither team is ahead by more than 5 points. I know last year was a down year for him in that aspect. I can think of a 5 missed buzzer beaters right off the top of my head.</div>I saw Deng perform great in the clutch during the Heat series. I did not necceseraly see him take the final shot but in the last 5 minutes he was unstopable. Ben Gordon will likely take the final three if it's neccesary but I would be more afraid to double team a guy like Kobe leaving Luke Walton or someone else open than double team Gordon and leave Hinrich or Deng open. As I said before, a list is the only way to truly tell how clutch someone is. I'm not neccesaraly saying that the player had to hit the final shot but he had to perform great in the last 5 minutes or OT.
Baron Davis, of the powerhouse Golden State Warriors.(for being a clutch shooter, not the best shooter overall).
he still has pretty horrible percentages. especially his ft's. consistency is part of shooting. period.
