Scottie Pippen is right up there. Before Pippen joined the Bulls, Jordan couldn't get his team past the first round despite averaging 37 PPG. His team was completely dependant on him and alone Jordan could hardly deliver a .500 record. When Pippen came into the NBA he instantly meshed with Jordan and very soon they were the leaders of arguebely the greatest team of all time. Pippen's game was inovative. He was a point-forward and many of the great players today such as Tracy McGrady and LeBron James shaped their game after him. Pippen was amazingly versatile as well, all aspects of his game were at top-notch.People look over Pippen because he had Jordan but they forget that the Bulls were a mediocre team before Pippen. Even when Jordan was on his first retirement Pippen still kept the Bulls a 50 win team. He's a top 5 SF in my book.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 15 2007, 05:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Scottie Pippen is right up there. Before Pippen joined the Bulls, Jordan couldn't get his team past the first round despite averaging 37 PPG. His team was completely dependant on him and alone Jordan could hardly deliver a .500 record. When Pippen came into the NBA he instantly meshed with Jordan and very soon they were the leaders of arguebely the greatest team of all time.</div>They didn't mesh instantly, it took a year or 2 of Phil Jackson's mind tricks and nagging for the 2 players to mesh. Before then they were always bickering about the other in terms of getting X amount of shots up and whatnot. The Bulls got more talent and they started winning, but Phil Jackson was the key to the team, at least in the early years. He was the guy who put Pippen at point forward, he got Michael to settle down and actually play within the triangle, etc...<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Even when Jordan was on his first retirement Pippen still kept the Bulls a 50 win team.</div>They also got some new guys that season, and I feel that one season was a bit of a fluke. Why? Because the team was 34-32 in the 2nd season without MJ before MJ returned (when they went on a run at end of season and got higher seeding).Anyway, he is definately one the the top SF of all time. Exactly where...I don't know, I'd have to see a list of SF's and then sort it out. But probably top 5 SF of all time. He was incredibly skilled and really was all over the floor....scoring, playmaking, rebounding, defending...he did it all, and well. He is definately at times overrated, but he was still an incredible specimen.
Pippen was a big help and a good "sidekick" for Jordan, but I don't think he was as good as a guy like Larry Bird...
I'd rank Pippen pretty high. He was an excellent defender and very good offensivly too. He probably isn't the best SF ever, but he's definatly top 5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Jul 15 2007, 08:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd rank Pippen pretty high. He was an excellent defender and very good offensivly too. He probably isn't the best SF ever, but he's definatly top 5.</div>Thats a fair range, I have him right under Bird,Baylor,and Lebron on alltime SFs.
I'd rank him above Lebron. Pippen would shut down lebron, Pippen could also defend the point guards. his defense on Magic in the 91 finals, Johnson in 93, Payton in 96, and Stockton in 97 and 98 opened the door for the Bulls winning those titles.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Jul 15 2007, 07:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd rank him above Lebron. Pippen would shut down lebron, Pippen could also defend the point guards. his defense on Magic in the 91 finals, Johnson in 93, Payton in 96, and Stockton in 97 and 98 opened the door for the Bulls winning those titles.</div>His defense on Magic in '91 is pretty overrated. He was only able to slow him down in game 2. Magic pretty much had his way with him in the rest of that finals, I believe he even got 20 assists in game 5.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Jul 15 2007, 10:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'd rank him above Lebron. Pippen would shut down lebron, Pippen could also defend the point guards. his defense on Magic in the 91 finals, Johnson in 93, Payton in 96, and Stockton in 97 and 98 opened the door for the Bulls winning those titles.</div>Pippen could also shut out Larry Bird. what makes larry bird better then pippen if lebron isnt?by your logic im saying.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 16 2007, 02:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pippen could also shut out Larry Bird. what makes larry bird better then pippen if lebron isnt?by your logic im saying.</div>B-R-A-I-N-S :winkglasses:
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 16 2007, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>B-R-A-I-N-S :winkglasses:</div>Pippen also has more championships then Bird despite a poorer cast. If lebron isnt better then pip, then neither is bird. Pip had just as much brains as Bird. I actually believe bird is better but rednecks logic is flawed.
I would put him in the top five easily. At this point in time, I think at the small forward position you can really only put Larry Bird, and Elgin Baylor ahead of him as all time greats. I rank him as third at this point in time, ahead of Lebron James because Pippen as actually had his career. Lebron is still in his, and not even close to being done with his career.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 15 2007, 07:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>They also got some new guys that season, and I feel that one season was a bit of a fluke. Why? Because the team was 34-32 in the 2nd season without MJ before MJ returned (when they went on a run at end of season and got higher seeding).</div>I don't think that one season was a bit of a fluke at all. That following season when they was struggling, they lost Horace Grant which left Pippen having to do everything for more than half of the season. He had to guard the opposing teams best player, be the leading rebounder, be the playmaker and set up man, while also being the best scorer on the team. Jordan himself had problems doing that earlier in his career, and had he been put in that same situation he would have had problems also.They really didn't get that many new guys that contributed alot, Steve Kerr, and Toni Kukoc came in, but Kukoc was a rookie and inconsistent, and Kerr was just primarily a jump shooter that did little else. Most of the rest of the team was the same as the year before when Jordan was there. Without Jordan, Pippen lead them to a 55 win season, while being the playmaker and scorer of the team. He got them to the second round, and that team took the New York Knicks to 7 games. That same Knicks team ended up going to the finals and playing the Rockets to a tough 7 game series. That is impressive, and still leads me to believe that he was as big a driving force behind those teams as what Jordan was.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (PrimeTime @ Jul 16 2007, 11:35 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Pippen also has more championships then Bird despite a poorer cast. If lebron isnt better then pip, then neither is bird. Pip had just as much brains as Bird. I actually believe bird is better but rednecks logic is flawed.</div>but does that make Robert Horry the 2nd best player ever with 7 rings to Russell's 11?and Pippen was part of the cast, not the leader.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 16 2007, 01:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>but does that make Robert Horry the 2nd best player ever with 7 rings to Russell's 11?and Pippen was part of the cast, not the leader.</div>He was much a driving force behind that team as what Michael Jordan was. While he was a part, his part was as big as anyone elses on that team.
right, just like robert Parrish and Kevin McHale.. but there was only one person on those Bulls and Celtics teams that got the ball in crunch time and made things happen. Only one leader on each team and everyone knows that much.
Lebrons advantages to pippen is that-more explosive-led a team to the finals single-handedly-better passer-sees the court better-better rebounder-more versatile on offense-better jumper-better three point shooter-better at penetratingI love pip to death but he is not better then Lebron James, especially by the time Lebron James retires.Pips Advantages to lebron-Better Man Defender-Better Help Defender-Better leadership skills-Moves better without the ball in his handsoverall, you have to go with lebron. Pippen would not have lead that cavs team past detroit with the cast they have. He was a great player but the key thing he lacked was the ability to single-handedly take over a game.
Pippen very well could have lead the Cavs past the Pistons, and with the exception of game five Lebron really didn't lead his team. for one of the few times this season the Cavs as a team showed up.Pippen was a much better rebounder than Lebron, I don't know why you think Lebron is the better rebounder. Pippen's numbers are a lot higher, despite playing beside Horace Grant and Dennis Rodman. Their assists numbers are similar, Lebrons are a bit higher tho, but thats not to say Pippen wasn't a good passer. Offensively Pippen never had to score as much as James because Pippen had Jordan, Grant, Armstrong, Kukoc and other players. You even admit that Pippen was the better defender than James. plus Pippen was a lot better at the intangables than Lebron is.I'm not saying that in 5 years Pippen will still be better, but as of right now he is a better player.
I didn't know we was talking about what some of them will do, I thought we was talking about what would happen if all of the small forwards careers ended today. As for the future, we can't be certain that Lebron James won't get hurt, so right now it has to be Pippen. Pippen was one of the driving forces behind 6 championship teams. As for leading a team by himself to the finals, when he was the sole leader of the Bulls, he was able to lead them to 55 wins. He was also able to get that team to play the Knicks who were championship caliber, to a tough seven game series. Minus the Spurs, that team was tougher than any team the Cavaliers had to face this season. He got them to the finals, in one of the easiest path's possible, against much inferior competition than Scottie Pippen did.That being said, I absolutely do think he could have gotten them to the finals, because like Redneck said, he wasn't the only one playing. Some game or another, besides game 5, someone stepped up and helped out Lebron James alot. Sure Lebron Looked good, but he really didn't go off in any games except game 5. In game one of that series, Pippen would have even been able to score more than the 10 points that Lebron James did, and could have scored more than the 19 that Lebron scored in game 2, and he could have easily equaled the 25 points that Lebron scored in game 4. So I really think he could have lead that team past that Pistons team.As for that evaluation that you made, I don't know if your 100 percent right on that stuff. Especially rebounding, Scottie Pippen was a better rebounder than Lebron James. He was also just as good at passing as Lebron James is. He was able to see the whole court, and pass to any point on the floor. There is a reason why he was the facilitator of the offense, and the one that controlled the passing for those Bulls teams. His court vision, and passing ability drove that team to be as good as what they was. So I think he is atleast even in passing with Lebron James, and a better rebounder than Lebron James is.
