<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">People may think I'm crazy, but, I think that Martin is worth this. Think about it, he's only 24 years old, and he's got loads of potential. His numbers just keep getting better and better every year. He does have the potential to be a 20/10 guy year in year out. And to the guy who mentioned his 3/23 game 6, you obviously don't care about the other 15 games they played in the playoffs. He lead his team in scoring throughout the playoffs and had more good performances than bad. He's gonna be worth 87mil over 6 years, and, if they don't keep him, they'll be sorry. Martin is an integeral part to that teams success and without him, they would have gone nowhere the past 2 years. Give him his max contract, it'll be worth it.</div> Is Martin worth more money than Brand? More than Ben Wallace? Nope. Id take either of those guys over Martin, and so would most GMs. Fact is, Martin hasn't shown that he is max worthy. Lets look at what some max players who at the time were considered borderline max: Brian Grant Tom Gugliotta Vin Baker Shawn Kemp I am not saying that Martin will follow their path, but it is a risk maxing out someone who might or might not be max worthy. Especially in the days of the luxury tax. Owners will begin to be more frugal. Its already starting to happen. Martin wont leave NJ. Atlanta? Utah? Those 2 teams will have the most cap room next season. Would Martin really leave for them? Nope. NJ will play hardball, and he will receive somewhere in the 65-70 million/6 year extension(still overpaying for him.........but.......)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, that shoots Martin's thoughts down.</div> Doubt it. I doubt he was expecting NJ to agree to it. Remember, this is negotiation. As a player, you always ask more than what you are worth.
I wouldn't take Brand or Wallace over Martin. He's just as good as Brand on offense and he's not quite as good as Wallace on "D", but, still damn good nonetheless. Thing is, for Wallace, I don't think you can give someone who only defends a max contract. Brand, he probably could get a max contract depending where he goes. I bet there are GMs who would unload that kinda cash. But, I still think Martin could deserve it. He's so versatile, good scorer, good defender, and he's just getting better as the years go by. He'll be worth it soon.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Moo2K4:</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldn't take Brand or Wallace over Martin. He's just as good as Brand on offense and he's not quite as good as Wallace on "D", but, still damn good nonetheless. Thing is, for Wallace, I don't think you can give someone who only defends a max contract. Brand, he probably could get a max contract depending where he goes. I bet there are GMs who would unload that kinda cash. But, I still think Martin could deserve it. He's so versatile, good scorer, good defender, and he's just getting better as the years go by. He'll be worth it soon.</div> You are nuts if you believe Martin is as good as Brand. Brand was named as an all star alternative in the WEST. Martin hasn't been named to the all star team in the EAST. Brand is the better player. He is the superior rebounder, inside scorer, and overall player. He is also a good low post defender. Martin is the better perimeter defender, has better range, and is more versatile in terms of playing more positions. Wallace is better than Martin as well. I am not saying Wallace deserves the max, but he is better than Martin. Wallace impacts a game better defensively than Martin does offensively. Just bec. Martin is young and improving doesn't mean he deserves to be maxed out.
If you ask for 90 mil, then 60 mil will sound real low compared to that, Maybe that is what Kmart's working on.
martin will NEVER be worth 87 million..NEVER...ben wallace is a big reason why pistons are so good defensive..whiuch what makes us so good...brand has been a 20 and 10 guy his whole NBA career..he got a 82 million 6 year contract...which maybe abit much but he deserves big money..martin doesnt...and brand doesn't get to play with kidd either
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You are nuts if you believe Martin is as good as Brand. Brand was named as an all star alternative in the WEST. Martin hasn't been named to the all star team in the EAST. Brand is the better player. He is the superior rebounder, inside scorer, and overall player. He is also a good low post defender. Martin is the better perimeter defender, has better range, and is more versatile in terms of playing more positions. Wallace is better than Martin as well. I am not saying Wallace deserves the max, but he is better than Martin. Wallace impacts a game better defensively than Martin does offensively. Just bec. Martin is young and improving doesn't mean he deserves to be maxed out. </div></div> How am I nuts. Woopteedoo, an All Star, that doesn't mean you're good, it means you're popular. And really, how can you call Brand better??? Because he averages 20 ppg on crappy teams where he is the #1 option. You don't realize that, Kenyon averaged 16 ppg as a #2 option in Jersey. If he was #1, I'm pretty sure that he could score as much if not more than Elton Brand. Brand, if you get him past about 12 ft, his effectiveness drops considerably. Martin on the other hand, has the ability to step out and hit the 18 foot jumper, something that Brand doesn't have. Martin is also a good low post defender. He really did as good a job on Duncan as anyone could have in the finals. Let's see Brand do that good a job on him. Next, how in the hell can you call Wallace better?! The only thing that he is better at than Martin is defense and rebounding. I mean, Wallace couldn't make a free throw for his life, he's a horrible scorer, anything that isn't defense and dunking, he really can't do. Martin, on the other hand, is capable of doing it all. He can defend, score, and he's one of the most explosive players in the game. He's better than Wallace.
I agree, ther's no way K-mart should be bringing in an 87million dollar contract. I admit that he's a good player and one of the team leaders on the court, but when it comes down to the crunch, i just don't think he's worth that kind of cash. I mean look at the playoffs this year, and even throughout the season, he wasn't putting up the numbers to deserve that kind of contract. He' flopped nuts up in the playoffs where the nets needed him most. yaya i know "it was the flu", but the flu doesn't make you shoot 3 for 21, that's just garbage! I think with Zo comin in, and Kidd re-signing K-mart is gonna have it alot easier then he did over the last 2 yrs, so dishing out a huge contract like that isnt' reasonable. It would suck to let em hit the free agency, but i doubt he expects to bring in that contract, so i think he'll sign back for alot less, b/c he knows he's not gonna walk away from a top competitve team when they're so close to the ring!
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> How am I nuts. Woopteedoo, an All Star, that doesn't mean you're good, it means you're popular. And really, how can you call Brand better??? Because he averages 20 ppg on crappy teams where he is the #1 option. You don't realize that, Kenyon averaged 16 ppg as a #2 option in Jersey. If he was #1, I'm pretty sure that he could score as much if not more than Elton Brand. Brand, if you get him past about 12 ft, his effectiveness drops considerably. Martin on the other hand, has the ability to step out and hit the 18 foot jumper, something that Brand doesn't have. Martin is also a good low post defender. He really did as good a job on Duncan as anyone could have in the finals. Let's see Brand do that good a job on him. Next, how in the hell can you call Wallace better?! The only thing that he is better at than Martin is defense and rebounding. I mean, Wallace couldn't make a free throw for his life, he's a horrible scorer, anything that isn't defense and dunking, he really can't do. Martin, on the other hand, is capable of doing it all. He can defend, score, and he's one of the most explosive players in the game. He's better than Wallace.</div> Not the first option? Kidd certainly isn't the first option on offense. Its not Jefferson, nor Kittles..........it is MARTIN! So what if Brand is inconsistant past 12'. Shaq is inconsistant past 12' too. Would you take Wang Zhi Zhi over Shaq because Wang has better range? Would you take Rasheed Wallace over Tim Duncan bec. Rasheed has better range? Elton Brand: Ranks #11 in the NBA in Field-Goal Percentage(0.502) Ranks #4 in the NBA in Blocks Per Game(2.55) Ranks #12 in the NBA in Minutes Per Game(39.6) Ranks #2 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds(283.0) Ranks #1 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per Game(4.6) Ranks #14 in the NBA in Total Rebounds(703.0) Ranks #9 in the NBA in Blocks(158.0) Ranks #5 in the NBA in Double-doubles(44.0) Ranks #8 in the NBA in Triple-doubles(1.0) Ranks #4 in the NBA in Offensive Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(5.5) Ranks #14 in the NBA in Rebounds Per 48 Minutes(13.8) Ranks #12 in the NBA in Blocks Per 48 Minutes(3.09) Ranks #8 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking(24.42) Ranks #10 in the NBA in Efficiency Ranking Per 48 Minutes(29.61) Kenyon Martin: Ranks #16 in the NBA in Rebounds Per Game(8.3) Ranks #16 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds(476.0) Ranks #12 in the NBA in Defensive Rebounds Per Game(6.2) Ranks #19 in the NBA in Double-doubles(24.0) Gee, that was all they had listed for Martin......... Still not convinced: Brand: 39.6 mpg .502 FG % 10.7 rpg 2.5 apg .97 spg 1.92 bpg 19.2 ppg Martin: 34.1 mpg .470 FG% 8.3 rpg 2.4 apg 1.22 spg 1.39 bpg 14.6 ppg Brand on losing teams? Well, he started out in Chicago, which went nowhere. Not his fault. Id like to see Martin try to win with the likes of Mercer, Best, Miller(before he was an All Star). It wouldn't happen. And in LA, that was a nightmare last season. It wasn't his fault. The whole team was trying to pad their stats to increase there payday come FA time. And when the Clippers did add Brand, their win total increased, and they barely missed the playoffs. Now with contract disputes behind them, it should be a better environment. And dont credit NJ's turnaround to Martin. It was Kidd that did it. Suddenly Jefferson and Martin start to play well bec. of Kidd's play. Take Kidd away from NJ, and I question just how effective Martin, and more so Jefferson, really are. Brand is the better player, period. Someone else can defend Wallace, if they'd like........preferably a Piston fan, bec. they know more about his game than most of us.
I'm glad Vintage has been here this whole time. he argues the poitn just as well as me. maybe even better. There's a lot of ground to cover here and I don't have a lot of time (getting ready to go see the BOSS!!) so Im gonna be brief and I'll explain in more detail tomorrow or somehting. There are only two types of playyers who deserve max contract of 70 mil or more. u have to either be a great basketball player who makes your team a winner instead of a loser and leads the team. or u have to be a very exiting basketball player who sells tickets and makes money for the owners making them want to pay him more money. Kmart is neither of these things. He is not the reason the nets have been in the finals. Kidd is and Kmart isnt quite as good as he plays with kidd. 16 and 8 is not max contract numbers and why the hell does anyone think he's going to average 20-12 next year? yea and i just have this GUT feeling that Kedrick Brown is gonna BUST out and score 30 a game!! when has he ever done that? He had some good playoff games but he cant keep it going for a prolonged period of time because hes not doing all the work himself. he cooled off by the finals to an embarassing degree. and I do not care how imressed some of u are by his dunks and pounding his chest. hes not an exiting player. he doesnt sell tickets. New Jersey couldnt even sell out PLAYOFF games this year untill the second round. even then there were some empty seats. and therein is a big reason why the nets arent going to bother signing kmart to a long term max contract. they are STILL a small market franchise. they arent marketable or profitable enough for the owners to spend so much money over a long period of time. they signed kidd cuz they had too and signed zo and deke cuz theyre at the end of their careers. theyre trying to win a title this year or next year because they know its not going to be worht the investment to make them a long term contender. either way Kmart wont get 80 mil or 70 mil or 60 mil from new jersey or any other team. yea lafrenz makes 60 mil. that was a mistake. people arent gonna make the same mistake with kmart. he shouldnt make more money than Jermaine Oneal, Ben Wallace, Elton Brand, Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, or any other all star. including.....thats right.....u guessed it.....ANTOINE WALKER!!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post"> yea lafrenz makes 60 mil. that was a mistake. people arent gonna make the same mistake with kmart. he shouldnt make more money than Jermaine Oneal, Ben Wallace, Elton Brand, Vince Carter, Antawn Jamison, or any other all star. including.....thats right.....u guessed it.....ANTOINE WALKER!!!!</div> Only part I disagree with. Yes, LaFrentz is overpaid. But KMart will get around that, or slightly higher for his new extension. Martin and his agent will use that as a place of a minimum level. Clearly, Martin is more worthy of that salary than LaFrentz(even though I dont believe either of them are). But thats how it is. They base salaries off other salaries. And Martin will be overpaid. But if he signs a $65-70 million/6 year extension, its below JO's, Brand's, Carter's, Jamison's, and most all stars. It will be higher than Wallace's most likely, and somewhere near Brad Miller's. Just the way it works. But its NJ's problem. They are a small market team, and with 4 large salaries(Kidd, Kittles, Mutombo, and Martin), they will have to make choices. Plus extensions for Jefferson, Armstrong(most likely be let go), and Collins are in order as well.
I'm not sure how much ben is getting paid..but he signed a big deal..has like 5 or 6 more years left on it...most of the top players or main starters have big contracts
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting allnet:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not sure how much ben is getting paid..but he signed a big deal..has like 5 or 6 more years left on it...most of the top players or main starters have big contracts</div> Really? The site I use for NBA Salaries is HoopsHype It says Ben Wallace basically has an $18 million/3 year deal left. Its pretty reliable. They have added Campbell to it, but haven't added RIP's extension.
Last year i was told he was on a 6 year deal....and i also thought billups was on a 4 year deal...strange..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting allnet:</div><div class="quote_post">Last year i was told he was on a 6 year deal....and i also thought billups was on a 4 year deal...strange..</div> No..........Billups signed the MLE for a long period of time with Detroit.....I remember that. I dont remember the Wallace one though..........maybe they dont have it........I don't know.
Must of been a 6 year deal for chauncey....i know he somehow came cheap..rip got a contract of 62 million for 7 years this past month...
Of course they will do everything to extend his contract. He's a hard worker and has enough potential to be a very good player in the near future. Still no sign of oldskool in this thread?
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Still no sign of oldskool in this thread?</div> look up.....
