Venom, thank you for defending Eli so well, chargers fan's still hate him, because he wants money.. but still, Eli, on his first year, owned. As far as I can see, he has the most of his career left, the rest of the qb's are ending them, so eli as a 2 year veteran, is better then them all.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Jul 1 2006, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Eli Manning > Mark BrunellEli Manning > Drew BledsoePeriod.I dont see how you can compare one QB who was chased out of Buffalo and New England and only got another job because he kissed Bill Parcells's ass in the past and another QB who was chased out of Jacksonville and only got a job because he was the most expensive QB for the Spendskins to waste their money on TO a former #1 overall pick and future, if not current, Top 10 QB.</div>Bledsoe wasn't chased out and he didn't kiss butt either. And for a ran out of town quarterback like Bledsoe, why then did he have a high completion rating than Eli? Bledsoe 60.1% and Eli 52.8. That alone tells me he's better (if he's protected like Eli...and it he was he would have been better). And not to mention Brunell's was better too at 57.7.Now I know what you're going to say so I'll say it for you, "what does completion ratings have to do with it?" Just like you said, "QB rating?" But as I would expect you will have a good excuse for Eli...
What does kissing Bill Parcell's ass have anything to do with the way he plays. No, Eli Manning proved to us he sucks under pressure. Tiki Barber did the whole offensive part on the Giants. You tell me he didn't and your just not thinking straight. By telling us that Eli fumbled less than the other QB's is just dumb to do. He still came in 2nd worst in the division for losing the football for his team.How can you think so highly of a man that is supposedly better than his brother, but yet still can't lead an offense. Hand the ball off to your RB's and let them do the work, or throw dumps to your TE or throw a longball where 1/3 of the time it's picked off. Running game:- Tiki Barber carried 357 times last year, the most ever in a single season for him.- Tiki averaged just over 22 carries a game throughtout the regular season.- Brandon Jacobs got 38 touches all year, an average of 2.375 a game.- Derrick Ward took 35 touches last year, an average of 2.2 a game.- Combined attempts of 430 all year long. Average of almost 27 carries a game.
1) Id hate to break it to you, but the Redskins 1-2-3 Runningbacks ran 468 times last year. Higher then the 430 from the Giants. If the Giants offense revolved around handing it off to the 'great' runningback then whats the Redskins excuse? 2) Chris Cooley - 10.9 Yds Per ReceptionJeremy Shockey - 13.7 Yds Per ReceptionWhich QB dumps the ball off to their Tight End and which QB uses his Tight End as a weapon?3) Manning also had a much heavier workload.Bledsoe 25 Turnovers / 499 Attempts = .050% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverBrunell 16 Turnovers / 454 Attempts = .035% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverManning 19 Turnovers / 557 Attempts = .034% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverMcNabb 12 Turnovers / 357 Attempts = .033% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverAs you can see porportion wise, the numbers between Brunell, Manning, and McNabb turnover wise are nearly identical.4) - He led his team back 14 points to defeat Denver on the road in the 4th Quarter- He led his team down the field 3 TIMES against Seattle only to have his kicker miss each time.- He led his team downfield against Philadelphia in Overtime for a win.- Scored Double-Digit points in the 4th quarter to put away a game 5 TIMESI know, such a terrible Quarterback when the games on the line... 5) New England, lost his job due to leading a Super Bowl Caliber New England Patriots to an miserable 0-2 start (and because of an injury, but he was about ready to lose his job anyway), and was traded away because they didnt want him in town.Buffalo, After 2 Full seasons where he failed to manage to get 3000 yds of offense passing the ball and Drew Bledsoe's immobility leading to about 50 sacks per season, they managed to realize when a player was washed up and got him out of town by releasing him for nothing.In came Bill Parcells, who we both know has a hard-on for signing players he used to coach (Richie Anderson, Drew Bledsoe, Jason Ferguson, Marcus Coleman, Jason Fabini, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Vinny Testaverde, ect.) and he gave Drew Bledsoe a third chance because thats what old washed up pals do for each other. Completion Percentage means very little. By your standards your saying that Chad Pennington (65.3%) is a better career quarterback then Peyton Manning (63.9%), Tom Brady (61.9%), Donovan McNabb (58.4%), Ben Roethlisberger (64.7%), Carson Palmer (64.6%), ect.
[quote name='AdropOFvenom' post='56548' date='Jul 1 2006, 07:24 PM']1) Id hate to break it to you, but the Redskins 1-2-3 Runningbacks ran 468 times last year. Higher then the 430 from the Giants. If the Giants offense revolved around handing it off to the 'great' runningback then whats the Redskins excuse? 2) Chris Cooley - 10.9 Yds Per ReceptionJeremy Shockey - 13.7 Yds Per ReceptionWhich QB dumps the ball off to their Tight End and which QB uses his Tight End as a weapon?3) Manning also had a much heavier workload.Bledsoe 25 Turnovers / 499 Attempts = .050% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverBrunell 16 Turnovers / 454 Attempts = .035% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverManning 19 Turnovers / 557 Attempts = .034% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverMcNabb 12 Turnovers / 357 Attempts = .033% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverAs you can see porportion wise, the numbers between Brunell, Manning, and McNabb turnover wise are nearly identical.4) - He led his team back 14 points to defeat Denver on the road in the 4th Quarter- He led his team down the field 3 TIMES against Seattle only to have his kicker miss each time.- He led his team downfield against Philadelphia in Overtime for a win.- Scored Double-Digit points in the 4th quarter to put away a game 5 TIMESI know, such a terrible Quarterback when the games on the line... 5) New England, lost his job due to leading a Super Bowl Caliber New England Patriots to an miserable 0-2 start (and because of an injury, but he was about ready to lose his job anyway), and was traded away because they didnt want him in town.Buffalo, After 2 Full seasons where he failed to manage to get 3000 yds of offense passing the ball and Drew Bledsoe's immobility leading to about 50 sacks per season, they managed to realize when a player was washed up and got him out of town by releasing him for nothing.In came Bill Parcells, who we both know has a hard-on for signing players he used to coach (Richie Anderson, Drew Bledsoe, Jason Ferguson, Marcus Coleman, Jason Fabini, Aaron Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Vinny Testaverde, ect.) and he gave Drew Bledsoe a third chance because thats what old washed up pals do for each other. Completion Percentage means very little. By your standards your saying that Chad Pennington (65.3%) is a better career quarterback then Peyton Manning (63.9%), Tom Brady (61.9%), Donovan McNabb (58.4%), Ben Roethlisberger (64.7%), Carson Palmer (64.6%), ect.[/quote]You bring up some good numbers but this is a word that I HATE to use....YOU'RE AN IDIOT! Pennington? He played in 3 games last year. And I'm talking about LAST YEAR! The bottom line is this, if you want to put your faith (as I'm sure you're telling every Cowboys fan) in Manning go ahead. But you've even admitted that you had the best offensive line in the division. So then what is your excuse for Eli's poor percentage rating? At least Bledsoe has that excuse beside the fact that he is a non-mobile quarterback. You talk so highly of this guy but yet the numbers show that he's not the best in the division. And of course he throw a lot...to Tiki Barber! So please don't come here with you're little facts about Eli's 4th quarter comeback. I'm sure Bledsoe, Brunell and McNabb has had more in their 3 years of playing. And you talk about the Seattle game, interesting you bring that up. Had he not thrown that interception he's kicker possibly wouldn't have been in that positive in the first place. And overtime with Philly?! Well if I'm not mistaken, they were 4-5 when you played them. So in essence, you shouldn't have went into overtime. And the double digits...I wonder what teams they were agains...Arizona, San Fran, Philly, Kansas City, Denver...Only one of those teams went to the playoffs! Go figure. And you could be right that Bledsoe was ran out of Buffalo but I bet Buffalo wished they had him now instead of JP Losman...And as far as his years in Buffalo, correct me if I'm wrong but in his first year in Buffalo he threw for 4359 yards. And that was when he had Moulds and Price...correct? Price left the following year and if I'm correct also they had a lot of injuries on the offensive line...but not to make any excuses but I just wanted you to know that.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Jul 1 2006, 07:24 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>1)Id hate to break it to you, but the Redskins 1-2-3 Runningbacks ran 468 times last year. Higher then the 430 from the Giants. If the Giants offense revolved around handing it off to the 'great' runningback then whats the Redskins excuse? 2) Chris Cooley - 10.9 Yds Per ReceptionJeremy Shockey - 13.7 Yds Per ReceptionWhich QB dumps the ball off to their Tight End and which QB uses his Tight End as a weapon?3) Manning also had a much heavier workload.Bledsoe 25 Turnovers / 499 Attempts = .050% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverBrunell 16 Turnovers / 454 Attempts = .035% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverManning 19 Turnovers / 557 Attempts = .034% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverMcNabb 12 Turnovers / 357 Attempts = .033% Percentage of plays that result in turnoverAs you can see porportion wise, the numbers between Brunell, Manning, and McNabb turnover wise are nearly identical.4) - He led his team back 14 points to defeat Denver on the road in the 4th Quarter- He led his team down the field 3 TIMES against Seattle only to have his kicker miss each time.- He led his team downfield against Philadelphia in Overtime for a win.- Scored Double-Digit points in the 4th quarter to put away a game 5 TIMESI know, such a terrible Quarterback when the games on the line... </div>1) This has nothing to do with the Redskins, so that is irrelevant.2) How does YPC have anything to do with dump offs? Shockey can run after the catch.3) Wow, good point, much heavier work load. Want to take a guess why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T MOVE THE BALL THROUGH THE AIR!4) Don't even mention when Feely missed all 3 times. He lost the game, got that?And also, big deal, have of those comebacks were due to Tiki Barber, which I've been saying all along. You can't say a man that rushes for 2,000 yards in a season didn't carry his team.I really don't know what's gotten into you lately, but you seem to be on everyone's case lately.
1) This has nothing to do with the Redskins, so that is irrelevant.-How can you say that the Giants offense is revolved around handing the ball to the Runningback and becuase of that Brunell is better then Manning and then try to claim its irrelevant. If you want to hold the 430 runs against Manning then you have to hold the 468 runs against Brunell.2) How does YPC have anything to do with dump offs? Shockey can run after the catch.-Thus why Chris Cooley had a higher YAC, right?http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/bycatego...egory=ReceivingCooley - 6.8 YACShockey - 5.0 YAC3) Wow, good point, much heavier work load. Want to take a guess why? BECAUSE HE CAN'T MOVE THE BALL THROUGH THE AIR!-Thus why Manning threw for 712 more yards and one more touchdown, right?4) Don't even mention when Feely missed all 3 times. He lost the game, got that?And also, big deal, have of those comebacks were due to Tiki Barber, which I've been saying all along. You can't say a man that rushes for 2,000 yards in a season didn't carry his team.-If Manning hadnt driven the ball down the field 3 TIMES then Feely wouldnt have been in a position to choke.And I didnt say that Barber didnt help to carry his team, but how exactly didnt Portis help to carry his team? Because you're trying to say that Brunell is better then Manning because Barber carries the Giants. However, Portis carries the Redskins so whats your point?I really don't know what's gotten into you lately, but you seem to be on everyone's case lately.-Havent been on anybody's case...just a good old fashioned debate.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Project @ Jul 1 2006, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Venom, thank you for defending Eli so well, chargers fan's still hate him, because he wants money.. but still, Eli, on his first year, owned. As far as I can see, he has the most of his career left, the rest of the qb's are ending them, so eli as a 2 year veteran, is better then them all.</div>I wouldn't go as far to say Donovan McNabb's career is ending...
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GaMeTiMe @ Jul 2 2006, 08:54 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Project @ Jul 1 2006, 01:14 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Venom, thank you for defending Eli so well, chargers fan's still hate him, because he wants money.. but still, Eli, on his first year, owned. As far as I can see, he has the most of his career left, the rest of the qb's are ending them, so eli as a 2 year veteran, is better then them all.</div>I wouldn't go as far to say Donovan McNabb's career is ending...</div>I think he was referring to mainly Bledsoe and Brunell. McNabb still has some years ahead of him and until proven otherwise is the best QB of the East.
[quote name='CipherCowboy' post='56582' date='Jul 1 2006, 06:45 PM']You bring up some good numbers but this is a word that I HATE to use....YOU'RE AN IDIOT! Pennington? He played in 3 games last year. And I'm talking about LAST YEAR! The bottom line is this, if you want to put your faith (as I'm sure you're telling every Cowboys fan) in Manning go ahead. But you've even admitted that you had the best offensive line in the division. So then what is your excuse for Eli's poor percentage rating? At least Bledsoe has that excuse beside the fact that he is a non-mobile quarterback. You talk so highly of this guy but yet the numbers show that he's not the best in the division. And of course he throw a lot...to Tiki Barber![/quote]Your exact words... I didnt say he was one of the best, I said that following the same logic that you just used (Completion Percentage is the only stat that matters), you're saying that Chad Pennington is one of the best Quarterbacks in NFL History. Now obviously, Chad Pennington is NOT one of the best Quarterbacks in NFL History though so that kinda blows your point out of the water.False on the O-line point. I said he had a worse O-line then the Eagles, and about an equal one to the Redskins. Go back and check it if you dont believe me. What stats? Cause Id love to see these....More Yards then Bledsoe, McNabb, BrunellMore TDs then Bledsoe, McNabb, BrunellLess Fumbles then Bledsoe, McNabb, BrunellLess Turnovers then Bledsoe, and if you want to project the stats out to Manning's workload then Brunell too.If you want to get into trivial stats like QB Rating and Completion Percentage thats fine, but Chad Pennington is one of the best in the NFL in both those areas and where has that gotten him? Tiki Barber - 54 rec, 530 ydsJulius Jones - 35 rec, 218 yds<u>Marion Barber - 18 rec, 115 yds</u>Dallas RB's - 53 rec, 333 ydsBrian Westbrook - 61 rec, 616 ydsHow didnt Bledsoe and McNabb do the same? Just Barber and Westbrook were more productive with the ball once they got it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'>Giants | Manning put up numbers in 2005; some still questioning the positionMon, 3 Jul 2006 18:07:21 -0700Rick Gosselin, of the Dallas Morning News, reports some people still think quarterback is a potential weak spot for the New York Giants, despite the presence of QB Eli Manning. Only three quarterbacks threw for more touchdowns (24) than Manning last season and only four threw for more yards (3,762). He took the Giants to an NFC East title in his first full season as a starter and has won 12 of his past 18 games. It appears Manning is judged by a higher standard since he is part of the Manning family of quarterbacks.</div>http://www.kffl.com/hotw/nfl
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Jul 2 2006, 01:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'> And of course he throw a lot...to Tiki Barber!</div>Tiki Barber - 54 rec, 530 ydsJulius Jones - 35 rec, 218 yds<u>Marion Barber - 18 rec, 115 yds</u>Dallas RB's - 53 rec, 333 ydsBrian Westbrook - 61 rec, 616 ydsHow didnt Bledsoe and McNabb do the same? Just Barber and Westbrook were more productive with the ball once they got it.</div>Wow cool. You just completely contradicted yourself with Tiki there. I told you Tiki carried the offense. Let me see, he touched the ball 54 times recieving and carried the ball 357 times. Wow, a total of 411 times. The Giants ran 1055 plays during the regular season according to NFL.com which leaves only 644 plays without Tiki Barber. Tiki Barber was involved in approximately 38.9% of the entire team's offensive plays. Now, Eli threw 557 times, minus the 54 to Tiki that were completed. This leaves Eli with 503 attempts to other recievers. He only completed 294, and again subtract Tiki's 54 leaving him with only 240 passes completed to other recievers. That's a nice 47.7% completion percentage without dumping the ball off out of the backfield, right?
Now, because you want to bust on Brunnell, here is the same exact situation:Clinton Portis combined touches on the ball of 382 times, 30 receiving and 352 carries.The Redskins offense ran a total of 1037 plays according to NFL.com.CP accounts for approx. 36.8% of those plays.Now, Brunnell threw a complete total of 454 passes, which you subtract the 30 CP caught and you get 424, and subtract 30 from his completion total of 262 and you get 232.Completion % to other receivers, 54.7%. Wow, big difference, right?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Capt. Comeback @ Jul 4 2006, 09:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Wow cool. You just completely contradicted yourself with Tiki there. I told you Tiki carried the offense.Let me see, he touched the ball 54 times recieving and carried the ball 357 times. Wow, a total of 411 times.The Giants ran 1055 plays during the regular season according to NFL.com which leaves only 644 plays without Tiki Barber. Tiki Barber was involved in approximately 38.9% of the entire team's offensive plays.Now, Eli threw 557 times, minus the 54 to Tiki that were completed. This leaves Eli with 503 attempts to other recievers. He only completed 294, and again subtract Tiki's 54 leaving him with only 240 passes completed to other recievers. That's a nice 47.7% completion percentage without dumping the ball off out of the backfield, right?</div>I didnt contradict myself, I said that Tiki Barber was the more productive back when he was given the ball last season, which since he had the highest Yards Per Attempt and most Rushing Yards in the NFC East and the 2nd best Yards Per Reception and 2nd Best Yards Recieveing is a fact. In order for that to be a contradiction I would have had to said that Tiki Barber wasnt the most productive back in the NFC East last season. Which I never said. Now lemme ask you something. How does a player with 36.8% of his teams snaps, NOT help carry his team? Because thats what your trying to argue here. Either way if a runningback is given the ball 38% percent of his snaps or 36% of his snaps he is carrying his offense.The second part of your formula doesnt make any sense though, because your not subtracting the times Manning threw to Barber and it was incomplete. I could subtract the 80- completions Santana Moss had and Brunell's stats would be pathetic then, but it doesnt make any sense without the amount of times he was the target and didnt catch it.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Jul 5 2006, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The second part of your formula doesnt make any sense though, because your not subtracting the times Manning threw to Barber and it was incomplete. I could subtract the 80- completions Santana Moss had and Brunell's stats would be pathetic then, but it doesnt make any sense without the amount of times he was the target and didnt catch it.</div>He was suggesting that when you pass the ball to a runningback there is a lot less coverage on them in the backfield, whereas passing to a WR or TE almost always involves throwing into some sort of coverage on the reciever.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JHair @ Jul 5 2006, 08:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (AdropOFvenom @ Jul 5 2006, 12:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>The second part of your formula doesnt make any sense though, because your not subtracting the times Manning threw to Barber and it was incomplete. I could subtract the 80- completions Santana Moss had and Brunell's stats would be pathetic then, but it doesnt make any sense without the amount of times he was the target and didnt catch it.</div>He was suggesting that when you pass the ball to a runningback there is a lot less coverage on them in the backfield, whereas passing to a WR or TE almost always involves throwing into some sort of coverage on the reciever.</div>Yet the Giants would often line up Barber was a slot WR, so whats his point?
I'm not sure. I don't think he took that into consideration and was only thinking of backfeild receptions.
Ok, so what Adrop? A RB can't go deeper than a dumpoff once in a while? How many times do you see a reciever downfield rather than running a flat or a swing? You don't.
