Often when people debate about the best point guards in the league Jason Kidd ends up being number one. I'm not disputing that, because I think he is also, however I was thinking about a couple of the main reasons that are given for why people think he is the best. The main reason I see is that he makes the players around him so much better. In Dallas this was the only real case (even though Mash made his only all-star appearance after he left Dallas). After Dallas he went to Phoenix. In Phoenix Antonio McDyess played one year with Kidd and that happened to be his worst year in the league even now besides his rookie year. The year after Cliff was without Jason Kidd his statistics raised in every category besides points and his assists were only down .5 from the previous year. After Steve Nash left Jason Kidd he became an all-star point guard (though that is due in part mainly to the depth of the Suns at PG during the time). Shawn Marion has had his best years after Kidd left Phoenix with his statistics increasing mostly everywhere with the most considerable difference in rebounds, which decreased nearly by one. Keith Van Horn's worst year in his career came in the year he was with Jason Kidd. These are players who are (or have been) marquee players or have a very important impact on their respective teams yet their seasons with Kidd have been at their statistical worst. I know the players are happy when they play with Kidd, but then again, these are just things to ponder. Another reason I see is that Kidd is so unselfish and doesn't shoot often. Well, I'm pretty sure that he has led the Nets in shot attempts per game since he has been there. He also only averaged one shot less per game than McDyess in his year with him and he averaged more shots per game than Cliff when they played together. He certainly shot more than Nash, but then again I really don't blame him for that, and shot more per game than Marion did as well as Van Horn. Also, this past season he was ranked 36 in assist to turnover ratio and I believe he has always had a not so good assist to turnover ratio. I really don't mean these as slights to Jason Kidd because I do believe he is the best point guard, however, I would like to see better reason given. He doesn't make players better, he makes TEAMS better by distributing points throughout the team evenly. He isn't really unselfish, it's just that so few of his shots go in and he averages a small amount of points compared to others (excluding this past season) that people mistake it for being unselfish when they don't compare shot attempts per game to the other players. This is all just a pet peeve of mine when people use the above reasons to say Kidd is the best PG.
individual scoring statistics are one thing, but what jason kidd brings to a team is wins. after he left dallas the mavs stunk, after he left phoenix they were not in the playoffs until this year, and he took the nets from first to worst his first year there and now they are in the finals again this year, in large part do to kidd. he is arguably the best passing and rebounding PG in the league and gives you 110% every game on both sides of the ball.
To be honest I think its a close race between Gary Payton and Jason Kidd . . . GP has the points, the asists and a more than fair share amount of rebounds . . . also hes a great defender (better than JKidd) . . . and he CAN be a clutch shooter . . . I dont think its a clear cut victory for Kidd . . . but he still prolly has a edge on GP . . . for now
Gary Payton isn't even a top 2 point guard anymore and won't be getting any better because of his age. Marbury is better than GP kidd is still the best PG in the league..he makes his team better..but maybe not certain players stats rise.As he likes to get everyone involved..and not just the fair few players.
I dont care what nobody says Jason Kidd is the best, nobody(back in mississippi) likes to listen to me though, untill last season when he turned a 26 -56 team and sent them to the Finals.. as for Gary Payton he is just a better defender than J-Kidd.. blah when any other PG turns a 26 win team to a NBA Finalist they can be up there.. but as for now.. Jason Kidd is the #1 PG..
hmm. those are really good points.. but yea, he does bring wins. i dont think kidd is meant to have a star player on his team averaging 20ppg. kidd distributes the ball more evenly. maybe it wouldn't be a good thing for him to be with duncan. you'd figure he'd dish it to TD all the time though.. it's like giving the ball to shaq. it'll go in
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">individual scoring statistics are one thing, but what jason kidd brings to a team is wins. after he left dallas the mavs stunk, after he left phoenix they were not in the playoffs until this year, and he took the nets from first to worst his first year there and now they are in the finals again this year, in large part do to kidd. he is arguably the best passing and rebounding PG in the league and gives you 110% every game on both sides of the ball.</div> I also agree with the fact that he brings wins, but if you look closer you can see that the Mavs improved quite a bit the year after getting Kidd, but in his second year their win total went down by 10 and Kidd was traded after 22 games the next season, so I don't know what their record was at the time. When Kidd got traded to the Suns in mid season they were a mess who have been bothered by injuries and coaching changes throughout the season and Kidd was even injured and missed 6 weeks before playing an actual game. When Kidd came back they started playing small ball, which the Suns are very well known for, and started winning. The next season the Suns improved with better players (McDyess, Cliff Robinson), not necessarily because of Kidd. They somewhat struggled in the lockout season by only winning 27 games. The next season, in a regular 82 game season, their win total declined from the last full season, but that team was filled with injuries. In his first year with New Jersey the Nets had their first healthy team in a while and thus success set in and in this, his second year, the teams win total decreased by 3 games also and, as well all know, he is thinking of leaving after this year. Also, the Suns didn't make the playoffs the year after Kidd left because of Kidd. They didn't make the playoffs because they went through guys sitting out with injuries, guying playing with injuries (thus hindering performance), and a coaching change late in the season. I think the whole winning thing is him being in the right place at the right time and he never has had any real playoff success anywhere else he has been but New Jersey.
Good topic, and good points. We all know Jason Kidd is the best PG in the league and no one is trying to argue that, but guys like Van Horn a bad year when Kidd comes is because they got a healthy, more experience KMart, Richard Jefferson, Kerry Kittles back, Todd McCullouch, and Jason Kidd. But the year before they had Marbury, and Martin (for 50 games) and that is it. KVH had to handle more of the scoring load. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">To be honest I think its a close race between Gary Payton and Jason Kidd . . . GP has the points, the asists and a more than fair share amount of rebounds . . . also hes a great defender (better than JKidd) . . . and he CAN be a clutch shooter . . . I dont think its a clear cut victory for Kidd . . . but he still prolly has a edge on GP . . . for now </div> Whoa. GP isn't the 2nd best PG, Marbury is, definitly. And because of age, he won't move back up to number 2. Steve Francis is looking like he may be the 3rd best PG IMO. He now has Yao Ming, and if they make the playoffs he will get the proper amount of respect.
No Im sorry, I give it (2nd) to GP, GP is a totally better defender than both, and can score better than Jkidd, pass and rebound better than Marbz . . . dont be fooled by last years stats . . .
I am not basing it just on stats. I saw all three, GP, Marbs and Franchise alot last season. I think Marbs is the best out of the three. GP may be behind Marbury now, but Francis is arguably 2nd behind Marbury.
You cant really compare a guy who was traded to a guy who has the chemistry . . . GP averaged 20 and 9 last season (full season w/ Sonics) and Im sure he will be back to those numbers next
i still think GP is #2. he knows how to control tempo, makes great decisions on the fast break, plays better defense, has a solid post game, and has a lot less turnovers then most of the other PG's in the league. marbury & francis are more explosive than payton ever was, but i see them having more of a shooting guard mentality.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "shapecity":</div><div class="quote_post">i still think GP is #2. he knows how to control tempo, makes great decisions on the fast break, plays better defense, has a solid post game, and has a lot less turnovers then most of the other PG's in the league. .</div> You aren't just saying this because payton will likely become a laker next season?
no. i can see u saying that too. Payton still ranks in the leagu leaders in assists and points which is more than u can say for most point guards
I'v been a fan of GP for a long time..but this year marbury was better....gary is still a great PG and any team would love to have him running their team
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">marbury & francis are more explosive than payton ever was, but i see them having more of a shooting guard mentality</div> They both have the SGs mentality, Marbury more than Francis. But that doesn't take away from them being great players. Right now, if I am starting a team, I would take Marbury. Yes, age has something to do with it, and I am a little biased. And maybe it is GP having a bad playoff that is sticking in my mind, and Marbury having a great season.
no i'm not being biased because payton might be a laker next season. i still think he is #2 because of the points i listed above. i guess you can say he is more of a "pure" pg than marbury or francis. and i'm definately not taking away anything from either marbury or francis. they are both great players and i would take them over payton if i was starting a franchise as well. they are much younger and are only going to get better. but if i want to win a championship now with a team in need of a pg, i would take kidd and then payton.
I think Francis is gonna have a career year next year and take his place as one of teh top two point guards in the leagu
He will do that next year without question. obviously his team would have been a top seed in the east. dont hold it against him how great the west is. dont forget its only a matter of time before yao ming becomes a dominant plaer. he WILL be better than darko wlil ever be
