@Phatguysrule and i were discussing drug use and some ways to eliminate/minimize the abuses we see going on. I felt it could use its own thread to help keep other threads more on topic as to the relation of the OP. Phats, here are our last two posts in that conversation(maybe more should be moved here?). I am now adding to the above… With that said, i think we are closer to being on the same page than it may seem. I just believe, along with your suggestions, there should also be a mandatory lockdown time for those already addicted, in order to have a higher percentage of pulling through and remaining sober. This is, of course, once they have committed a crime. But the punishment of that crime should include what it takes to get clean and sober. Even if its a misdemeanor. The social safety net and improved community services is def good but I do not believe that will help the current situation. Only the future. I believe we can address the now along with tomorrow. Those addicted will not kick the havit with improved social services alone. Facts back this up in Oregon. There needs to be a lockdown period to go through the withdrawals, detoxify and then level out. THEN there are months and months of mental rehab. This doesn't happen with outpatient visits from specialists, etc. Most addicts require an in house lockdown with constant supervision and strict programming to build a sense of organization of daily activities, before they are close to being able to be on their own with minimal chance of relapse. This is where I feel jail time should be part of the solution, but the time spent in jail should be overhauled to be more of a recovery, than an institution of isolation/segregation. Once an addict has committed a crime, i feel it is no longer their choice if they want to sober up or not. They crossed the line, proved to the world they are incapable of managing their usage and will need the road to recovery forced upon them in order to be a productive member of society again. I would vote for programs like that. I am not for setting up camps for addicts to have a free space to continue to abuse. Ive been around too many addicts to know the more we give the more they take. To me, the first step is creating more recovery facilities. Step two is a better screening/psychoanalysis of all criminals to determine the reason for the crime. if deemed the individual is an addict, then they are convicted to the appropriate recovery program and the time is varied, based on the individuals progression/improvement.
I agree we need recovery facilities. That's the step we have missed. As well as police and prison reform. And we need to house all of the homeless so individuals and families are no longer forced to help support these people, rather they can just But there is no reason to keep torturing people with a system that doesn't work, just because it's the only system we have. That's insane and inhumane. Portland and Oregon can't be used as an example yet because drugs haven't been decriminalized long enough for anything except Marijuana. Which given time has shown exactly that. It's falling out of favor and somewhat losing its cool factor. Keeping substances illegal just raises the price and encourages more people to sell it, and makes it more enticing for people to use it. No prohibition has ever been successful in a democracy where people have rights to privacy. It can't work and causes more problems than it tries to address. The first step is that we need to cease causing harm. And we've taken that step. Limiting government overreach is the only way to force the kind of change needed in the US.
So do you believe all drugs should be legal to possess, consume, purchase and sell, regardless of quantity or frequency?
Its going to happen whether it’s legal or not. So I guess it depends on if you think the government should get a cut or not
This poll is going straight to the DEA along with a list of S2 ip addresses, right? Just wondering if I should call Saul in advance of taking it.
Yeah, I suppose the government is already getting some kind of cut of it by prosecuting drug crimes. There’s a lot of money being passed around within the court systems with stuff like that
I am all for a complete overhaul of our spending regarding this aNd other social services… mostly improved accountability and verification of exactly where the money goes.
Our criminal justice systems are better used focusing on actual crimes ....drug addiction is an illness and in my view shouldn't be forced into a social box with criminals. We need rehabilitation communities with on the job training programs so not only can they get sober...they can learn a skill. Chronic addicts should be in facilities that are longer term and have a probation system in place. It's not a cheap or readily assessable situation but one that would probably benefit society long term. Criminalize drug abuse, not drugs. Make the most dangerous drugs prescription only. If you can sustain a life as an alcoholic or drug addict and not impact the life of anyone around you or the general public. I think it's your personal choice. An addict is never not a junkie...or an alcoholic...they are just sober today and hopefully tomorrow. Public intoxication or reckless behavior should be policed. People need to be held accountable. If people are going to kill themselves I'd rather they do it with a drug than a gun or by cop or in an automobile or at the end of a rope...sounds harsh but I believe in personal choices as long as they don't affect anyone but yourself.
No. Only small quantities should be decriminalized. We should still control it, but not harass sick people (addicts) over it. That's why I've repeatedly said "decriminalize" rather than "legalize". We want the stakes to be very high for cartels, so people are more likely to grow or make it on their own. Make it harder for cartels to compete with the local product and there will be less of it for people buy. Then local product will be the dominant source. That's far easier to control than just cartels shipping it in.
And no, I've never done an illegal drug and I've never been drunk. I've never smoked a cigarette. I did accidently get a little high on engine degreaser once... But then I opened the door and the sensation went away. My parents did every drug in the book. I was raised in a drug house until I was 6 years old. Watched my dad get arrested dozens of times (and deservedly so). Visited him in jail many times... Nobody in government ever did anything to actually help our family. Aside from some food stamps. We were just cogs in their machine. Nothing was ever done with the intention to help. Just punish and keep us down. So they could look down their noses at us.
There is a very close correlation to drug abuse and violent crimes. In the prisons: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4070162/ This is a decent breakdown here: https://bjs.ojp.gov/drugs-and-crime-facts/drug-use-and-crime and what is in this article is this: Percent of prison and jail inmates who committed offense to get money for drugs Local jail inmates State prisoners Federal . prisoners Offense 2002 2004 2004 Total 16.4% 16.6% 18.4% Violent 8.0 9.8 14.8 Property 26.9 30.3 10.6 Drugs 24.8 26.4 25.3 Public-order 5.2 6.9 6.8 This shows that drugs indeed do play a large role in violent crimes. Decrease addiction and it will decrease violent crimes.
The addicts on the street still commit crimes for small quantities. They are broke. They cant afford large qties, but dont think for a second they wouldn't buy large qties if they didn't already run themselves into the ground. The discount alone would have them buying more if they could. You mention cartels. Maybe you should define small quantity? I consider it between an eighth and an ounce or less. Depending on the drug.
And you don't decrease addiction by punishment. Simply doesn't work. I can't find any evidence of punishment backed prohibition ever having a positive impact on addiction. It's very hard for me to support restrictions that don't make a positive impact on society.
The crimes are also tied to the accessibility and inflated costs of the drugs they steal for. To fix the problem you have to move away from that vicious cycle in my view. I don't believe illegal meth has any FDA controls over potency or distribution but as it stands you can abuse all these drugs on the black market ...Drug abuse needs to be addressed...drug addiction stats will follow the trend of treatment and legality more than lack of regulation and limited distribution.
Anything under an ounce is fine with me. 1/2 ounce would be fine. Whatever. We can always tighten it up if need be. If they are on the street committing crime they'll be arrested. The drugs are irrelevant. If they are an addict it will be obvious. If it is a recurring problem it will be dealt with. Of course we have a long way to go before our police are actually trying to help society, so there's that. We certainly shouldn't be giving police we can't trust more authority over more people, when there is no evidence that it's beneficial. In fact, most evidence points to the opposite being true. Crimes of theft, property damage, harm to others, and intimidation should be what we focus our police and jails on.
