<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Nitro1118 @ Jul 16 2007, 02:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>To everyone who says this trade is bad for Minnesota...How many teams who want KG are gonna give up much better talent than what Cleveland would be giving up? GS would be giving them very little talent, not of it proven, and the potential isn't very high. The LA/Minnesota/Boston 3 way deal would be giving them 2 throw aways and 2 players far from polished or proven, and I believe nearing the ends of their rookie contracts, potentially leaving them with nothing to rebuild on.With the Cleveland trade, they are getting 2 young players and a proven 20PPG scorer. If they want to go totally through with rebuilding, Hughes would be nice trade bait to get even more young talent. Either way, Minnesota can't afford to be extremely picky. They won't have a ton of buyers, and with KG being able to opt out next year, they need something in return instead of letting him walk.</div>But the thing is, why does Cleveland want Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden? Neither are expiring and both are in their primes right now. Both will expire in 2 seasons which doesn't give the Timberwolves the oppurtunity to explore the stellar '08 free agent class.Larry Hughes is no longer the solid 20 PPG scorer he was on Washington. Since he's been on Cleveland he's played 106 out of a possible 164 games and in the games he has played, has averaged 15 PPG, and hasn't been able to shoot the ball well. It's clear that Hughes does not fit in Mike Brown's half court offense and flourishes in Eddie Jordan's up-tempo style. As I said before, Minnesota will likely request Daniel Gibson and another draft pick to be the trade kicker. At this point Danny Ferry will refuse to give up Gibson which creates a snag in the potential trade ending the discussion. It's happened with every single team McHale has had KG talks with.Golden State would be giving them young studs with tons of potential. Brandan Wright and Monta Ellis or both guys that would likely stay with Minnesota through the rebuilding process.Also at the end of a rookie contract the team gets the 'Arenas Rule' on the player which allows them to re-sign any rookie pretty easily.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (redneck @ Jul 15 2007, 08:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>No way in Hell would the Wolves do that. those three guys are junk, and any draft picks would be absolutly worthless.</div>Basically sums up my feelings. Even if a 1st rounder is added.
[quote name='GArenas' post='414621' date='Jul 16 2007, 01:34 AM']But the thing is, why does Cleveland want Larry Hughes and Drew Gooden? Neither are expiring and both are in their primes right now. Both will expire in 2 seasons which doesn't give the Timberwolves the oppurtunity to explore the stellar '08 free agent class.[/quote]As I said, they will be tradable. A lot of teams could use a very, very solid and proven PF like Drew Gooden, and Larry Hughes could be a valuable piece to many teams. He's also taking 5 less FGA per game since joining Cleveland, and without looking at the stats, I'm sure a few less FTA. He still has the ability to score 20PPG. He also showed this year in the 2nd half of the season he can play PG if need be. If it meant KG, I don't think they would mind giving up Gibson if it meant KG. Gibson got hot at the right time of the year, and he is worth giving up if it means 22/13/4/2. Wright hasn't played a minute in an NBA game, and is extremely unpolished (reminds me a lot of Marvin Williams). Monta Ellis has only had 1 good season, and it was in the kind of offense almost anyone succeeds in. IMO neither guy will be stars in this league.
The Cavaliers have nothing to offer minnesota for KG period. Even if they traded all their starters besides lebron+ both 1st rounders I doubt minnesota bites on it. they already have enough sgs there that they dont need hughes. Minnesota should bite on that rumored 3 way deal including LA and BOS. In that deal, everyone gets good players.
This deal just isn't happening. Cleveland can't offer Minnesota what it needs (young players, expiring contracts, draft picks). There have to be better offers than this for a player as talented and proven as KG.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='414648' date='Jul 16 2007, 02:53 AM']As I said, they will be tradable. A lot of teams could use a very, very solid and proven PF like Drew Gooden, and Larry Hughes could be a valuable piece to many teams.[/quote]Why make a deal for two guys who you're just going to trade away. I'm sure the Timberwolves will at least want a player who will stick with the franchise through the rebuilding years. Also, Cleveland was shopping Larry Hughes this off-season according to ESPN insider but couldn't find any takers due to his ridiculous contract. What makes you believe that the Timberwolves will have any better luck. If the T-wolves get Hughes it's likely they will just end up buying him out. Do you really want a guy shooting 40% from the field to score 20 PPG for you? Alot of all-star's shoot around 42% but that's because they're focused on by the defense and double-teamed. This is not the case for Larry Hughes, he's just not a good scorer.Also as a PG he was never a great distributor. He averages 2 turnovers a game and doesn't have the same courtvision as an average PG. Putting Hughes at the 1 was just their desperate attempt to have some sort of a decent distributor. I thought they should have just kept Hughes at the 2 and stuck Gibson at the 1. You would think that but remember that Los Angeles wouldn't give up Bynum and Golden State wouldn't give up Biedrens. Despite both being slightly more proven than Gibson they're still worthy deal-breakers that their respective teams weren't willing to give up. I think it's very possible that history repeats itself here. But both are young and both will stick around a rebuilding process. Monta Ellis has only played 2 season, one right out of highschool. Also, if you say that Ellis is succesful only because of the run-and-gun offense then you could also be saying that Nash, Marion, and Amare are all only succesful because of their offense. Ellis will be able to score with his athletecism no matter where he goes but I agree that it is likely that he was helped out by the Don Nelson game plan.As for Brandan Wright, he's a rookie who has potential. Playing alonside lots of young talent could help him to adapt to the NBA slowly. What Minnesota cares about is Wright's potential and age not how raw he is right now.I believe that the Warriors were also offering expiring contracts something that is <u>very</u> valuable to a rebuilding team.
The Timberwolves have an interesting young team. People seem to forget that along with Foye, Brewer, they have McCants who will be healthy. I don't see KG going anywhere. It's kind of funny how you guys take one stupid rumor and run with it and post about it for hours.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (BrewCityBuck @ Jul 16 2007, 10:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The Timberwolves have an interesting young team. People seem to forget that along with Foye, Brewer, they have McCants who will be healthy. I don't see KG going anywhere.</div>Good point. Last year, defense was the main problem for the T'Wolves. Adding Brewer, one of the best defenders in the Nation last year, will upgrade their defense some. Then McCants is finally healed from his injury, and should recieve more minutes this year to contribute more scoring for the team. Foye has a year under his belt to build on. If he can work on becoming a better playmaker, it could really help out the T'Wolves. This team can definatly challenge for the Playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrizzFanTaylor @ Jul 16 2007, 11:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Good point. Last year, defense was the main problem for the T'Wolves. Adding Brewer, one of the best defenders in the Nation last year, will upgrade their defense some. Then McCants is finally healed from his injury, and should recieve more minutes this year to contribute more scoring for the team. Foye has a year under his belt to build on. If he can work on becoming a better playmaker, it could really help out the T'Wolves. This team can definatly challenge for the Playoffs.</div>As I said to someone before, why does KG want to just challenge for the playoffs? He's nearing the twilight of his career and has got only 2-4 more years of production in him. I'm sure Garnett wants to play for a championship right now not a young team struggling to make the playoffs.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GArenas @ Jul 16 2007, 10:18 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>As I said to someone before, why does KG want to just challenge for the playoffs? He's nearing the twilight of his career and has got only 2-4 more years of production in him. I'm sure Garnett wants to play for a championship right now not a young team struggling to make the playoffs.</div>I know Garnett would probably rather leave, but the point I'm making is, why would Minnesota be so fast to trade him when they know they have the possibility to make the playoffs? If Garnett wants to be traded, I think it's time to publicly come out and say it to force Minnesota to make a move.
The real question is: Why would Minnesota do this? They'd get a nothing but average power forward, an inconsistent scorer, and a player with limited talent. No young studs, no fellow stars, no reliable scorers...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GrizzFanTaylor @ Jul 16 2007, 11:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I know Garnett would probably rather leave, but the point I'm making is, why would Minnesota be so fast to trade him when they know they have the possibility to make the playoffs? If Garnett wants to be traded, I think it's time to publicly come out and say it to force Minnesota to make a move.</div>Because the Timberwolves are built right now to win in a couple seasons. Getting to the first round of the NBA playoffs is not an accomplishment when you could trade away Garnett and potentially be contendors in a couple seasons. Also, Kevin Garnett is a free agent next season and it's likely he won't sign back with the Timberwolves. McHale has been shopping him to try to get young players in return rather than just letting Garnett walk next season.Now if I'm Minnesota I would never accept this trade but I would continue to shop Garnett until I get an attractive offer.
Cleveland does not have the talent to make a KG deal work. Minnesota isn't going to bend over and give you KG for at best 3 role players.
[quote name='GArenas' post='414831' date='Jul 16 2007, 09:41 AM']Why make a deal for two guys who you're just going to trade away. I'm sure the Timberwolves will at least want a player who will stick with the franchise through the rebuilding years. Also, Cleveland was shopping Larry Hughes this off-season according to ESPN insider but couldn't find any takers due to his ridiculous contract. What makes you believe that the Timberwolves will have any better luck. If the T-wolves get Hughes it's likely they will just end up buying him out.[/quote]They will probably be able to get a lot more young talent and expiring contracts with multiple trading chips than one massive trading chip that will only net them one or 2 young players and a few throw aways.Ok, let's say they buy him out...then they'll be able to make a move in the '08 FA class. Hughes is a fine scorer. He doesn't shoot a great %, but can get things done inside and out. And most importantly, he can create for himself, something extremely important.Hughes played the point on a team that went to the Finals. He can set up the offense, handle the ball well, and get everything set up. That is very valuable as it takes major pressure off team's best perimeter player. He is not the kind of playmaker who you can use the whole season at the point, but he can take care of that position much of the time, if PG is hurt/on bench, etc... Unlike LA or GS, Cleveland has a much better chance at a ring if they net KG. Gibson doesn't have the potential Bynum does, so I expect him to be much more easy to pry away from Cleveland. Nash is a guy who actually can RUN that kind of team, Marion was proven before D'Antoni and Nash, and Amare is arguably the best center in the league who averaged 25PPG in 2nd half of 03-04 and 30PPG without Nash this year. Ellis is totally different, and will only ever be an average role player in this league IMO. That's the thought process that the Hawks believed...unfortunately those "potential" guys never panned out and they are left with a young team that is not proven and doesn't have a ton of valuable trading chips. I personally believe that having Hughes and Gooden as trading chips is more valuable than expiring contracts, but that's just me. It's riskier, but IMO could pan out to be much more worthwhile.
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='415081' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:00 PM']They will probably be able to get a lot more young talent and expiring contracts with multiple trading chips than one massive trading chip that will only net them one or 2 young players and a few throw aways.Ok, let's say they buy him out...then they'll be able to make a move in the '08 FA class.[/quote]Buying out Larry Hughes is pretty much the only reason to trade for him. No team will give up proven young talent for an injury-prone and expensive combo guard. He is very inconsistent and isn't the best shooter. He's a decent perimiter defender but his offense has gotten much weaker since he was on Washington. After all the injuries in 05-06, his slashing ability has weakened and his jumper has not gotten any better.Larry Hughes hardly helped the Cavaliers when they got to the NBA finals last season. After a stellar first round his contribution severly dropped until the finals when he got injured. Through the playoffs Hughes would average 2.4 assists and 2.3 turnovers. That's definetely not the kind of contribution you want from a PG. Sure he can run the 1 at certain times through the game but he doesn't have the playmaking ability or court-vision to start like Mike Brown wanted him to. If the Lakers teamed up KG with Kobe and added a few nice offensive role-players to the squad they could contend for a championship. Also, if KG goes to Cleveland the Cavs are left without a PG. This would be a situation they would need to address instantly because Daniel Gibson won't be able to play 30+ minutes a night at this point in his career. Just adding Kevin Garnett won't instantly mean championship, without Larry Hughes the backcourt will be very weak. Ellis has only been in the league 2 seasons and improved quite alot between each. You say that Ellis will only flourish in the up-tempo style of play but you've never seen him play in any other system. Mike Montgomory's playing style was slower than Don Nelson's, and in Montgomory's Ellis did not contribute as much but remember that 05-06 was his rookie season. I don't think you can judge how capable of a scorer Ellis is until we see him for at least 2-3 more years. You overrate Larry Hughes's trade value. As I said above he's not attractive enough to get proven young talent just for him. Only reason to get Hughes is to buy him out.
[quote name='GArenas' post='415175' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:37 PM']Buying out Larry Hughes is pretty much the only reason to trade for him. No team will give up proven young talent for an injury-prone and expensive combo guard.[/quote]Depends on the team. As you saw with Bobcats trading Brandan Wright for Jrich, some teams are filled with young talent and need a Larry Hughes to push them in right direction. He was playing in a horrible offense and still hasn;t quite fit in due to Brown changing his role all over the place. He can still give you around 20PPG on over 40% shooting. Without Hughes taking ballhandling pressure off Bron, Bron would have had a much harder time scoring. As you saw in Finals without Hughes, Bron was forced to do all of the playmaking, which led to his insane TO numbers.And while Hughes didn't necassarily play well, teams still have to respect his game. He also led team to I believe a 4-0 record with LeBron out (which was significant as it landed them the #2 seed, playing Washington instead of Miami in first round, and avoiding Detroit until the ECF). But he DID start and was a BIG reason for why the Cavs mad eit to the Finals. It's no coincidence that when they switched him to PG, the team went on a roll. As you saw with Ai/Melo, 2 star players on same team doens't mean championship. Shaq and Kobe also had difficulties and needed an awesome supporting cast to get it done. Cavs already have some nice role players and it's a much weaker conference with very few great big men. Lakers would have to get through probably 3 teams in the West that are better than anything the East offers. As the Heat showed though, you can get lucky for one round. I don't care about the production, it's more his style of play. I don't think he will ever be more than an average role player. I still think Gooden and Hughes can get them more talent and/or expiring contracts than just KG. They'd also have Sasha as well.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Ok, let's say they buy him out...then they'll be able to make a move in the '08 FA class.</div>Unless Hughes decides to take the hit for a buyout, Wolves would be responsible for his contract and won't free up cap. So I don't see how they can hit free agency with buyouts. I'm not aware of Wolves cap situation but I believe their over.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Larry Hughes hardly helped the Cavaliers when they got to the NBA finals last season. After a stellar first round his contribution severly dropped until the finals when he got injured. Through the playoffs Hughes would average 2.4 assists and 2.3 turnovers. That's definetely not the kind of contribution you want from a PG.</div><span style="font-family:Tahoma">Yes... Hughes did nothing.. But slow down the Pistons' best player..Oh yeah, on 1 freaking foot!</span>
[quote name='Nitro1118' post='415216' date='Jul 16 2007, 05:04 PM']Depends on the team. As you saw with Bobcats trading Brandan Wright for Jrich, some teams are filled with young talent and need a Larry Hughes to push them in right direction.[/quote]The Timberwolves don't have enough talent right now to need a guy like Larry Hughes or Jrich to push them 'over the top'. In fact that Timberwolves should go in the opposite direction for 06-07. As I said he doesn't fit in, he's best when he plays on an up-tempo team that likes to push the ball. Right now Larry Hughes is contributing 15 PPG on 40% shooting. Team's do not double team Larry Hughes, 15 PPG is all he's going to be able to contribute shooting a decent percentage. Hughes was hardly contributing in the ECF when LeBron lit up the Pistons wether he was scoring or creating for his teammates. The Spurs defense completely shut down LeBron, they had a much better defensive scheme than Detroit's 'LeBron rules'. When did he do this? I don't remember LeBron being out for 4 straight games this season. I know Hughes led them to a win against the Celtics late in the season with LeBron out 1 game but they were facing the tanking Celtics. Other then that, the Cavs had LeBron playing through the entire late season. As I said before, Hughes hardly contributed in the playoffs. He wasn't able to be the play maker that Mike Brown wanted him to be. As for the late season push, the Cavs and Bulls were in a fight for the 2nd seed both were coming out every night knowing that if they lost it could cost them amazing playoff positioning. Not to mention that the Cavs didn't have alot of tough late season opponents. Sure the change may have helped but I doubt it was far from the sole reason they were on fire through the conference finals. As we saw in June, coming out of the East doesn't mean you're contending for an NBA championship. The Heat won because Dallas collapsed after the late game 3 comeback by the Heat. Now after what happened against the Warriors, the Mavericks have become notorious for falling apart in a series. The Cavaliers shouldn't expect another powerhouse Western Conference team like the Spurs or Suns to fall apart.You're saying that duo's dont necceseraly mean a championship and you need an amazing supporting cast as well. The Cavaliers do not have a solid supporting cast. Illgauskus, Gibson, Varejao, Pavlovic, and Marshall are not a strong enough supporting cast to win an NBA championship. Well his style of play has similarities to Gilbert Arenas. He uses his athletecism to break down the defender and attack the basket. At this point in his career Ellis does not have the same three point jumper or improved playmaking ability that Arenas does and he's developing at a slower rate but you can see the similarities. I don't see him getting close to scoring 30 a game like Arenas does or even being close to as good, but I also don't see him being just an average role-player. You know my stance on this.
[quote name='GArenas' post='415296' date='Jul 16 2007, 04:42 PM']The Timberwolves don't have enough talent right now to need a guy like Larry Hughes or Jrich to push them 'over the top'. In fact that Timberwolves should go in the opposite direction for 06-07.[/quote]I know they don't have the talent for Hughes to work with the T-Wolves, but other teams have young talent to trade away that could use a guy like Hughes. He can score more PPG and stay over 40%. He isn't a go-to scorer, but a fine 2nd or 3rd option. And as guys like RJ and Ginobli have shown, they are very valuable to have. Once again, you fail to look at the impact of bringing up the ball down the floor and running the offense has. It takes a TON of pressure off LeBron, allows him to play off ball, get in post position, etc... When he has to be the main playmaker as well as scorer, his shooting %'s drop and his TO's rise. Hughes may not be the best playmaker in the world or can start as PG on any team, but a big key to the Cavs' success was switching him to the point. When did I say he was out 4 straight games, or that it was at the end of the season? BTW, they were 3-1 when Bron was out, Hughes averaging 22PPG in those games. http://www.nba.com/playerfile/larry_hughes...game_stats.htmlHughes' PPG, APG and RPG all rised in the run they made in the last 1.5-2 months of the season. Putting him in a role he was more comfortable with was huge in the Cavs success, whether it translated into the stats or not. Of course it wasn't the only reason, but it was the biggest change they made mid-season that ignited the run. It's not a matter of falling apart...it's getting hot at the right time and playing a great series. The Mavs fell apart, but if D-Wade didn't score 40PPG in last 4 games they wouldn't have lost. It's much easier to get hot at the right time and beat one of the top WC teams than beating 3 in a row. Again, major difference between Eastern Conference teams and Western Conference teams. In the East, the best big men KG would really have to face is an out of his prime Shaq, maybe Randolph, Chris Bosh or Dwight Howard. In the West, you have Yao, Amare, Duncan, Brand, Boozer, Okur, Dirk, etc... In other words, in the East KG will easily dominate down low, whereas the West is absolutely stacked with amazing PF's. With Bowen, AK-47, Raja Bell, Shane Battier and other great perimeter defenders out West, Kobe will have a harder time than LeBron will. The West has much better, deeper and talented teams, and if lakers get KG, they'd have even less role players to work with than the Cavs (Fisher, Farmar, Kwame, Walton, etc..). He doesn't have the scoring mentality or creativity to be like GA. Again, it's just my opinion, but I don't think he will ever be more than an average role player for most teams in the league.
