- Magic Johnson - Oscar Robertson - Jason Kidd - Isiah Thomas - John Stockton I don't care about the order, I hate bickering about what HOF-type player is better than this one, it's a waste of time in my opinion. But thats my top 5.
1. Magic Johnson2. Oscar Robertson3. John Stockton4. Isiah Thomas5. Jason KiddThis was not a very hard list to make. There are a group of 5-9 PG's in NBA history who's playmaking ability really stands out. You have this list of Magic, who is pretty much the consensus best PG of all time. Oscar Robertson and John Stockton, both of which were amazing playing alongside a great forward. (Stockton had Malone, Robertson had Abdul-Jabbar/Lucas) Isiah Thomas, alongside being one of the greatest PG's he was one of the greatest leaders. Last, Jason Kidd, who alongside his three point shooting, tough defense, and rebounding would still be able to make everyone on the court better.After these guys you get Steve Nash, Rod Strickland, Bob Cousy, Pete Maravich, and others. However, I thought it was pretty easy to select the top 5 out of these guys.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 17 2007, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1. Magic Johnson2. Oscar Robertson3. Isiah Thomas4. John Stockton5. Jason KiddI put Kidd over Cousy because he is/was a better playmaker than Cousy ever was (Cousy never averaged more than 9.5APG, which is pretty amazing considering the team averaged 115-120 points per game), better rebounder, and while Cousy always scored more, he shot over 39% only once in his career (and never above 40%). Russell also won 5 rings after Cousy originally retired, so his titles don't mean as much to me as Kidd getting mediocre teams to the Finals.</div>In Cousy's days assists only counted when the person you passed to shot the ball when they were wide open or off either a screen or a pick and roll. Assists weren't credited for passing to somebody, them driving and getting a layup.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 17 2007, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you do realise that it's commonly acknowledged that it's much easier to be awarded an assist in today's game than it was back in the 50's and 60's right?I mean it's only been mentioned by any journalist or ex-player whenever the talk about the greatest PG's of all time is mentioned.So Cousy's numbers are lower, but it's not like he didn't run that C's team like a well oiled machine.</div>Please bring proof instead of just making statements. As far as I am concerned, even if it was harder to get assists awarded back then, the 20PPG difference between the 2001-2003 Nets and those Celtic teams should make up for any disparency.He certainly did run the Celtics team extremely well, and his rings prove that. But as they showed with 5 rings after he retired, he was not exactly needed. Nets were a lottery team without Kidd.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 17 2007, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>you can look it up yourself.I'm not the ignorant one.</div>If you're gonna say something with such confidence without proof, you hold non credibility whatsoever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 17 2007, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>If you're gonna say something with such confidence without proof, you hold non credibility whatsoever.</div>blah blah blah, I don't care, you frequently post your thoughts based on opinion (jordan vs kobe)so it's just the case of the pot calling the kettle black.here go read this at least.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?pa...testPointGuardsnotice how a pannel of 13 media and ex-players/coaches voted on this topic and how cousy is 19 points ahead of kidd.also not that Cousy has the most titles of ANY pg who ever played and is only 1 of 4 who have won an MVP.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CelticFan @ Jul 17 2007, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>blah blah blah, I don't care, you frequently post your thoughts based on opinion (jordan vs kobe)so it's just the case of the pot calling the kettle black.</div>I posted facts in the Jordan thread (things like MJ and Kobe scoring same amount of PPG, but despite MJ shooting much better % he took same amount of FGA, quotes from Jordan and PJ's mouth, etc...). I posted why I put Kidd over Cousy, used facts. 99.9% of the debates I am in I am actually criticized for using TOO MANY facts. <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>here go read this at least.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?pa...testPointGuardsnotice how a pannel of 13 media and ex-players/coaches voted on this topic and how cousy is 19 points ahead of kidd.also not that Cousy has the most titles of ANY pg who ever played and is only 1 of 4 who have won an MVP.</div>Ok, he is 13 points ahead of Kidd....how does that prove he is a better passer or Cousy's stats are hindered by the era he is in (or whatever the hell your claim was)?Cousy was so high up LARGELY because of his accomplishements, which were a direct result of playing on the greatest dynasty in basketball history (who won 5 more titles after Cousy left). His MVP titles was in a league with not even 1/3 as many teams/players as there are today (Kidd was also robbed in 01-02, but whatever). He never got team to Finals without Russell, either.Cousy was a hell of a player....pretty good scorer, very good playmaker, one of the best defensive PG's of all time, and did play the point of championship teams. I just feel that Kidd is a better ballhandler, playmaker, rebounder and overall player than Cousy was. Kidd is also bigger than Cousy was, which is very important in posting up smaller guards. I'd rather have Kidd as my PG than Cousy.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='417394' date='Jul 17 2007, 10:27 PM']I posted facts in the Jordan thread (things like MJ and Kobe scoring same amount of PPG, but despite MJ shooting much better % he took same amount of FGA, quotes from Jordan and PJ's mouth, etc...). I posted why I put Kidd over Cousy, used facts. 99.9% of the debates I am in I am actually criticized for using TOO MANY facts.[/quote]you used faulty facts is my point.[quote name='Nitro1118' post='417394' date='Jul 17 2007, 10:27 PM']Ok, he is 13 points ahead of Kidd....how does that prove he is a better passer or Cousy's stats are hindered by the era he is in (or whatever the hell your claim was)?[/quote]well I've read it several times and not just yesterday. I'm not exactly going all over the internet to find an article or two that claims this just for you. You can post on here and ask away.I'm sure you'll find others who have read or heard this. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='417394' date='Jul 17 2007, 10:27 PM']Cousy was so high up LARGELY because of his accomplishements, which were a direct result of playing on the greatest dynasty in basketball history (who won 5 more titles after Cousy left). His MVP titles was in a league with not even 1/3 as many teams/players as there are today (Kidd was also robbed in 01-02, but whatever). He never got team to Finals without Russell, either.[/quote]so there was less weak teams in the league because it was so small and you were up against the best of the best all the time and there were other great players in the league and he still won MVP. As for titles, there isn't a single player who's won a title by themselves, they've always had help. Cousy was no different.Imagine how talented the teams in this league would be without Orlando, Miami, Memphis, Minnesota, Toronto, Charlotte and New Orleans. (aka the expansion teams)There'd be several teams with 2-3 HOF'ers on them. Kinda like how it was back then. [quote name='Nitro1118' post='417394' date='Jul 17 2007, 10:27 PM']Cousy was a hell of a player....pretty good scorer, very good playmaker, one of the best defensive PG's of all time, and did play the point of championship teams. I just feel that Kidd is a better ballhandler, playmaker, rebounder and overall player than Cousy was. Kidd is also bigger than Cousy was, which is very important in posting up smaller guards. I'd rather have Kidd as my PG than Cousy.[/quote]nice facts...again you're going on you opinion, yet you never saw Cousy play.I never saw him play myself, but have read and heard enough about the player to realise his accomplishments and importance to the history of the game.
[quote name='CelticFan' post='417506' date='Jul 17 2007, 10:33 PM']you used faulty facts is my point.[/quote]whoa, first you say I don't post facts, now you are saying they are faulty? If you are gonna make a claim that strong, back it up instead of making stupid statements. If you couldn't bring up proof in the first place, don't bring it up. There are over 33% more teams and player now, thus putting even more pressure on single stars to lead their respective teams to the promise land, and way more talent to make your case for as MVP. Kidd had very, very little help with the NJ teams he brought to the Finals, bringing them from lottery bound to NBA Finals team in 1 year. When Cousy retired, the Celtics won 5 more rings, thus showing how important Cousy really was to those Celtic teams. Not saying Cousy didn't deserve the MVP awards he got, but it's totally different circumstances than today's NBA (and again, kidd was robbed of an MVP award). I have seen Cousy play a few times on ESPN Classic (Russell-Wilt games are aired pretty much weekly).Granted, I have seen not 1/1000 as much as I have seen Kidd, but like you, have read more than enough about him to form an opinion. Kidd has the best overall PG skills of this era, and the numbers pretty much show him being the better playmaker. Watch video of him, listen to Rick Barry's interview on ballhandlers then and now (and remember, Barry came into the league about 20 years later than Cousy), and hell read your article to see the difference between ballhandlers then and now. Kidd has had 10 straight seasons of averaging more than 6RPG, 5 of them over 7RPG, one of them over 8RPG...Cousy had only 5 seasons of 6RPG or more, and never over 7RPG. And considering Cousy was in an era that scored 20 more PPG than now and teams shot worse, there was a lot more oppertunity to rebound. Enough stats for you?His importance doesn't mean that he was a better player than Kidd or any other player on that list.
