OFFICIAL THREAD: Kobe Bryant vs. Tracy McGrady

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "SCBrian":</div><div class="quote_post">agreed...its ok for him to chase after it as long as its not harming his team...Shaq had a nice game...hope he gets some down time though soon so he doesnt over exert himself...

oh and btw..

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/rosen/021210.html

there's just one of many reports i've read knocking t-mac's defense...yah...your turn to come up with some sort of factual basis for your statement that tmac is a better defender then kobe...</div>

sorry SC i wish i could put it in your face cuz i know ive seen em on tv and read em in the papers but im honestly justnot good enough with computers to go scan and findyou exactly the ones i saw so i guess u can say u win this one if u want. kobe sure hasnt cooled off yet but hes obviously very concerned with the streak. iguess it doesnt matter as long as the team is winning

 

you're right it doesn't matter...the guy has an amazing streak going...

if they're secure in their lead...why not just let him do his thing to extend it? keep in mind if his teammates cared that much (like you ppl are trying to assume they do)...they could freeze him out and not get him touches at any time...they are just as happy for kobe and rooting for him just as much if not more then he is for himself...its their way of paying him back for putting them on his back in my opinion for the last 13 games now...he's done a great job...

and no...the reason you can't find any of the reports is because you won't find any...T-Mac is constantly knocked for his defensive play...i dunno where u get half the crap you say from...you must live in your own little world or something...

 

fair points but its not a solid case.
kobe would have to be an absolute IDIOT not to dish the ball when shaqs out there. he even can have faith in varying degrees inthe other role players on his time. Fox fisher and HOrry can all hit their share. Especially recently McGrady hasnt had such a luxury on his team. When i see him shooting more than his share it seems out of neessecity whereas kobe looks more concerned with statistical accomplishments when perhaps he should be dishing more than he already does. especially latley

 

no comment...

 

here's my take...

you have to give props for kobe's achievements. all the records he's broken/set. all three championships that he's won. all the clutch shots and clutch playmaking in big big games. you also have to admire his passion for the game, and his desire to be the very best.

yes, he does have the luxury of shaq. BUT he also has the burden of shaq. what i mean is, he had to learn to share the ball to some degree. we can all remember the "feud" that went on between the two. i honestly don't think that everyone would be willing to share the rock with shaq and be the sidekick.

now for t-mac....you have to give t-mac props too. he carried his team into the playoffs. forgive me for not having any statistical facts, but t-mac was the man that carried his team. i was extremely dissappointed in the way he reacted when his team was on the verge of losing against the hornets. "just look at baron davis....he has all of these other players around him to make him look good....and look at me...." blah blah blah. he didn't sound all too classy or professional about it. but hey, it appears to me that he's learning.

remember when he kicked it with the sniper victim? remember how he offered jordan his starting spot in the all-star game? t-mac is truly growing into a good person....but anyways, back to basketball...

now try this one for size...what if kobe and t-mac switched teams? do you think kobe would've been able to carry his (east coast) team into the playoffs? i'd think so. do you think t-mac would thrive on a team with shaq and phil jackson? i definitely think so. if t-mac had phil jackson as coach, help him refine his game, get his head on straight, i think t-mac would have similar achievements as kobe.

the only difference that i see between t-mac and kobe is desire. other than that, i think they would be interchangeable.

 

i think that t-mac is such a solid citizen and good guy...

when he hung out with the sniper victim...watching them i really got the sense that he was genuine and not just trying to do it to look good...same thing when he offered up his spot to jordan...that was just a classy move and he definitely has a lot of respect for the great players in the league current and past and for the game itself...i like that about him...

doc rivers seems to think a lot of him too...

but i think if jordan were in the west or kobe were in the east...that kobe woulda offered up the spot to him as well...kobe seems a little colder to the public then T-Mac does...i agree with that...

 

WOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!! It is TIME to get into the mix baby.

I have always been a "Kobe-hater" as the laker fans so often call it. Everyone is so amazed by his scoring ability, that they forget how many shots he is taking. McGrady would score just as many ANY given night if he took as many shots as Kobe does. Kobe has taken a league-leading 1326 this year, while McGrady has only taken 1229, and yet still has managed to keep a 0.6 scoring advantage over Kobe.

Say what you will about Kobe's magical ability to play like a point guard out of position and gain a whole assist more than T-Mac a game, He averages 3.75 turnovers a game, 2nd in the league, compared to T-Mac's 2.39, which falls 31 happy places down to magical number 33. How efficient Kobe plays, oh, how efficient.

Don't get me started on this whole "Kobe doesn't have as good a supporting cast" business Damcrien Nomenca-whatchamacallit started. To prove my point, let's take a trip to a place I call "THE PAINT". This is where what we call the "Center" resides. Who is the center for the Lakers? Ah, tiz a fine playa, we call him shaqzillah, and he eats all otha centaz fo dinna he doezz. playazz enjoy a'shtuffin their shtats az dey pass da ball to da "Paint" to shaqzzilla, where he prosheeds to shlam it down on their azzes. This gives wat we like ta' call an "assist". Dis also draws a double team, which leaves a 4 on 3 situation for the rset of the team.

Ok, enougn Irish. Basically, this equals: Easy Assists, and not as many double teams on Kobe as T-Mac gets becuase of shaq.

So I hope after my hard-earned time spent on writing this post, you will see that yes, T-Mac is the better play, Tiz the finest playa in the league... yes... yes...

 

explain then why kobe's fg% is better...

ouch...yah...

T-Mac has played in 51 games this season...

1229 FG's / 51 games = 24.1 fga per game

Kobe has played in 55 games this season

1326 FG's / 55 games = WOW 24.1 fga per game...

so whats ur point? T-Mac's higher scoring average comes from the number of 3pters he has made and attempted...Kobe's 3pt % is also superior to T-Macs...

Shaq rarely dunks the ball without taking more then one dribble or making an individual move on his own...which nulls the 'easy assist' point u made because if a player still has to make an individual move to get the bucket it doesnt' count as an assist for the passing player...

and if u note...many coaches see the reason the Lakers are so difficult to guard is because you have to double team both Kobe and Shaq...Kobe sees just as many double teams as Shaq does...especially recently...which really leaves a 3 on 1 situation for fox / horry / fisher... uh yah... when Shaq is in Kobe has a better supporting cast then McGrady... no one in their right mind would contest this... but when Shaq is out ... McGrady has many more options then Kobe... and i will argue that McGrady and not Kobe gets the easy assists... reason? lights out perimeter shooters to dish to when he is on the drive (used to be mike miller and garrity) now giricek and garrity... these players will catch and shoot and hit...that gets an assist...not dumping into shaq and letting him take two dribbles and spin around his defender for a dunk... i suggest u learn a thing or two about basketball before u try to say with confidence that T-Mac is the best player in the league...

who are you to judge who the best player in the league is if u don't even know what constitutes an assist?

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "SCBrian":</div><div class="quote_post">...Kobe sees just as many double teams as Shaq does...especially recently...which really leaves a 3 on 1 situation for fox / horry / fisher... uh yah... </div>

lol... you have dug yourself in a major hole now, dawg, a 3 on 1 situation, with fox, horry, and fisher, all 3pt shooters??? And you think I don't know what constitutes an assist? Please dog, let's not try and say what the percentage of Shaq's dunks come off of, becuase MANY, MANY, MANY of his dunks DO come off of easy passes to the post, when shaq is in position to just go up right over someone and make dunks In traffic, something that the Magic don't have a guy to do.

Another thing SCBrian, I've had to tell you several times not to insult other posters when you post, and you just did it again. It is not a good argument to tell another poster to "Look up their stats" and "Learn a thing or two about basketball".

And... you ask how Kobe can have averaged less points a game while taking more shots than McGrady?? Free Throw Line. Enough Said.

I'm out, I hope you've learned your lesson big man.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "STING":</div><div class="quote_post"><div class="quote_poster">Quoting "SCBrian":</div><div class="quote_post">...Kobe sees just as many double teams as Shaq does...especially recently...which really leaves a 3 on 1 situation for fox / horry / fisher... uh yah... </div>

lol... you have dug yourself in a major hole now, dawg, a 3 on 1 situation, with fox, horry, and fisher, all 3pt shooters??? And you think I don't know what constitutes an assist? Please dog, let's not try and say what the percentage of Shaq's dunks come off of, becuase MANY, MANY, MANY of his dunks DO come off of easy passes to the post, when shaq is in position to just go up right over someone and make dunks In traffic, something that the Magic don't have a guy to do.

Another thing SCBrian, I've had to tell you several times not to insult other posters when you post, and you just did it again. It is not a good argument to tell another poster to "Look up their stats" and "Learn a thing or two about basketball".

And... you ask how Kobe can have averaged less points a game while taking more shots than McGrady?? Free Throw Line. Enough Said.

I'm out, I hope you've learned your lesson big man.</div>

to answer your knocks on me in order:

" fox, horry, and fisher, all 3pt shooters"
all 3pt shooters maybe...all less efficent then Kobe from 3pt range...yup...

"Another thing SCBrian, I've had to tell you several times not to insult other posters when you post, and you just did it again. It is not a good argument to tell another poster to "Look up their stats" and "Learn a thing or two about basketball"."

i don't give a fuck? if you're wrong im gonna tell you you're wrong...oh and by the way...you're wrong...why is it not a good thing to say go look up the stats if the stats prove them wrong? Shaq is not an easy assist man to have and Fox Fisher and Horry are all less efficient catch and shoot players then Miller or Giricek or Garrity will ever be...T-Mac gets easier assists...maybe you should go moderate another forum...about barbie dolls or something cuz u sure don't know much about basketball...

"MANY, MANY, MANY of his dunks DO come off of easy passes to the post, when shaq is in position to just go up right over someone and make dunks In traffic"

wrong...no matter how easy the entry pass is its wut the player does with the ball after he catches it...Shaq backs people down...1 two dribbles and then makes, now listen closely this is the key, an INDIVIDUAL MOVE to beat his defender and get that dunk...whether that individual move be backing him down until he can just turn and dunk or a drop step to hammer it home...its still an individual move and there is still no assist for that play...off of an alley-oop yah...when kobe drives and dumps the ball to Shaq where he can just catch and go up without having to turn around...yah there's an assist...not exactly easy...

Kobe Bryant - FTM - 402 FTA - 482 FT% - .834
Tracy Mcgrady - FTM - 380 FTA - 476 FT% - .798

good answer...i already said that the difference was from 3pt range where T-Mac has made more 3pters then Kobe has...he's also taken more and shoots 4% less efficient than Kobe does from 3pt land...

teach me some more lessons plz...oh wise one...

 

as far as efficiency of the two players go, McGrady is ranked 4th with Kobe following a close 5th. I think the formula is pretty straight forward and fair. Efficiency Formula: ((PTS + REB + AST + STL + BLK) - ((FGA - FGM) + (FTA - FTM) + TO)) / G

 

kobe is actually ranked second in efficiency behind only garnett now...t-mac remains 4th...

 

and may i add...

if you're gonna try to be 'hip' and 'ghetto'...

at least be consistent in the way you spell 'dawg'...'dog'...

fo sheezy...

uhh anyways yah...

 

Tmac

Feb. 17th-Feb 23rd.

Tracy McGrady
Orlando Magic
McGrady led the Magic to a 3-0 record while averaging 40.7 points, 7.0 rebounds and 7.7 assists per game.

Kobe Bryant
L.A. Lakers
Bryant led the Lakers to a 4-0 record while averaging 43.3 points, 6.5 rebounds and 3.0 assists per game.

T-Mac can be a complete player even when scoring 40+. T-Mac is younger, reached his potential faster. T-Mac is also on a team by himself, where as Kobe plays along side the most dominant player in the game.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "Mel":</div><div class="quote_post">here's my take...

you have to give props for kobe's achievements. all the records he's broken/set. all three championships that he's won. all the clutch shots and clutch playmaking in big big games. you also have to admire his passion for the game, and his desire to be the very best.

yes, he does have the luxury of shaq. BUT he also has the burden of shaq. what i mean is, he had to learn to share the ball to some degree. we can all remember the "feud" that went on between the two. i honestly don't think that everyone would be willing to share the rock with shaq and be the sidekick.

now for t-mac....you have to give t-mac props too. he carried his team into the playoffs. forgive me for not having any statistical facts, but t-mac was the man that carried his team. i was extremely dissappointed in the way he reacted when his team was on the verge of losing against the hornets. "just look at baron davis....he has all of these other players around him to make him look good....and look at me...." blah blah blah. he didn't sound all too classy or professional about it. but hey, it appears to me that he's learning.

remember when he kicked it with the sniper victim? remember how he offered jordan his starting spot in the all-star game? t-mac is truly growing into a good person....but anyways, back to basketball...

now try this one for size...what if kobe and t-mac switched teams? do you think kobe would've been able to carry his (east coast) team into the playoffs? i'd think so. do you think t-mac would thrive on a team with shaq and phil jackson? i definitely think so. if t-mac had phil jackson as coach, help him refine his game, get his head on straight, i think t-mac would have similar achievements as kobe.

the only difference that i see between t-mac and kobe is desire. other than that, i think they would be interchangeable.</div>


i agree with pretty much everything you said mel ECXEPT, i think shaq is so dominant that you substitute a handful of players in the game ( T-Mac, Francis, Pierce etc.) and have the same results if not better, but kobe is a scoring machine and a highlight film machine as well. hes very concerned with how he looks when he plays, he exagerrates his movements and celebrations and puts up great numbers. he gives the fans a show. but i dont think its fair to call l him the best all around player in the game or even the most dominant. i would like tos ee him go to another team after shaq retires and start from the bottom. even a mid lower teir team where he can use his experience and prove himself a leader and a winner would be good for him.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "shapecity":</div><div class="quote_post">
Stop using Shaq as a crutch for Kobe. Kobe is great with or without Shaq. If you fail to see that then your hatred for Kobe is definately blinding you. Could he win a championship without Shaq? We don't know yet. Could T-Mac win a championship with Shaq? We don't know that either.</div>

WRONG. im sorry shape but it is a crutch for kobe. hes in shaqs shadow even if people dont like to believe it. even if he puts up great stats. his dominance is not such that hes the one leading the team to a championhsip. hes just another star in the nba and he happens to be one of the better ones. I am very confident as i said the kobe could not win a championsiip without shaq or another superstar player on his team. T-MAc is for all intensive purposes by himself. miller is gone. armstrong, H. Grant, Grant H., Garritty have none done their job this year but the magic are still in contention