Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MaRdYC26 @ Jul 20 2007, 09:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>sboyd, no matter if u like barry or not you cant just throw out the fact that 1. williams was serving in the army for FIVE seasons 2. mantle DID play 18 years, yes, but not AS many games a normal person that played 18 years did - and many of those years he could barely run...the dude was a warrior. Bonds has had an incredibly strong body from 35+ because he took steroids...it lets you work out longer and harder without nearly as much fatigue, something guys like mantle (bad knees) and williams would've never been able to do.</div>Fixed.
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 19 2007, 11:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Bonds missed all but 14 games in 2005, and not b/c of a "pulled hammy" He had knee surgery and missed almost the whole season...It's unfortunate that Ted Williams missed so many years at war, but there's no way he'd be anywhere near Bonds in HRs, SB's, SLG%, Runs, or MVPs.</div>1. Williams was ahead of Bonds in SLG%. He's 2nd all-time behind Ruth. 2. Runs and stolen bases have nothing to do with hitting. You could say to an extent that MVP's do not either.
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Justice @ Jul 20 2007, 01:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>plagiarism :no1:</div>Hmm?
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 03:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oops, I guess I misread. It doesn't even matter if you take away runs, SBs, and RBI's because Bonds will still win.[...]And Runs, SB's and RBI's are all major categories- I don't think it's fair just to ignore those stats when RBI's and runs especially are a sign of a great hitter...</div>The problem with you saying he "will still win" is that it's a poorly defined system. You arbitrarily decided that gold gloves (which apparently didn't even exist in that time) and MVP awards actually have anything to do with the original point, which was that Bonds is the better hitter (hint: he's not).Stolen bases have absolutely nothing to do with hitting. I think we can all agree on that. RBI's depend on your teammates getting on base and into scoring position. Runs also depend on your teammates. They have to hit you in, or you have to steal home, which I'm sure you know is ridiculously difficult. I'd say that runs have almost nothing to do with hitting except for those you attain off your own homeruns, and RBI's only have some to do with hitting.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 03:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Maddux wouldn't even be worthy enough to be in the same room as a player like Cy Young.Edit: I don't even think Maddux is the best active pitcher right now. No one has anywhere near the control that Maddux does, but I think overall Clemens is a better pitcher.</div>I'm not going to say that either of the other two pitchers you listed are garbage, but Maddux has better ERA than both of them. Clemens only beats him in wins-losses, which really has nothing to do with how great of a pitcher you are (please argue otherwise, please. I'd love to see that). Cy Young was a great pitcher as well, but has a lower ERA. I'd probably give him the bump because he has an insane number of innings, but I think it's impressive that Maddux has such a low ERA in a huge homerun era. Clemens did a great job with that as well (I kinda think he's on 'roids too, though).
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 05:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I stand by the fact that Bonds is a better all-around player and better power hitter. Bonds doesn't hit for a high average like Ted Williams did, but he has produced better numbers despite being on bad teams with average teammates.</div>So it goes from better hitter than Williams, to better player than Williams, to better power hitter than Williams. I'm not discussing fielding, or stolen bases, or world series rings. You said Bonds is a better hitter than Ted Williams, and I disagreed. I never mentioned anything else. This debate is about HITTING.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I hope you're not seriously saying that RBI's and runs are not part of hitting. How do you think Bonds got on base to even be able to steal those bases? He wasn't walked 514 times, so he had to get hits to get on base. If you want to argue about runs being all about your teammates, let's compare Ted Williams notable teammates (Jimmie Foxx (HOF), Doc Cramer, Joe Cronin, Lou Finney, Dom DiMaggio (7-Time All-Star), Bobby Doer, Bob Johnson, Johnny Pesky, Billy Goodman, Frank Malzone, and Pete Runnels) not to mention he was on one of the most dominant teams at that time. Here are some of Barry Bonds' best teammates: (Bobby Bonilla, Andy van Slyke, Matt Williams, Robby Thompson, Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks, J.T. Snow, Moises Alou & Omar Vizquel) There's a reason Bonds doesn't have a World Series ring, and the team around him has a lot to do with it. If you want to compare Jimmie Foxx & Jeff Kent (two best teammates of Bonds & Williams IMO) than be my guest. Williams was on dominant teams throughout his career yet Bonds has the better runs, RBI and SB numbers.</div>RBI's aren't the best tool to rate hitters by. But if you want to, Williams only had 133 less RBI than Bonds, in less at-bats. 133 could be done in one season.Stealing a base has nothing, zilch, zero, nada to do with hitting. Neither do runs. All of that takes place when the bat is out of your hands.Bond's team was just as dominant as Ted's. Both teams never won a World Series, and they both made it to the WS once.
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I stand by the fact that Bonds is a better all-around player and better power hitter. Bonds doesn't hit for a high average like Ted Williams did, but he has produced better numbers despite being on bad teams with average teammates.</div>Your argument is that he has better numbers. While he has better cumulative numbers in HR's and SB's, nothing else is that better considering how many more at bats he has. Neither of those categories are team based, so your point about being on bad teams is moot.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I hope you're not seriously saying that RBI's and runs are not part of hitting. How do you think Bonds got on base to even be able to steal those bases? He wasn't walked 514 times, so he had to get hits to get on base. If you want to argue about runs being all about your teammates, let's compare Ted Williams notable teammates (Jimmie Foxx (HOF), Doc Cramer, Joe Cronin, Lou Finney, Dom DiMaggio (7-Time All-Star), Bobby Doer, Bob Johnson, Johnny Pesky, Billy Goodman, Frank Malzone, and Pete Runnels) not to mention he was on one of the most dominant teams at that time. Here are some of Barry Bonds' best teammates: (Bobby Bonilla, Andy van Slyke, Matt Williams, Robby Thompson, Jeff Kent, Ellis Burks, J.T. Snow, Moises Alou & Omar Vizquel) There's a reason Bonds doesn't have a World Series ring, and the team around him has a lot to do with it. If you want to compare Jimmie Foxx & Jeff Kent (two best teammates of Bonds & Williams IMO) than be my guest. Williams was on dominant teams throughout his career yet Bonds has the better runs, RBI and SB numbers.</div>Bonds doesn't have better RBI numbers when you consider at bats. That's obvious and you know it. Runs is arguable, but it is not an aspect of hitting. I didn't say RBI's are not a part of hitting. I would love to see it quoted where I said that. I said that RBI's entirely depend on your teammates, unless you hit a homerun. It could be used to see who is better in the clutch, but there are better stats for that (if you can find them).There are players that can score after getting a single, and others that cannot after getting a double. The reason is because some are better baserunners than others. Baserunning requires hitting or getting a walk as a prerequisite, but it is not a part of hitting. I see what you're saying, but I disagree entirely as it requires no batting skills to get a stolen base. A player can get a stolen base or a run without even getting a hit. Stolen bases and runs also require your coach to make the call. Williams had comparable triples in 2000 less at bats, so I'd think the guy can run to some extent.This is exactly what CB32 always says. Stats don't tell the whole story, especially when you look at it from such an obstinate point of view. Barry Bonds is your favorite player, so obviously he's the best hitter. You just have to look at it from a completely skewed point of view!<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 04:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I'm not going to argue Maddux vs. Cy Young. There's a pitching award named after the guy for God's sake and he has 511 career wins and a 2.63 ERA vs. Maddux's 340 career wins and 3.07 ERA...</div>There was a Cy Young award before Greg Maddux was born. I never said he was better; I said he deserves note because he's a great pitcher in a longball era.
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 04:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Oops, I guess I misread. It doesn't even matter if you take away runs, SBs, and RBI's because Bonds will still win. I think that even though Williams had the better avgerage (and a .344 clip for a career is the most ridiculous thing I've seen) I don't think it makes him the better player at all...He was not an amazing fielder and he was a slow runner. I wish he could have had those years back that he missed at war, but he didn't, so arguing what he "could have" done is like me saying Mays could have hit 700 easily if he didn't play at Candlestick. And Runs, SB's and RBI's are all major categories- I don't think it's fair just to ignore those stats when RBI's and runs especially are a sign of a great hitter...Mickey Mantle was definitely a great player, but he never put up numbers anywhere near the that of Barry Bonds and Teddy Ballgame. I realize Bonds numbers are tainted, but the only real season I question is 2001 (even then he wasn't as big as he was now) If he was on steroids now, then he's a bigger idiot that Gary Sheffield and I'll just say a player like Willie Mays was the greatest alive. Bonds was probably the best five-tool player in history, and has put up better power numbers than Williams and way better numbers all around than Mantle (If you want to compare a Yankee to two greats like Bonds and Williams, you should pick DiMaggio or Ruth)I'm confused as to how many years he served. Some sites only mention two years, baseball-reference mentions four, and The Captain is saying five? Did he spend four at war and miss one with an injury or something...?</div>Mantle was better then DiMaggio, and Ruth was so far back in an era where it was kinda like, "wtf baseball existed"...Mantle was a BEAST. Do u not realize he couldn't even walk once he was done with baseball? He was basically a cripple the rest of his life. It was amazing he played that many years...and he's such a winner. mantle's always gonna be the best, or at least until a-rod is done probably..
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 08:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>:HAHAHA: I hope you're joking with that statement. Some of the all-time greats played during Ruth's time: Honus Wagner, Walter Johnson, Rogers Hornsby, Christy Mathewson, Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx, etc. No offense, but you haven't said one thing to support why Mantle should be considered the greatest player other than the fact that he couldn't walk when he retired. Provide some good evidence and I might consider it, even though he's not near the level of the two people we're already talking aboutBabe Ruth during the "WTF Era" of baseball...</div>there is no other evidence because all u can really do to support your answer is stats, and I already posted that but of course his stats aren't going to be as good as bonds because bonds was on 'roids so in much better shape towards the last 5-7 years of his career...like I said I could care less of the stats, my opinion is my opinion.
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"Did they tell me how to pitch to</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">(Ted) Williams</span></span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">? Sure they did. It was great advice, very encouraging. They said he had no weakness, won't swing at a bad ball, has the best eyes in the business, and can kill you with one swing. He won't hit anything bad, but don't give him anything good." - Bobby Shantz</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"He could hit better with a broken arm than we could with two good arms." - Jerry Coleman</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"If he'd just tip he cap once, he could be elected Mayor of Boston in five minutes." - Eddie Collins</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"I got a big charge out of seeing</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted Williams</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">hit. Once in a while they let me try to field some of them, which sort of dimmed my enthusiasm." - Rocky Bridges</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"It was typical of him to become a Marine Air Corps pilot and see action and almost get shot down. He was a remarkable American as well as a remarkable ballplayer. His passing so close to a national holiday seems part of a divine plan, so we can always remember him not only as a great player but also as a great patriot." - Vin Scully</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"One of my best friends on earth and the greatest hitter I ever faced. And I faced a lot of guys, including Lou Gehrig. He was also a great friend to my wife Anne and me. He was a great American." - Bob Feller</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"</span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted's (Williams)</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">passing signals a sad day, not only for baseball fans, but for every American. He was a cultural icon, a larger-than-life personality. He was great enough to become a Hall of Fame player. He was caring enough to be the first Hall of Famer to call for the inclusion of Negro Leagues stars in Cooperstown. He was brave enough to serve our country as a Marine in not one but two global conflicts.</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted Williams</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">is a hero for all generations." - Dale Petroskey (President of the Baseball Hall of Fame)</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"</span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted (Williams)</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">was everything that was right about the game of baseball. If you really think about it, he was everything that is right about this country. It is certainly a sad day for all of us. He is a man who lost five years of service time serving his country. What he could have done with those years in the prime of his life ... it would be awesome to really put those numbers together. He would have probably been the greatest power hitter of all time." - Pirates Manager Lloyd McClendon</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"</span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted (Williams)</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">was the greatest hitter of our era. He won six batting titles and served his country for five years, so he would have won more. He loved talking about hitting and was a great student of hitting and pitchers." -</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Stan Musial</span></span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"The way those clubs shift against</span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">Ted Williams</span></span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">, I can't understand how he can be so stupid not to accept the challenge to him and hit to left field." - Ty Cobb</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"They can talk about Babe Ruth and Ty Cobb and Rogers Hornsby and Lou Gehrig and Joe DiMaggio and Stan Musial and all the rest, but I'm sure not one of them could hold cards and spades to (Ted) Williams in his sheer knowledge of hitting. He studied hitting the way a broker studies the stock market, and could spot at a glance mistakes that others couldn't see in a week." - Carl Yastrzemski</span></span></div> <div align="left"><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">"</span></span><span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:10pt;line-height:100%"><span style="color:#990000">(Ted) Williams</span></span></span> <span style="font-family:Arial"><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%">is the classic ballplayer of the game on a hot August weekday, before a small crowd, when the only thing at stake is the tissue-thin difference between a thing done well and a thing done ill." - John Updike</span></span></div>
Re: The Official "756" Thread <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SBoyd415 @ Jul 20 2007, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Didn't see Justice reply right before me, so here I go...More runs, more hits, more RBI's, more HR's, 2B's, 3Bs', TB's, and SB's, as well as a higher SLG% What more do you want? Once again, I know that Bonds has more at-bats, but that's because Williams missed four years while at war. If you want to get into the useless could have stats, I'm sure Williams would be right up there with Bonds, but he's not. It's as simple as that. Williams has always had the better team and teammates than Bonds, so I think his stats are a little above what they should be (especially in categories like runs & RBI's)</div>Listen to what I'm saying.1. You keep saying Bonds had a higher SLG% than Williams. Once again, Williams is 2nd of all time in slugging percentage behind Ruth. NOT Bonds.2. Useless? It means a lot. Bonds has more opportunities, which in turn means better stats. How can you not refute that? It's unfair to compare them strictly by stats if you don't take into account that they didn't have the same amount of at-bats.3. That's why they aren't good stats to use.. Just like wins are horrible to judge a pitcher by.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>That's fair enough, but either way, you can't say Williams is a faster baserunner or better fielder than Bonds (two of the components that allow you to be a five-tool player)</div>Is this a faster baserunner topic? Is this a better fielder topic?No, it's a H I T T I N G debate. We're not talking about stolen bases or runs or fielding.<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>I don't really think so. I'm levelheaded for the most part about Bonds unlike some Giants fans who won't even consider he took steroids. I know Ted Williams is an amazing hitter, but I just don't think he's as good as Bonds, especially with all the support he got from his team. You hear it all the time- Barry Bonds is probably the greatest to ever play the game. It's said for a reason. Because a majority feel that he might be. I really have nothing against Williams, I just don't think he'd put up the numbers Bonds has with the teams Bonds has been on.</div>What the hell does teammates have to do with anything!! Only RBI and runs depend on others. Which is why they are bad stats to use!
