So, you've got a formerly great basketball franchise youre trying to bring back to championship caliber. YOuve made the playoffs two years in a row and you have hands down the best duo in the east. what do you do? GET RID OF YOUR SECOND BEST PLAYER????? I dunno if any of you have seen Walker this preseason but is in the best shape of his career and was about to have a career year for the celtics. Hes been DUNKING in these games. THats right antoine walker: DUNKING. So Danny Ainge goes ahead and gives him away for never-weres like chriss mills and raef lafrenz. ooh raef lafrenz. hes getting paid just as much as walker but he sure as hell isnt going to give you 20 points a game so youd assume hes bringing something else to the table that walker cant give you. Maybe defense? yea right. remember hes a maverick. well hes talll so maybe rebounds? uh uh. Raef Lafrenz has never in his career cracked 8 rebounds a game. Not a good sign when hes replacing a former 20-10 guy who only once in his career has NOT broken 8 rebounds a game. Ok Lefrenz will block some shots, big deal. Now the Celtics have about 100million dollars worth of crappy big men on their roster and only ONE star. NO one wins a title with one star. Not the Lakers, not the bulls, no one. Who is going to bare the load when Pierce is cold now? How can ever have a hot game again now that opposing Ds have NO ONE else to worry about. The Celtics had two scoring options which is already too few now they have Pierce and NOTHING else. Zilch. even JR Bremer now would look like their bonafide second scoring option. this is a total disadster for boston and they will miss the playoffs
Sometimes we overlook the fact that GMs and coaches know things that we don't. That aside, Antoine Walker's productivity has gone down. His shooting % is terrible, and with his ill-advised threes gone, the Celts will probably score just as much as they did with him there.
I like the Mavs and yet even I was surprised by this trade. It just seems so one sided. Unless Jiri turns into an all-star tomorrow morning it looks to me like Boston shot themselves in the foot.
Good call in bringing up Bremer, he had some great scoring games last year and has been solid for the Cavs in the preseason. *Looks at East playoff seeding..not looking good for Celts*
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Certified_Bomb:</div><div class="quote_post">Sometimes we overlook the fact that GMs and coaches know things that we don't. That aside, Antoine Walker's productivity has gone down. His shooting % is terrible, and with his ill-advised threes gone, the Celts will probably score just as much as they did with him there.</div> But you havent seen walker this preseason. He WAS going to have a career year with the celtics make no mistake. With Dallas he isnt even their second best player he wont get the touches he needs to have an all star year so this trade helps neither team in the short run.
The Celtics weren't going to give Antoine the big bucks that he surely would be demanding. They would lose him and get nothing for him down the road. My understanding is that Ainge contacted every team and the best he could come up with is what he got. This trade definitely wasn't made for the present but to open up some room to sign a FA next summer. Welsch may offer something over the next couple of years and the "new guy" that is signed for next season will be a plus. This team wasn't going very far with Walker anyway and as far as him being in the best shape of his life, I heard that about Mo Vaughn when he first signed with the Angels.
Yea but you could see looking at Mo he was still a fat F*k. Walker looked like he had a completely different shaped head and arms and he was dunking on people in the preseason games just like baker has been. When was the last time you remeber walker dunking. He wont get the minutes and touches on Dallas to have a comeback. He wouldve had a great season in Boston. Even if there was no way he was going to stay Ainge shouldve waited at least a few weeks into the season untill everyone saw how much walker had improved
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">When was the last time you remeber walker dunking. </div> Outside the Fleet Center at the local Dunkin' Donuts.......that was when Walker's head still looked like a Giant Munchkin' .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post">But you havent seen walker this preseason. He WAS going to have a career year with the celtics make no mistake. With Dallas he isnt even their second best player he wont get the touches he needs to have an all star year so this trade helps neither team in the short run.</div> You are just wrong on so many levels. #1- LaFrentz doesn't make nearly as much as Walker. Walker makes $14 mill to LaFrentz $8 mill. #2- Losing a little weight doesn't always equate to better play. Walker and his new physique had a poor preseason with the Celtics. He shot 38% from the field and had almost twice as many turnovers as assists. #3- How does someone lose weight in their head????? Did he have a lobotomy? #4- Walker out and out told Ainge that he was leaving if he didn't get an extension. He's the one that laid down the gauntlet. To top it off he goes out over the summer and begs Cuban to trade for him, not once, but twice. He thought he was bigger than the franchise. Well guess what? No one player is bigger than the Boston Celtics. Walker's big head was about ready to float away. He was even quoted in the papers that he had too much power for Ainge. Why the hell would anyone want to root for somebody like that? #5- What in the world does Walkers "touches" and not making the All-star team have to do with the Mavericks success or whether the trade is good for them????? That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen in print. This is what Walker fans can never get through their heads. It's not about the individual. It's not about his stats or how many times he made the All-star team. It's about winning and winning takes a team.
Best trade Boston could of gotten and it just goes to show that no player is bigger than the team. Good on Danny Ainge for having the guts to do it, I think the C's will be better for it in the long run. As for saying it diminishes Boston's chances etc, they are stuck between a rock and a hard place. They're not going to be the best team in the East anytime soon, at least this way if they're not good they'll get a lottery pick and not have Pitino to waste it. I think they'll still make the playoffs. We will also be able to see just how good Paul Pierce is, and if Marcus Banks is the real deal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jaycelt:</div><div class="quote_post">You are just wrong on so many levels. #1- LaFrentz doesn't make nearly as much as Walker. Walker makes $14 mill to LaFrentz $8 mill. #2- Losing a little weight doesn't always equate to better play. Walker and his new physique had a poor preseason with the Celtics. He shot 38% from the field and had almost twice as many turnovers as assists. #3- How does someone lose weight in their head????? Did he have a lobotomy? #4- Walker out and out told Ainge that he was leaving if he didn't get an extension. He's the one that laid down the gauntlet. To top it off he goes out over the summer and begs Cuban to trade for him, not once, but twice. He thought he was bigger than the franchise. Well guess what? No one player is bigger than the Boston Celtics. Walker's big head was about ready to float away. He was even quoted in the papers that he had too much power for Ainge. Why the hell would anyone want to root for somebody like that? #5- What in the world does Walkers "touches" and not making the All-star team have to do with the Mavericks success or whether the trade is good for them????? That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever seen in print. This is what Walker fans can never get through their heads. It's not about the individual. It's not about his stats or how many times he made the All-star team. It's about winning and winning takes a team.</div> But Im right on just as many levels and perhaps more, #1. great, Lafrenz makes less than Walker. he also scores less, gets less assists, has worse D and yes gets less rebounds and keep in mind this is a near 7 foot Center who, like Walker spends his time on the peremiter. If you want a peremeter big man why not just keep the better one in Walker who brings so much more to the table? #2. No but losing a lot of weight sure can when the biggest rag on walker over the years was his physical condition. Sure he wasnt shooting great in the preseason. ANd Pierce wasnt shooting as great as Kedrick Brown or Vin Baker but you dont see us shipping him off. Theres one player on the celtics who you have to worry about making twice as many turnovers as assists in the real season and thats marcus banks. Antoine Walker was showing great signs int he preseason that you cant deny. Like I said, he looked noticably in better shape and had regained his ups and was showing even better moves in the post than he had last year. #3. He had a LOT of lard in his head and upper body last year. He was on his way to a double chin. Now he doesnt. I dont see why thats so hard to fathom. #4. Sorry friend but you cant trust everything you read in the tabloids or on espn. The same sources who told you walker was begging cuban to trade for him were the same sources who said kenyon martin was demanding a trade. Walker wanted to stay in boston and so what if he wanted an extension? He was under contract for this year and if danny ainge had just showed the least bit of patience than he couldve gotten a much better deal for walker once the season started. And even if you dont like Walkers game how can you not root for him after all hes done for the celtics and all the crap hes put up with from the fans and media. People talk like hes Joe Smith and Sam Bowie combined but hes a former 20-10 guy and without him there is no way the celtics make the playoffs the last two years and hes also one of the great character guys and leaders in the locker room. THe players rally around him and any one in the league will tell you he will be an NBA coach some day. #5. *applause* way to completley misunderstand my point. nice try though. Of course Walker doewsnt need to make the all star team to help the mavericks. Hell give them exponentially more versatillity and to some extent will improve their defense. What I meant was that Walker would of course made the all star team in the east if he had stayed in Boston and once he got off to an all star-like start Danny Ainge couldve asked for more in return but he just couldnt wait to ship out our second best player. In Dallas he will help but he wont be pouring in 20+ point per game and everyone will just think that this was the best deal Ainge couldve gotten for Walker when in reality it was just the best deal he could have gotten at the time of the trade. Danny Ainge needs to learn to be patient ot be a suuccesful GM/President.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But Im right on just as many levels and perhaps more, #1. great, Lafrenz makes less than Walker. he also scores less, gets less assists, has worse D and yes gets less rebounds and keep in mind this is a near 7 foot Center who, like Walker spends his time on the peremiter. If you want a peremeter big man why not just keep the better one in Walker who brings so much more to the table?</div> ***Newsflash Walker played 42 minutes a game last year and averaged 7 rebounds. For his career LaFrentz averaged 7 rebounds in 30 minutes. Do you need help with the math? Here's another one. When LaFrentz's coach tells him to play under the basket, unlike the guy he was traded for, he will. We've already seen that in his two short preseason games. And on the few occasions LaFrentz does take an outside shot, he has a 40% chance of making it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">#2. No but losing a lot of weight sure can when the biggest rag on walker over the years was his physical condition. Sure he wasn't shooting great in the preseason. ANd Pierce wasnt shooting as great as Kedrick Brown or Vin Baker but you dont see us shipping him off. </div> ***Baker is a real power forward. He should have a higher fg% than Pierce. Kedrick shot very well in the preseason, but then he got a lot of open shots too. Still , no GM is going to ship off a shooting guard for shooting 46%, which is what Pierce shot in the preseason. Another stupid analogy. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Theres one player on the celtics who you have to worry about making twice as many turnovers as assists in the real season and thats marcus banks. Antoine Walker was showing great signs int he preseason that you cant deny.</div> **I can and I do. It was obvious to me that our offense bogged down when Antoine was on the floor. We weren't running as much, he was again monopolizing the ball, and he was shooting too much too. I wasn't the only one who noticed it. Then he goes and shoots his mouth off about how things really weren't going to be any different and that the ball still had to go through him and Paul and that it was impossible for him to change his game. What you can't deny is that he was undermining the coach and the General Manager by being his same bull headed self, instead of trying to work within the new system. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">#3. He had a LOT of lard in his head and upper body last year. He was on his way to a double chin. Now he doesnt. I dont see why thats so hard to fathom.</div> *** Is English your second language or something? Let me explain something to you, you can lose fat in your face, you can not lose weight in your head unless you have part of your skull removed. In the same vein, you can not have lard in your head. So, yes, when you say Antoine lost weight in his head, it is very hard to fathom. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">#4. Sorry friend but you cant trust everything you read in the tabloids or on espn. The same sources who told you walker was begging cuban to trade for him were the same sources who said kenyon martin was demanding a trade.</div> ***Mark Cuban said Kenyon Martin was demanding a trade? Gee, I missed that. You do know that Mark Cuban made the statement about Walker asking for him to come get him at his press conference introducing Antoine to the Mavericks, don't you? It's not like anyone is trusting a rumor they saw in a magazine. Millions of people saw Cuban saying it. Millions more read his quotes in the Dallas Morning News. Are you saying that Cuban is lying? With Antoine sitting right next to him smiling the whole time? Or are you saying we shouldn't believe it because it would be proof that Antoine was dead serious about not staying in Boston if he didn't get an extension? Open your eyes man! <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Walker wanted to stay in boston and so what if he wanted an extension? He was under contract for this year and if danny ainge had just showed the least bit of patience than he couldve gotten a much better deal for walker once the season started. And even if you dont like Walkers game how can you not root for him after all hes done for the celtics and all the crap hes put up with from the fans and media. People talk like hes Joe Smith and Sam Bowie combined but hes a former 20-10 guy and without him there is no way the celtics make the playoffs the last two years and hes also one of the great character guys and leaders in the locker room. THe players rally around him and any one in the league will tell you he will be an NBA coach some day.</div> ***Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he'll be up for sainthood any day now. In the meantime he was screwing around the TEAM I root for. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">#5. *applause* way to completley misunderstand my point. nice try though. </div> I didn't misunderstand what you wrote. You were more worried about Walkers numbers and Walkers ability to get enough touches in order to get those numbers. In fact, you sounded sort of like Antoine. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Of course Walker doesnt need to make the all star team to help the mavericks. Hell give them exponentially more versatillity and to some extent will improve their defense. </div> If you think that Walker will improve the Mavericks defense you're further gone that I thought. Walker has never been able to guard big power forwards, and last I looked the West was full of them. Even Dallas expects what little defense they had to slip with this trade. They are hoping to make it up in scoring. I think it's a pipe dream on their part, but that's just me. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">What I meant was that Walker would of course made the all star team in the east if he had stayed in Boston and once he got off to an all star-like start Danny Ainge couldve asked for more in return but he just couldnt wait to ship out our second best player. </div> If, if, if. Of course, it also could have gone down just the opposite. Walker could have continued to undermine the system and the coach. He could have continued to spout off in the papers. He could have had his second 38% shooting season in a row. He could have continued to dominate the ball instead of letting the point guards do their job. He could have continued to have as many turnovers as assists, to lead the NBA in T's, to lead the NBA in three point shots by a huge margin. All of which could have led to O'Brien, with Ainge's insistence, finally laying down the law and telling him if he didn't do what he was told he'd be benched. I'm sure GM's would just be linning up to trade with us then. I'd say my scenario is just about as likely as yours.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jaycelt:</div><div class="quote_post">***Newsflash Walker played 42 minutes a game last year and averaged 7 rebounds. For his career LaFrentz averaged 7 rebounds in 30 minutes. Do you need help with the math? Here's another one. When LaFrentz's coach tells him to play under the basket, unlike the guy he was traded for, he will. We've already seen that in his two short preseason games. And on the few occasions LaFrentz does take an outside shot, he has a 40% chance of making it.</div> Do your research friend. Ainge traded an all star powerforward for an underachieving center whos career HIGH in rebounds was less than Walkers career average. Walker had never had less than 8 rebounds a game untill last year and theres no way he wouldve gotten under 8 a game this year if he had stayed with the celtics. And Raef had never shot 40% untill this past season when he played his fewest minutes per game ever. You cant argue he's more valueble to a team than Antoine Walker by himself. The only way this trade can benefit the celtics is if in the the long run Jiri Welsch turns into a solid guard and they draft very wisely next year. The real way the trade may benefit the celtics doesnt even have much to do with what they got in return for walker (which is less than what they would have gotten if they had waited til a few weeks into the season,) is that it gives players like Kedrick Brown the opportunity to get more minutes and touches and shots to develope into good players but you cant just assume that thats going to work if your danny Ainge when walker brings so much to the table. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">***Baker is a real power forward. He should have a higher fg% than Pierce. Kedrick shot very well in the preseason, but then he got a lot of open shots too. Still , no GM is going to ship off a shooting guard for shooting 46%, which is what Pierce shot in the preseason. Another stupid analogy. </div> Its actually a very good analogy. You can't just assume that a mediocre shooting percentage in the preseason is going to translate to a poor one in the reg season especially for a star like Pierce or Walker who are just getting warmed up and trying to avoid injury, and especially when walker was showing dramatic change in his physical appearnace and abilities and playing more in the paint than weve seen in recent years. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">**I can and I do. It was obvious to me that our offense bogged down when Antoine was on the floor. We weren't running as much, he was again monopolizing the ball, and he was shooting too much too. I wasn't the only one who noticed it. Then he goes and shoots his mouth off about how things really weren't going to be any different and that the ball still had to go through him and Paul and that it was impossible for him to change his game. What you can't deny is that he was undermining the coach and the General Manager by being his same bull headed self, instead of trying to work within the new system. </div> I can and I do. Im starting to think you didnt even whatch the preseason. And why shouldnt the ball go through him and Pierce. They still dont have a true point guard. Marcus Banks is NOT ready and Mike James isnt going to get the job done night in and night out. Pierce and Walker have proved that they can run the offense and get key assists. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">*** Is English your second language or something? Let me explain something to you, you can lose fat in your face, you can not lose weight in your head unless you have part of your skull removed. In the same vein, you can not have lard in your head. So, yes, when you say Antoine lost weight in his head, it is very hard to fathom. </div> Face/Head, Pink/Fusia, Soda/Pop, same difference. if youre as smart as you seem to think you are you should know what I was talking about and not act like a picky little biatch. Im not trying to be a jerk because we're rooting for the same team here and trust me I'm very glad to see another Celtics fan with a fair knowledge of the game at the site and I do hope you'll post here frequently but seriously!! Dont take every little word so literally <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">***Mark Cuban said Kenyon Martin was demanding a trade? Gee, I missed that. You do know that Mark Cuban made the statement about Walker asking for him to come get him at his press conference introducing Antoine to the Mavericks, don't you? It's not like anyone is trusting a rumor they saw in a magazine. Millions of people saw Cuban saying it. Millions more read his quotes in the Dallas Morning News. Are you saying that Cuban is lying? With Antoine sitting right next to him smiling the whole time? Or are you saying we shouldn't believe it because it would be proof that Antoine was dead serious about not staying in Boston if he didn't get an extension? Open your eyes man! </div> Im not saying he was lying but you know they'll always exaserbate whatever details they can to make it look like the just made the smartest move in the world. Antoine could have mentioned to Cuban in passing that he has a great team and wouldnt mind working with him someday and all of a sudden its "Antoine BEGGED me to trade for him." Dont believe for a second that antoine flat out wanted OUT of Boston. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">***Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he'll be up for sainthood any day now. In the meantime he was screwing around the TEAM I root for.</div> the hell, you say. dont shrugg it off like Im not saying something valid. Its true. You think they wouldve pulled off the greatest comeback in NBA playoff history if walker hadnt cussed them out in the huddle and acted like the leader he is?? Screwing around the team we root for? get a clue. the Celtics wouldnt have made the playoffs without him the last two years and probably wouldnt have won a game without him in the 5 years prior to that for all we know. You should be greatfull if nothing else. Even if you are glad hes gone. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't misunderstand what you wrote. You were more worried about Walkers numbers and Walkers ability to get enough touches in order to get those numbers. In fact, you sounded sort of like Antoine.</div> Youre relativley new here and Im not trying to talk down to you but let me give you a bit of advice. Dont put words in peoples mouth. I know what I said and I know what I meant and if you misunderstood that its not my fault. You dont get to decide what I was trying to say. What I meant was that Walker doesnt need to get a ton of touches to help dallas. Im sure he woudlnt want to take touches away from dirk and co. because toine just wants to win. But that said, his career stats will take a hit which they would not have taken if had stayed in Boston in which case he would have driven his value up enough to get something better in trade than what the celtics got. Again, to be succesful in his new job Danny Ainge needs to learn to be patient and not just ship off valueble team assets at the first opportunity just cause he doesnt like them. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If you think that Walker will improve the Mavericks defense you're further gone that I thought. Walker has never been able to guard big power forwards, and last I looked the West was full of them. Even Dallas expects what little defense they had to slip with this trade. They are hoping to make it up in scoring. I think it's a pipe dream on their part, but that's just me. </div> If you think he wont improve their D at all youre understanding of the game isnt as fair as I thought. Don Nelson is an offesnive minded coach. jim Obrien is the exact opposite and dont think for a second that it hasnt influenced walkers game on the defensive end. He'll be overpowered by a supersized power forward but its not often he gets outsmarted and even in the west he is quick for a PF even if hes undersized. He loved playing under O'brien and will bring that much more to the table in Dallas because of him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If, if, if. Of course, it also could have gone down just the opposite. Walker could have continued to undermine the system and the coach. He could have continued to spout off in the papers. He could have had his second 38% shooting season in a row. He could have continued to dominate the ball instead of letting the point guards do their job. He could have continued to have as many turnovers as assists, to lead the NBA in T's, to lead the NBA in three point shots by a huge margin. All of which could have led to O'Brien, with Ainge's insistence, finally laying down the law and telling him if he didn't do what he was told he'd be benched. I'm sure GM's would just be linning up to trade with us then. I'd say my scenario is just about as likely as yours.</div> If, if, if, my ass. Look, Walker isnt my favorite player by a long shot. Hes not my favorite celtic. Im not a walker "lover" by any means. I just know basketball and I know that when a 3 time all star who's never shot under 40% (okay, .396 in 01-02, sue me) and has never gotten less than 8 rebounds a game (and only once under 8.5) comes in and shoots .388 and gets 7.2 rebounds per game it means one or all of two things: its a fluke, or he's out of shape, or hes injured and for walker it was a bit of all of them. You saw him in the preseason. He wasnt shooting lights out (neither was Pierce) but you saw he had physical tools he didnt have last year. No denying what good shape he was in. He was faster and with SIGNIFICANTLY better ups (did he even have UPs last year??) and he WAS spending more time in the paint where he had improved slightly on the post moves which were already to quick for most power forwards to stop when he actually took adavtage of them. No way in hell is your scenario more likely than mine. Not a chance. And stop this balony that Jim O'Brien hated Walkers game. He knew that the Celtics won games on defense and three pointers. It was Ainge who wanted to change their whole style of play and it remains to be seen whether they can do that even without Walker. ...and come on, as a celtics fan you should understand. sure Tommy's a homer but he's got a serious case with walker. the refs just dont like him. How can he NOT lead the league in technical fouls when he gets T'd up for LOOKING at a ref. Honest to god just for LOOKING at him. If the refs called Kenyon Martin (who for some reason is allowed about 2 or 3 delay of game penalties to pass every game to make room for his embarrassing hanging and whooping and chest pounding celebrations every time he dunks) like they call walker hed have doubled the record for Ts in a season by now.
