[quote name='BluffCityBlue' post='412912' date='Jul 14 2007, 06:00 PM']The whole concept of having a big man to contend is to get you some easy shots by throwing the ball in the post, the star big men in the league can get you easy post points like that, players like Duncan, KG, Gasol, Amare, Jefferson, Boozer etc.[/quote]The Bulls would love to get a guy like that. Seeing how there are only a handful of those guys in the league, and almost all of them are not available, the point is moot.The whole Bulls need a post presence thing is way overblown. All we need is someone who at least demands attention down there so Gordon, Deng and Hinrich aren't constantly double teamed. Somebody that can score 12-13 points at a decent clip would do wonders for the Bulls. Smith won't be that guy, IMO. But Tyrus Thomas should be down the line.And yeah teams with good big men usually win titles. But who was the least team to win a title without great guard play? Point being is that it takes both. There are a couple of things people need to understand when it comes to Paxson and drafting. For one he always drafts guys with high character who come from winning programs. The guy wants winners on his team. Look at all his picks: Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas, Noah, Nocioni (yeah he wasn't drafted, but the point stands).Also, when drafting big men he would rank their skill importance something along these linesL1. Defense2. Rebounding3. Defense4. Rebounding5. ScoringHe values defense and rebounding from a big man much more than offense. And it's been proven that you can win with a defensive big man who doesn't score much more easily than a guy who scores a bunch but is clueless on defense. Take a look at a guy like Eddy Curry. I don't even know what this means considering Gordon NEVER guards the opposing shooting guard. And nobody is expecting him too. He's simply here to provide depth at the 4 and 5 spots while Thomas and Noah develop. That's why his contract is for only 2 years. The Bulls are not in win now mode, so they've got time.
Actually, two of them are. Thomas isnt a post presence, hes a Marion type of player who can play the 4 with his rebounding and defense, but offensivley isnt much like a PF. And if you look at the NBA Champions in the past, alot more than not have dominant scoring big men....the big man situation ISNT overblown. Both Alridge and Hawes have great character...and dont bring the "winners" crap to me. Almost every player in the 1st rnd has always been winners there entire lives. True, but Curry didnt have Ben Wallace playing with him. All you need is a post scorer when Wallace is your C...you dont have to get a full package big man, thats the luxury of having Wallace. Exactly I said that cause I once heard a Bulls fan say PJ Brown is a dominant enough post scorer for the Bulls to win the Finals...
[quote name='BluffCityBlue' post='413295' date='Jul 14 2007, 11:44 PM']Actually, two of them are.[/quote]I'm assuming you mean KG and Gasol. First Gasol, I don't even think he's available but even if he was Memphis wants too much for him. We tried that last year.Then you have KG. Say we have to give up Deng and Gordon for him. Where does that leave us? Minny of the East; KG ain't doing jack over there with nothing around him. I guess it depends on how you define post presence. If you mean a guy that you can dump the ball down to with his back to the basket, then there are only a handful of those guys in the league: Shaq, Duncan, Yao, Pau, who else?What is overblown is that I always here people say, "the Bulls need a marquee big man to contend." That to me is overblown. We need somebody that at least requires some kind of attention around the basket. A guy that can actually make layups without being rejected by the rim ala PJ Brown. Speaking of Brown, we won 49 games with him as our starting 4. Hawes isn't regarded highly on defense and comes with some health concerns. I'm glad we didn't go after him.Aldridge was a guy I wanted us to pick. But word around the Bulls is that management saw him as being 'soft'. I think he would have been a good fit with Wallace. But you have to remember that Wallace was signed after the draft.Regarding Curry, in theory he would work well with a guy like Wallace. But we had a guy like Wallace in Tyson Chandler. Fact of the matter is that Curry and Chandler were a horrible paring. Curry needs somebody to draw attention away from him so he can be effective, neither Tyson or Wallace do that. In fact the opposite would happen. And in my opinion, on offense you're as good as you're best player, but on defense you're as bad as you're worst player, so a guy like Curry, who is horrendous defensively, ultimately hurts you more than he helps you. And he's a big man which makes it even worse. Exactly what? You said that he struggles guarding bigger guards, when the fact of the matter is that he never guards them. We have Hinrich, who always takes the other teams biggest threat in the backcourt. Furthermore, the Bulls had statistically the best backcourt in the league in terms of production allowed to their opponents. PJ Brown was garbage. Joe Smith is a huge upgrade to him. Brown was a guy who scored 6 points a game on 40% shooting, and he's a frickin power forward. He also rocked a PER of 12 while doing so. He and his 2 inch vertical couldn't guard his shadow last year.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 14 2007, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The whole concept of having a big man to contend is to get you some easy shots by throwing the ball in the post, the star big men in the league can get you easy post points like that, players like Duncan, KG, Gasol, Amare, Jefferson, Boozer etc. Joe Smith is going to help, but he isnt good enough anymore to be that dominant post scorer like so many championship caliber teams have. Personaly, I dont like the drafts Paxson has had as far as the 4th and 9th picks in the last two drafts. They had the opputunity to get potential post scorers in Hawes and Aldridge. They wouldnt have been good enough right away, but in the future they could be very effective. Bulls are a good team, but theres certain areas that they are weak at. At the 2 spot, you have great scoring coming outve Gordon but the guy is at most 6'3, seems shorter than that, and he doesn do well defensivley against the elite 2guards in the NBA. Like I said above, the Bulls still dont have a scoring big man despite have two lotto picks in the last 2 drafts. I honestly think its best to move Gordon for a good post scorer and sliding Thabo at the 2...who I think is going to turn out to be a very fine player.Signing Joe Smith was a nice pickup, but he isnt going to put them over the hump...although they are on the verge of becoming an elite team not just in the East...but in the NBA.</div>Ok your saying gordon cant guard well, but if you watch the bulls he usually plays smaller guards and seeing as he scores more points then he gives up and the fact that he comes up big at the end of games he is very invaluable to us. Also your saying we trade our best scorer and start a guy who averaged 3 ppg? That's a good way to go back to missing the playoffs unless we were to get a KG(which I very much doubt) Gordon is not a problem for the bulls, he is one of our biggest bright spots. The guy could end up the next Ray Allen.
I was talking about KG and Jermain Oneal.Btw, theres Krstic, Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, and even guys who dont post up like Amare, KG, Okur, Bosh are good enough and jjst as sucessful. Yes you won 49 games during the season, but it all changes in the playoffs, most championship teams have a good scoring big man. The only ones recent to date were your team, the Bulls, but you also had the greatest player ever. You also mention the Wallace with Curry thing wouldnt work because Curry and Chanlder didnt work, in Chicago, Chandler wasnt nearly as effective as Wallace is. The Tyson Chandler we see in New Orleans isnt the same one we saw in Chicagkay, you have Kirk Hinrich guarding the 2guards of the NBA...hes a nice defender for PGs, but hes undersized to guard the SGs. Im not saying he doesn guard some nicely, but Hinrich nor Gordan can guard the Kobe, Tmacs, and Ray Allens. Both are undersized to guard the 2.I still think that passing on Aldridge especially was a mistake. You now have 3 big men whos best part of there game is defense. Not saying thats a bad thing...but none of them dont have a good and refined offensive game either....and its apparent to contend you need a dominant post scorer.Primetime:What im saying is if you can get a low post scorer for Gordan, you should do that. You could probably swing Deng to the 2 and Nocioni at the 3, but I really do think Thabo is going to be a good player...maybe not star, but hes a solid player, and with the post scorer you would get for Gordon you can live with losing Gordons offense.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 15 2007, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I was talking about KG and Jermain Oneal.Btw, theres Krstic, Al Jefferson, Zach Randolph, Carlos Boozer, and even guys who dont post up like Amare, KG, Okur, Bosh are good enough. Yes you won 49 games during the season, but it all changes in the playoffs, most championship teams have a good scoring big man. The only ones recent to date were your team, the Bulls, but you also had the greatest player ever. You also mention the Wallace with Curry thing wouldnt work because Curry and Chanlder didnt work, in Chicago, Chandler wasnt nearly as effective as Wallace is. The Tyson Chandler we see in New Orleans isnt the same one we saw in Chicago.Okay, you have Kirk Hinrich guarding the 2guards of the NBA...hes a nice defender for PGs, but hes undersized to guard the SGs. Im not saying he doesn guard some nicely, but Hinrich nor Gordan can guard the Kobe, Tmacs, and Ray Allens. Both are undersized to guard the 2.I still think that passing on Aldridge especially was a mistake. You now have 3 big men whos best part of there game is defense. Not saying thats a bad thing...but none of them dont have a good and refined offensive game either....and its apparent to contend you need a dominant post scorer.</div>Kirk Hinrich does more then enough defensively against most sgs in the nba despite his height. He was on the all-defensive second team this year along with big ben. Also he has done solid against the players you listed, and if we need a height advantage we often switch Nocioni on the bigger two guards-sfs seeing as he is a very good hustle defensive player. None of our problems stem from our defense, we are more then capable of holding teams from scoring.I agree passing on aldridge wasnt a good move but our guard position is very solidified.
Im not saying your guard position is bad, Chicago has a very good backcourt...but I dont see how you cant agree that Gordon isnt a defensive liability. As much as you want your player to stay on the matchup, it gets switched, and Gordon has gotten beaten of the dribble or shot over several times. If you can trade Gordon for a good big man, Paxson would do it in a second. Hes offered Gordon up for Gasol....only reason that trade didnt go through was Memphis wanted Deng.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BluffCityBlue @ Jul 15 2007, 02:02 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Primetime:What im saying is if you can get a low post scorer for Gordan, you should do that. You could probably swing Deng to the 2 and Nocioni at the 3, but I really do think Thabo is going to be a good player...maybe not star, but hes a solid player, and with the post scorer you would get for Gordon you can live with losing Gordons offense.</div>No team is going to give us KG or JO for Gordon. If anything we'd lose value in the deal and likely have to include another player to even possibly get KG or O'neal and break up our core. Our problem is offense, and trading our best offensive player isnt going to help us at all even if we need a so-called dominant post-player to make some noise.We do need a big man but I dont believe we need a big man in the terms you are speaking. I think down the road, tyrus will be all the big man we need to end up winning a title(or more) He is going to be a great defensive player and our great defense should lead the way. He will also likely become a good offensive threat and I see him getting a good 15-18 ppg in his prime which will be plenty.What Jordans bulls proved more then that MJ was great, was that if you have an amazing defense you dont need a big man. And that was against much superior competition then we have today. Even if we dont make anymore major moves, this team will have another championship by the start of the next decade.
Yes, Yes, Yes Billy King our Sixers gm did not give him a max contract thank you god. Have fun Bulls he be pretty good of the bench.
Like I said, find me the team that last won a championship without great guard play, it takes both to win.Like PrimeTime said, our problem last year was the fact that our 4 and 5 men struggled to give us a combined 15 points a night. I think that will improve this year just through Tyrus and Noah, and Smith should help.In no way was defense our problem. Especially in the backcourt; where, like I said, we were the best in the league in terms of production allowed. Ben Gordon is seriously underrated. He's an average defender, not horrible like some people try to make it seem. He rarely gets posted up because he's built like a tank and he's also quick enough to keep up with smaller players.And Hinrich is arguably the best defensive point guard in the league. He does an excellent job on most of those bigger guys you named, among others.Kobe against the Bulls last year:18.5 ppg on 33%Ray Allen played in one game against us last year and scored 29, but took a crap load of shots and shot 32%.Arenas, 22 ppg on 40%He can also slow down the small guys like Parker (9.5 ppg on 40%) and Ford (10 ppg on 33%).
Thabo Sefolosha is developing and should also help the Bulls backcourt defense this year.... people seem to forget about him. Hinrich usually does well against big guards, but there are some guys (Vince Carter comes to mind) that he has trouble stopping. Thabo should definitely be an asset of the bench this year.
