What are you talking about. Dirk never was voted a starter by fans. Coaches picked him 13 times and he was chosen as a commissioner replacement pick once. That has nothing to do with Texas vs. Oregon.
Dirk had a positive dbpm for his career, Dame is negative. Dirk certainly was not a great defender, but he was not a burden on his team defense. No disrespect to Dame who's probably a better offensive player than Dirk, but you are doing Dirk dirty on his defensive ability.
good post....and yeah, I'm seeing certain posters doing a slow pivot against Dame (others with a hard pivot to loopy arguments), making I-have-an-agenda posts about his 'decline' and 'regression' and certainly, something that fits into that agenda would be trashing Dame for his reaction to Quick. LOL siding with Quick. That's rich. Dame has been dealing with Quick for a decade. So he is years into potential 'straw-that-breaks-the-back' ground. People would be pretty lame to believe this was all about a single thing Quick wrote.
just an observation: front court players and especially big men are generally advantaged by the DBPM stat; guards tend to be disadvantaged. That's especially true when they play on poor defensive teams one of the best defenders at guard is Jrue Holiday. His career DBPM is only +0.1...barely above neutral
Sure, but this is just an easy stat to view, DWS - on a per game - Dirk is 4 times higher than Dame (took total for career, divided by number of games played). Can't find easy access totals for DRPM - but from what I have tried to see at ESPN going year by year, Dame had only 1 year of a positive DRPM, I only checked 4 years for Dirk, he had a positive DRPM in 3 of them, his highest was more than twice larger than Dame's best defensive year by DRPM. Again, Dirk was not a great defender, But Dame is worse by any reasonable measure.
We disagree about his defense quite a bit....he hardly tried......his team was better defensively than Dame's Blazers but Melo and Kanter played better defense than Dirk....my opinion...not dirt...just observations....I know he's a basketball darling but I thought he was a 7 ft version of Kyle Korver. There are a handful of superstars in history that I think are overrated and he's one on my list. Nothing wrong with being an elite scorer but that's where his legacy falls in my view. Steve Nash won two MVPs without playing a lick of defense either and turned the ball over a ton....the era of guys who were lights out 3 pt shooters back then was a shorter list than it is today and praise came with that ability because it was sort of the new advantage teams would have after the era of dunking centers.
Which is exactly why we should try to hang on to the star we currently have, since he wants to be here. It'll be far harder to get 2 stars if we give Dame up than getting another star to pair with him.
A 7 ft version of kyle korver. That is incredibly offensive to Dirks legacy. I am at a loss of words.
you are more than welcome to praise Dirk.....use your words...you've met somebody who's not a gushing fan of his...no big deal...I own the opinion but I don't need to sell it to anyone...Kyle Korver was also an incredible shooter who was not a great defender.......my first comparison was Reggie Miller who also was just a sniper...don't get me wrong....I like sharp shooters...Michael Redd comes to mind as well.....but more often than not those guys aren't doing much but shooting. Dame dishes out double digit dimes often and has many, many 30 40 50 pt games. I don't really give a fuck about Dirk's legacy either.....was never ever a Mavs fan.
Your opinion, quite frankly, is just not reflected in the cold, hard, statistical data we have - and as much as I like EFK - his DBPM for his career is worse than Dame's and his DWS seems to match Dame (on a per-game value) or worse than Dame (on a per-minute played value) - so claiming he is a better defender than Dirk was, is not one I can take seriously.
ok...and that's all probably accurate but Dirk was 7' guy defending PF's and occasional C's. He wasn't defending guys who could dribble-drive every single game like a PG does. He wasn't defending the ball-handlers on PnR's like Dame does, and guards do, he was generally hedging back into the paint and defending the roll man with an occasional blitz thrown in. Dame has to guard PG's who have the ball in their hands most of the time and who are some of the best ball-handlers in the world; and he's being picked and screened by guys much bigger than he is. Defending the likes of Carlos Boozer, Antwain Jamison, and David West isn't the same as defending Stephen Curry, Chris Paul, Westbrook and Trae Young
I think we can all agree on one thing. This is a fucking ridiculously pointless thread at this point (at this point means "now" which is in the thread title). Right now Dame is injured and having the worst year maybe of his entire career when taking into consideration scoring efficiency but definitely his worst in a long time. So trading Dame now would be about as dumb of a thing as you could do. Why would we sell low on inarguably our best player in the last 25+ years? It would be the worst possible decision right now. It would be worse than just standing pat (although that is the second worst decision the team could make). So please start concentrating all of your considerable (this isn't sarcastic) knowledge and resources on what we can do to make this team better after Dame comes back from injury which let's all hope is at the beginning of the 2022-23 season.
I don't believe in that cold hard statistical data......stats are affected by the team a guy is on the court with and the opposition he faces...you don't need to take my view on Dirk seriously...nobody needs to agree with my take at all...I've said that about 3 times now but rather than take issue with my opinion....why not just praise the guy and agree to disagree.....I heckled Dirk his whole career as a spectator. Same with MJ....people freak out when I criticize MJ too....it's how I've seen the game over my decades as a fan. Everyone is welcome to their own Mt Rushmore of superstars...Dirk's not on mine. Believe me, I know how unpopular that opinion is....he's a darling of the basketball world to most fans. I also didn't claim Dame was a better defender than Dirk but that he tried harder and had more to his game than just a shot...Dame is 6'2 in shoes....Dirk is a 7 ft player who hung out at the 3 pt line more than the paint..Dame probably bangs in the post more than Dirk ever did. Dirk also didn't play most of his career with a small ball roster.In a lineup I take Dame over Dirk everytime if I'm choosing a team
I think this is a very bad take because people tend to think of bigs as defensive anchors and thus when you have one that is merely average - people tend to pan them more than they deserve - and Dirk's rookie year and his own self deprecating remarks about his defense probably helped this - but the question is not should you compare him to KG or Duncan, but do you compare him to an average big man defender - and as such, he is just capable. He was not a good rim protector - but he was a pretty good help / team defender - and during his first 10 years when his lateral movement was good - he would have probably been even better if he played as a SF which is what his original role was going to be - but he was moved to play PF and at time C in an era where mobile long people were forced to play there - meaning he would have likely been a better defender if he played in the modern NBA. It is not just me and the data that have said, we have actual reactions from people over the years that have said that. https://www.espn.com/blog/dallas/mavericks/post/_/id/4698949/believe-it-or-not-dirk-plays-good-d You do not lead a team to 11 consecutive 50+ wins playing 36+ MPG by being a shit defender. Sure, some years shit defenders might have better guys around them to cover for them (and we have seen it with the Blazers) - and they win that much, but no team has that many years of covering for shit defenders unless you have an all time great next to you during this time. The Mavs did not have that.
Who said anything about Mt. Rushmore. Dirk was an acceptable to plus defender most of his career (take out rookie year and last years when age got away from him). Dame has been a minus defender for most of his career - and the 7' thing is nothing that matters. The fact is that both Dame and Dirk are/were elite offensive players and both were clutch. I also think that at his peak, Dame is a bigger threat that Dirk was at his peak, the place where the 7' thing came to Dirk's advantage is that it was harder to slow him with defense since he could shoot over most - something that Dame can not - thus I believe Dame might be a better offensive player than Dirk when all is said and done, but Dirk was a better defensive player than Dame - and athletically, Dame is a much better athlete than Dirk ever was - so calling him worse than EFK or Dame is just wrong. All the things where Dirk used his length to his defensive advantage - Dame should use defensively for his lateral quickness.
you are misinterpreting what I'm saying . I wasn't really arguing that Dame was a good defender or that Dirk was better or anything much in the Dame vs Dirk debate rather, I was pointing out why a stat like DBPM favors big men and front court players to the disadvantage of guards and perimeter players. Their defensive responsibilities are different. And yes, I am saying that defending PG's today is harder than defending PF's 15 years ago
I provided alternate measures that show Dirk was an acceptable defender for his time. I also do not buy your 2nd argument, I believe that defending traditional PFs and Cs with Dirk's build at the time he played was as hard as it is for a super athletic guard (Dame) today to guard other super athletic guards. I also think that you put a young, more mobile Dirk in today's NBA and he would look much better defensively - since he will have to guard people his size or smaller further away from the basket than go against people bigger and stronger than him as a rim protector as he had to do any day when he played. At the end of the day, you can only judge players for the era they played in - and Dirk was not as bad a defender as some paint him (which certainly does not make him a defensive force).
I'm the guy who said something about Mt Rushmore....In the words of Terry Stotts who coached Dirk for years....."I've coached some great players but I've never coached someone as remarkable as Dame".......high praise from a coach who got a ring with Dirk.
