Jalen Rose backing up on the smaller point guards is a good move, he hardly ever misses, its just easy points for him. Yeah ther offense eas crap, but you blame the coach for that not the players. There defence was good but another problem was we didn't have the size to play better defence. Jalen, Vince, Marshall, Bosh that right there is enough for your team to win at least fourty games, but the bench was just a bunch of free agents and washed up players. If you put those for with a better bench the Raptors could be one of the best in the East.
I would only trade vince for somebody that can do equal or more as he can. A player that can drop 30 on any given night, a player that can hit clutch shots, that can find an open man, good court vision. He's been doing good this season and kept his team mates in the game. He's becoming less unselfish and we'll see what Vince, and the other 23 players on shape's list will do.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AirJordan:</div><div class="quote_post">Jalen Rose backing up on the smaller point guards is a good move, he hardly ever misses, its just easy points for him. Yeah ther offense eas crap, but you blame the coach for that not the players. There defence was good but another problem was we didn't have the size to play better defence. Jalen, Vince, Marshall, Bosh that right there is enough for your team to win at least fourty games, but the bench was just a bunch of free agents and washed up players. If you put those for with a better bench the Raptors could be one of the best in the East.</div>I blame the coach AND the players for the weak offense. Why can't we blame the players? Its Jalen Rose who is coming down court as our point guard and jacking up the first shot he sees. I don't think the coach draws up that play very often. Not just Jalen, its the whole team that is not passing the ball efficiently, just standing around waiting for something to happen. To say that the coach is solely responsible for the offense is very ignorant. Players have to be accountable for their decisions on the court as well. Blaming the coach is just providing a scapegoat for the players. Defence has a lot more to do with ability more so than size. You have to admit that Jalen and Vince (who btw are spending the bulk of the time on the court) are very weak defensively and Toronto was playing a man on man defence. It has nothing to do with size. They are just bad defensive players. I'm not gonna hear that the reason they lost is just because of a weak bench. They were lacking a lot of things (other than a weak bench) to be succesful in the league. One being chemistry, which relates directly to their weak offense. Two being their lack of a reliable centre and point guard. Three you can throw in the bench right here, they just suck.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">I blame the coach AND the players for the weak offense. Why can't we blame the players? Its Jalen Rose who is coming down court as our point guard and jacking up the first shot he sees. I don't think the coach draws up that play very often. Not just Jalen, its the whole team that is not passing the ball efficiently, just standing around waiting for something to happen. To say that the coach is solely responsible for the offense is very ignorant. Players have to be accountable for their decisions on the court as well. Blaming the coach is just providing a scapegoat for the players. Defence has a lot more to do with ability more so than size. You have to admit that Jalen and Vince (who btw are spending the bulk of the time on the court) are very weak defensively and Toronto was playing a man on man defence. It has nothing to do with size. They are just bad defensive players. I'm not gonna hear that the reason they lost is just because of a weak bench. They were lacking a lot of things (other than a weak bench) to be succesful in the league. One being chemistry, which relates directly to their weak offense. Two being their lack of a reliable centre and point guard. Three you can throw in the bench right here, they just suck.</div> I agree with your comment on the lack of reliable centre and point guard and a crappy bench, but I do believe the coach is very much responsible for this problem as well. His inability to change his mind on topics ("I wouldn't have done it any other way if I were to repeat it"), I mean Moiso is definitely serviceable, he can create sometimes and can develop well. The coach SHOULD draw up almost all the offensive plays so that the players can get used to them. When u credit the Pistons, u know Larry Brown is a main reason for their play. Dallas, Don Nelson is a great offensive coach, same with Sacramento, Rick Adelman is tremendous and Divac is also a great playmaker. I liked KO initially, but after I realized we were worst offensively with him than Lenny, AND, our defense was NO better than last season, ppl were crediting him way too much. Like where are the plays? I mean if he made offensive plays, i'm sure the players wouldn't have just standed around and watch Carter do everything (or Jalen), it is obvious KO had no offensive sets for them to work on at all, just "pass Vince the ball"... or "pass Jalen, then m/b if Jalen is blocked, pass it to Vince and hopefully he can take on 3 defenders on him". I wish we had Butch Carter back
I'm not saying NOT to blame the coach. That was not my point. My point is that the players are just as responsible for the offence as the coach is. To put the whole blame on the coach is just making more excuses for the players IMO. Like I stated before KO did not draw up plays for Jalen Rose to come down the court and jack a three with someone in his face. He does have a hand in how successful the team does but he is not the sole reason for their lack of offence. The players as well as coaches make the decisions that affect the outcome of games. To blame it on one guy is wrong, its a team game from top to bottom. You bring up Don Nelson and Rick Adelman as examples of coaches who have done well. You have to admit that the talent level on their teams are 2x better than that of Toronto's. Their success does have a lot to do with the players buying into their systems as it does with the coaches drawing up plays.
One of the things though is that KO didn't come in a look at his team and try and play the game towards how his team was. He came in and wanted us to be the Pistons #2, except he also didn't have as good offensive sets as even the Pistons. Seriously, you can blame the players like he said, but in Chicago I used to see ROse moving, last year I saw Carter moving off the ball way more, and more rotation than this year. Look at Milwaukee, Terry Porter came in and geared the team towards a style that fitted the players, he's not going to tell them to be defensive stoppers when Tim Thomas is the SF, and TJ Ford (undersized) is the PG, Redd is a good defender and so is D-Mase, but Joe Smith isn't a dominating post defender, and thats basically what KO did. Wrong players for a defensive style. Jalen Rose made stupid mistakes, but I', pretty sure the ISO with no one moving was KO's set, well their was movement, which was go to the corners and waut for the three. You also see that when Rose and Marshall first came, and KO hadn't shown them our offensive sets, we were scoring like a real team, also when Rod Strickland came and he didn't know the sets, we were getting easy baskets, alley-oops, scoring well, but as soon as they learn, they become different players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">One of the things though is that KO didn't come in a look at his team and try and play the game towards how his team was. He came in and wanted us to be the Pistons #2, except he also didn't have as good offensive sets as even the Pistons. Seriously, you can blame the players like he said, but in Chicago I used to see ROse moving, last year I saw Carter moving off the ball way more, and more rotation than this year. Look at Milwaukee, Terry Porter came in and geared the team towards a style that fitted the players, he's not going to tell them to be defensive stoppers when Tim Thomas is the SF, and TJ Ford (undersized) is the PG, Redd is a good defender and so is D-Mase, but Joe Smith isn't a dominating post defender, and thats basically what KO did. Wrong players for a defensive style. Jalen Rose made stupid mistakes, but I', pretty sure the ISO with no one moving was KO's set, well their was movement, which was go to the corners and waut for the three. You also see that when Rose and Marshall first came, and KO hadn't shown them our offensive sets, we were scoring like a real team, also when Rod Strickland came and he didn't know the sets, we were getting easy baskets, alley-oops, scoring well, but as soon as they learn, they become different players.</div> yes I have noticed that too, u are dead on, i would totally blame KO and lack of a real centre, thats the main issues.
If I was the coach of the Toronto Raptors, I wouldn't trade Vince Carter for anyone in the league right now. He is their franchise and they have built this Toronto Raptors team all on the shoulders of Vinsanity.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting westsidecronicl:</div><div class="quote_post">If I was the coach of the Toronto Raptors, I wouldn't trade Vince Carter for anyone in the league right now. He is their franchise and they have built this Toronto Raptors team all on the shoulders of Vinsanity.</div> Don't you mean GM?
I am a HUGE fan of Vince but i'm also realistic....he has a huge amount of talent and potential but he's probably never going to reach either because he is unwilling or just doesn't want to work at it. So basically we have to take him for what he is....amazing at times and lacklustre the next, i've come to expect that and you're going to be sorely disappointed if you're expecting anything more. saying that, i still think he's still one of the more exciting players in the league and there are only a handful of people i would trade for him, mainly KG, TD, Kobe, Tracy (however, neither Kobe nor Tracy would be able to help the Raptors in its current state anyways) i'm going to continue supporting Vince no matter what but there are just some things that you have to accept
Theres obviously a handful of guys in the NBA that id trade Vince for straight up, JUST because of the injuries. I think based on pure talent, and ability, Carter is definately top 5 in the league, and my fear is when he leaves, and he puts all that together, and becomes an MVP threat on ANOTHER team. You have to consider us Raptors fans are very loyal to Vince (atleast I am), and I want him to be our Franchise player. I think next year IF hes healthy, hes going to establish himself, with some help from Rose, Marshall, Bosh, and future Raptors PG Ben Gordon. That being said, id trade Vince Carter, Morris Peterson and Donyell Marshall for Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, and Maciej Lampe. But, that'd never happen.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">That being said, id trade Vince Carter, Morris Peterson and Donyell Marshall for Shawn Marion, Joe Johnson, Leandro Barbosa, and Maciej Lampe.</div> You'd honestly want that? Come on man, we not THAT BAD!
Are you serious? Marion might be the most underrated player in the league, Joe Johnson is an up and coming star, Leandro Barbosa might someday be a pretty good player, hes shown flashes. As for Maceij Lampe i think that he'll be a real good player, he has a great touch and a nice offensive game already. They're all really young too. I would do that if i was the raptors, but Pheonix wouldn't.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dpballers913:</div><div class="quote_post">Are you serious? Marion might be the most underrated player in the league, Joe Johnson is an up and coming star, Leandro Barbosa might someday be a pretty good player, hes shown flashes. As for Maceij Lampe i think that he'll be a real good player, he has a great touch and a nice offensive game already. They're all really young too. I would do that if i was the raptors, but Pheonix wouldn't.</div> Yep, it'd definately be a great deal for us. Not quite sure why skip said 'would you really want that', because I think it'd put our team over the top. But as I said, it'd NEVER happen. I think Joe Johnson is untouchable to the Suns.
Yea JJ is pretty untouchable, and I think they're liking Lampe too, but Barbosa and Marion are the men Like you said Phoenix wouldn't do it, but I definately would want to.
I'm sorry but i wouldn't trade Vince at all...i believe hes still the most athletic player in the league and can be one of the most dominant if hes motivated enough..thats the key..i think he will be
You r not serious? Lebron James or Manu Ginobili over Vince Carter? VC is an all-star adn has really shown flashes of genius on certain plays. remember this monstruous dunk by VC when he just blows past ginobili on his way to jump over tim duncan. NO doubt he and ginobili arent in the same league.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Victor:</div><div class="quote_post">You r not serious? Lebron James or Manu Ginobili over Vince Carter? VC is an all-star adn has really shown flashes of genius on certain plays. remember this monstruous dunk by VC when he just blows past ginobili on his way to jump over tim duncan. NO doubt he and ginobili arent in the same league.</div> Are you saying it's crazy to think "Lebron over Vince"? If you are, my gosh do I need a laugh.
