Sharpe vs. Chauncey

Discussion in 'Portland Trail Blazers' started by Rastapopoulos, Feb 13, 2025.

  1. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    Pretty simple, really.

    First. it's 2 minutes per game.

    Second, Scoot played 30 minutes or more in 12 of his last 14 games last year. That included two game of more than 40 minutes and several others in the high 30s.

    His four biggest-minute games last season came in that stretch, when he was running with Banton and Kris Murray because Ant, Shaedon and Jerami had been shut down for the year, Deni was playing for the Wizards, Timelord was out and Clingan was in college.

    Stuff doesn't happen in a vacuum. The Blazers are a deeper, healthier team this year. The games, though, are still 48 minutes.

    Last night, Scoot logged his eighth 30-minute game since Jan. 14. He was on track for another if he hadn't gotten hurt against Denver and he also had a game in there when he fouled out in just 13 minutes. That brought his numbers down a bit.

    In other words, context is important here. And his numbers are superior in almost every respect, so what exactly is the complaint here? That he's adjusted and got it but just not the way you wanted him to, or that the negative narrative just hasn't gotten enough play?
     
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  2. B-Roy

    B-Roy If it takes months

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    https://www.wweek.com/sports/2025/02/19/how-high-can-shaedon-sharpe-soar/

    It's a mix of stuff here. Some positive, some not so positive. It's hard to see what motivates Sharpe, and that shows on the count.

     
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  3. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    he also had a team high 4 TOs in those 21 minutes. I've zero issues with any coach responding to poor play from a young player with fewer minutes

    STOMP
     
  4. PCmor7

    PCmor7 Generational Poster

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    I think he turned it over the first two times he touched the ball. The first was a lazy no-look pass he threw right into the hands of a defender.

    I've said this before, and I hope I'm wrong, but Shaedon displays a lot of the traits of players who didn't care a great deal about being great. They were fine being good.
     
  5. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Young players are going to make mistakes. You address those issues in the film room and walking through other options in practice.

    Young guys have high turnover games. It happens. It often happens more when they lack confidence. They become tentative and indecisive.

    The way Sharpe is playing is the way people play when their coach is robbing them of their confidence. I've seen it tons of times.

    He's not out there trying to make turnovers. He doesn't need punished for it. Getting the turnover is punishment enough.

    You pull guys for turnovers when you're choosing wins over that player.

    Sharpe playing that little is a joke.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2025
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  6. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    TOV/100-possessions:

    Jerami Grant 2.0
    Toumani Camara 2.2
    Robert Williams 2.4
    Jabari Walker 2.5
    Deandre Ayton 2.8
    Shaedon Sharpe 3.0
    Anfernee Simons 3.1
    Donovan Clingan 3.6
    Dalano Banton 3.9
    Deni Avdija 4.2
    Scoot Henderson 4.8

    turnover rate:

    Jerami Grant 9.0
    Shaedon Sharpe 10.7
    Anfernee Simons 11.1
    Deandre Ayton 12.2
    Dalano Banton 13.0
    Jabari Walker 13.9
    Toumani Camara 13.9
    Deni Avdija 16.4
    Robert Williams 16.6
    Scoot Henderson 19.0
    Donovan Clingan 20.1

    obviously, those numbers need to be gauged alongside assists and usage
     
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  7. Cugel

    Cugel The epitome of mediocrity

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    You dont get better by sitting on the bench and/or garbage time.
     
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  8. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    That was a terrible pass right into the chest of Austin Reaves who then had a layup. The next time down the court he literally kicked the ball while dribbling. Here's hoping his struggles are unacceptable to him lighting a fire to work on his weaknesses and the basis for future success.

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2025
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  9. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    Nonsense. Young players improve all the time despite not getting big minutes in every single game. They improve in practice, they improve working on their skills in drills with trainers (Sharpe really needs to improve his handle) & they naturally fill out into their bodies and get stronger & more coordinated. Lessons they learn & work they put in today don't necessarily pay off immediately, it often takes some time.

    Even if your point held water, it would be undermined by the fact that Shaedon is averaging 30 MPG for the season. He's definitely struggling though which lots of young guys do on their way to figuring things out... here's hoping

    STOMP
     
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  10. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    the NBA 'touch' stats for Portland are kind of interesting:

    touches per game:

    Simons 65.0
    Scoot 59.9
    Avdija 59.8
    Sharpe 46.8
    Ayton 45.1
    Camara 41.8
    Grant 40.4
    Banton 34.8
    Timelord 23.6
    Clingan 23.3
    Walker 13.5
    Murray 13.1

    average seconds/touch

    Scoot 4.59
    Simons 4.55
    Banton 3.82
    Sharpe 3.32
    Avdija 3.04
    Grant 2.60
    Camara 1.94
    Murray 1.90
    Walker 1.77
    Ayton 1.61
    Clingan 1.48
    Timelord 1.30

    average dribbles/touch:

    Scoot 4.08
    Simons 4.07
    Banton 2.99
    Sharpe 2.77
    Avdija 2.20
    Grant 1.81
    Murray 1.15
    Camara 1.08
    Walker 0.84
    Ayton 0.57
    Clingan 0.42
    Timelord 0.33

    average points/touch:

    Sharpe 0.363
    Grant 0.357
    Ayton 0.320
    Murray 0.307
    Simons 0.283
    Walker 0.269
    Banton 0.254
    Avdija 0.247
    Camara 0.246
    Timelord 0.246
    Clingan 0.240
    Scoot 0.207

    a bit surprising that Grant is 2nd in points/touch. However, he led the Blazers last season at 0.400 so his lack of efficiency this season is noticeable. Might be that Grant isn't quite the low efficiency ball-hog we're assuming

    I'm assuming these numbers do not gauge points from assists. I recall seeing a metric of around 1.2 points/assist (fantasy is 1.5). If you used the 1.2 gauge, then points/touch would be:

    Sharpe 0.422
    Grant 0.422
    Simons 0.375
    Avdija 0.317
    Scoot 0.313

    I would think if we are adding credit for assists, then we should be debiting for turnovers. But I don't know how that could be assessed

    I think we are undervaluing Sharpe because he has failed the expectations gauge. We can see that he should be doing better than he is. But before the Blazers discard him as a bust they really need to examine if Billups is the best coach for Sharpe. I don't believe he is
     
  11. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    Jermaine O'Neal says hi
     
  12. Cugel

    Cugel The epitome of mediocrity

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    I would wager players would say they learn the most by playing minutes that matter.
     
  13. STOMP

    STOMP mere fan

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    I would wager motivated rather then entitled players learn the most and thats best instilled early on. Especially for young guys, minutes should be earned not just for the benefit of an individual player's development, but for the benefit of the team's culture.

    And again, dude is averaging 30 MPG which is top 5 on the team & has played the 4th most minutes overall. Which of those are minutes that don't matter?

    STOMP
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2025
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  14. Rastapopoulos

    Rastapopoulos Well-Known Member

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    People forget that Jermaine got his chance and whiffed on it. He was rumored to be great in practice, but every time he got minutes (including starters minutes because of injuries) he shat the bed. Not saying it wasn't a bad trade (shoulda let Grant go instead of sign-and-trading him for Kemp, two cases where Trader Bob did too much) but (a) we had Rasheed and Brian Grant, and (b) Jermaine obviously needed to go to a team where he was anointed the next Jesus but a GM who'd staked his rep on him.
     
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  15. wizenheimer

    wizenheimer Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe that's true

    upload_2025-2-22_16-9-7.png

    upload_2025-2-22_16-9-56.png

    there aren't really any significant differences in production rates and efficiency between Portland and Indiana. The only significant difference is he averaged 11.5 minutes in 4 seasons in Portland and 35 minutes in his first 2 seasons in Indiana
     
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  16. Phatguysrule

    Phatguysrule Well-Known Member

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    Almost like players tend not to "look" as good when they have a short leash... Hmmm ...
     
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  17. MrDraftGuy

    MrDraftGuy Well-Known Member

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    Since we're segwaying into Jermaine and young players.....

    Prep to Pro types, which Sharpe as since he skipped his HS senior year, typically takes 4-5 years to become a reliable 2oppg type.

    We saw this with T-Mac, Giannis, Kobe, Moses Malone, KG, Dwight Howard, and yes, Jermaine O'Neal (though, he took 7 years). Then, Amare and Lebron were the only ones who could do it in a shorter amount of time than those guys and Flagg is looking like a guy who could do similar unless he gets drafted into a deep team. Kobe was close to 20ppg in his 3rd year - albeit, different era - and would reach it in his 4th year.

    That's just the trajectory with young players.

    Technically, Sharpe is already 20ppg Per 36 and 20ppg in nights where he is given 15+ shots a game, which is usually the standard FGA for a star player. For most of the season, he was the team's leading scorer per possession and per 36 minutes.

    I think benching him is a good tool for a month or two but it'd likely take an offseason or two to develop defense.

    Personally, my belief is to just let him play after this current road trip ends and figure it out during live play.
     
  18. Natebishop3

    Natebishop3 Don't tread on me!

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    I would say the PF stat is pretty bad. Just from what I remember, he always looked lost when he was on the floor, and we had so many bigs at that point. He couldn't get steady minutes.
     
  19. sheed30

    sheed30 Well-Known Member

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    it’s very true, not sure why you trying to debunk that. Brian Grant went down for a good chunk of games the second half of the season, and O’Neal didn’t do much in his time playing extra mins for that whole stretch really.
     
  20. PtldPlatypus

    PtldPlatypus Let's go Baby Blazers! Staff Member Global Moderator Moderator

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    It was a pretty small chunk of that season; Grant missed 9 games between March 6th and 26th. Even during that stretch, JO got over 20 minutes just 3 times. The game before Grant's return , O'Neal played 31 minutes (his only 30 minute game that season), putting up 12/10 with 5 blocks. After that standout performance, he was relegated to 15 mpg the rest of the season. He was never given anything close to "starter's minutes".

    There was only one stretch as a Blazer where he got 20+mpg for more than 3 consecutive games--in February of his second season. He averaged 26 mpg over a 6-game stretch, and averaged 13/9 with 1.5 blocks on 65% shooting. He was rewarded for that strong stretch of play with 7.7 mpg over the next month.

    Looking objectively, it's very difficult to argue that O'Neal was given much opportunity to be successful on the court in Portland.
     

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