"We should do the thing I want to do, and then in 20-30 years we can evaluate to determine if the thing I want to do made sense." Try that with your wife and see how well it goes over.
It’s a suggestion. My wife handles suggestions pretty well. It’s when I try telling her how it’s gonna be that doesn’t work well.
There are other countries (see Nordic and Scandinavian countries) with gun ownership rates as high as the US who have violent crime and murder rates as low as countries with very few guns. There are countries with low gun ownership rates and very strict gun control (Russia is an example) who have far higher violent crime and murder rates than we do here in the US. Brazil and the UK enacted sweeping gun control only to see violent crime and murder rates go up. Brazil saw both rates absolutely explode. So your suggestion is to try more of what we can't show has worked in this country or any other in the hopes that this time it does? While knowing that we have no legal way to make that happen? That simply is not logical. It just makes it seem like you aren't serious about actually solving the problem of excessive violent crime and murder. Why we would do that? Why would we continue down a path that hasn't worked in this country or any other? How is analyzing the effectiveness of proposed legislation mudding the water? That kind thinking is historically authoritarian and fascist in nature, my friend.
Are the stats you're referencing applicable to mass killings, or only overall violent crimes? Because that is the specific thing that seems to be getting the most attention and concern in the US. I know it seems counterintuitive to focus only on one aspect of violent crime, but that one aspect seems to be the one generating the majority of the fear in this country.
I answered this question above. You simply cannot compare this country with another country. What is not working is what we have been doing. What we have not done is what I'm suggesting. I'm out. There is nothing to add to this conversation for me. I know what i know. I lived what i have lived. I'm not budging one bit. Gun Control needs to happen IMO. Absolutely no disrespect. I'll leave all the "Muddy" conversations to you and others that want to continue to go round and round.
You are suggesting one thing that we haven't done. It's not as though it's the only thing we haven't done. PGR has suggested other things we haven't done, but you conveniently ignore those. However, I would agree with your decision to bow out of a conversation on a topic on which you've declared yourself intractable. Little good comes from continuing beyond that point.
Well, it can also be said that allowing everyone to easily access guns for that last 20-30 years has not gone well either.
Add a zero to the end of those numbers and your post remains accurate. I'm not arguing for the status quo.
So you want to push your agenda which data shows doesn't work. This is what I mean about not being serious about solving the problem (the problem I'm talking about is high rates of violent crime and murder). You are serious about pushing your agenda, which can't happen, and data shows doesn't actually address the problem. I'm sorry you're unwilling to engage in this important discussion, but it's tough, so I do understand your decision.
We don't allow that. But what we have done has been as effective as countries who have instituted sweeping gun control, and in fact, far more effective than some.
We do allow it in some states here. Not nearly effective enough. Look at all the mass shootings and bloodshed. There is no way to call that effective.
I think there might even be some disconnect as to what "the problem" is. Is it homicides (and suicides)? Gun violence? Mass shootings? Living in fear? Something else? Which of the many "problems" related to this issue is the primary one that legislation should be sought to solve? I think a lot of the difficulty in this debate stems from people coming at different targets, in addition to coming at them from completely different angles.
I agree. Violent crime and murder rates are the biggest problem. This is what impacts the vast majority of people and causes huge damage to our quality of life and economy. I think suicides and mass murders are best addressed together, and that's with getting people help before they get to that point. I have made proposals for how I believe these problems can best be addressed, and I would encourage more conversation on them.
Agreed. Nothing has actually been effective, except the improved social safety nets we've seen in Europe post WW2. But if we're talking about improvement compared to other solutions, it has all been similarly ineffective. But this is comparing before and after rates of the same place.
I have no agenda. There is no data for what I want. Again you cannot compare any country in the world to the United States. Not sure how many times I have to state that?
This is a big part of what the left wants...these improved social safety nets. A health care system that better serves everyone. But, the right doesn't want that. They equate socialism with communism.
You stating that you want something just because you want it isn't very compelling. Like you've said, probably just best for you to remove yourself from the conversation.
Democrats and Republicans want to argue about those things to increase donations. The left needs to apply more pressure on democrats to support policies which can actually help, and hold them accountable when they screw those policies up. For example, Clackamas county received $44 million to address homelessness last year. They have less than 900 homeless. That's over $70k per person. They spent like $4 million. We could have easily housed every homeless person in the county for that price. Including rehab or whatever other services were needed. Multnomah and Washington counties have similar levels of funding. The people have done their part in funding the solutions. Now we need to hold our leaders accountable to follow through. This is an example of progress on the kind of changes I've advocated for. These changes actually CAN happen. There is no law or amendment stopping them. *Edit* And again, I'm not suggesting socialism. Simply improved social policies which are effective in many capitalist/market based economies in the world.
Again that is not what i have done at all. I have way too much experience with this issue for you to belittle my position. I simply will not be swayed by people trying to dilute the conversation and bring in stats and situations that simply do not apply. If you want gun control then get it. If not don't sit there and site the reasons we cannot achieve it. Just say you prefer not to have gun control.
