Stats, stats, stats. Andrei may have the steal and block stats, but is he really the lock down type of defender ala Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, etc.? He isn't. Steals and blocks are not indicative of a player's full defensive capabilities. Shawn Marion averages just as many steals and more blocks than Ron Artest. Why don't I see people screaming left and right for Marion to be on the all-defensive team? The answer is because Artest is a better lockdown defender. I don't blieve Andrei to be that type of defender. Dexter: TB's comments about no one wanting Andrei's jersey is backing his statement that the NBA is all about politics. If faced with a decision between Kobe and Andrei for the team, the NBA will go with Kobe because Kobe sells jerseys and the more publicity for him the better.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sunsfan1357:</div><div class="quote_post">Stats, stats, stats. Andrei may have the steal and block stats, but is he really the lock down type of defender ala Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, etc.? He isn't. Steals and blocks are not indicative of a player's full defensive capabilities. Shawn Marion averages just as many steals and more blocks than Ron Artest. Why don't I see people screaming left and right for Marion to be on the all-defensive team? The answer is because Artest is a better lockdown defender. I don't blieve Andrei to be that type of defender. </div>Its not all about blocks and steals. The guy changes peoples shots left and right. Utah doesn't get much national coverage if any, so most people don't see what Kirilenko can actually do. People that follow him and study his game, know that he is alot more than blocks and steals
Your first line was basically the point I made, and it goes against Andrei. You don't need to watch a player game in and game out to get a measure of what he is capable of. Like I said, Andrei is not a lockdown defender. He may change shots, but what credible shot blocker doesn't?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sunsfan1357:</div><div class="quote_post">Your first line was basically the point I made, and it goes against Andrei. You don't need to watch a player game in and game out to get a measure of what he is capable of. Like I said, Andrei is not a lockdown defender. He may change shots, but what credible shot blocker doesn't?</div> To say he doesn't deserve to be on the All Defensive team is pure stupidity. No my first line doesn't go against Andrei. I said yeah its not all about Blocks and Steals, because Andrei can do more than that. About the comment you don't need to watch a player to get a measur of what he is capable of. What do you need to do than? Obviously you have to see the player to see what he is capable. As for Utah, besides people that live in Utah or have NBA League Pass, people rarely see them or their players. So, without exposure, of course people aren't going to know what a player can do.
saying stats arent a good indication of their defensive ability is like saying points per game arent a good indication of if they are a good scorer or not andrei is one of the best defenders in the leauge, and he can shut down a lot of people. he DOES do a lot more than just what the stat line says, even though he puts up one hell of a stat line every night. i live in new jersey, so i dont see many of the jazz games. but the ones i do see, like when he is against the sixers, he changes everyone's shot. not just that, but when guards see players like AK47, ben wallace and KG in the lane they are more hesitant to drive on them, causing more low-percentage shots. is he the same type of defender as ron artest? no would i take him when the game was on the line? of course (shawn marion is also a very good defender, there are more people worthy this year. he will most likely make defensive 2nd team IMO)
Reading comprehension is great. I said you don't need to see a player night in and night out to get a measure of their abilities. I have seen Andrei enough to know that he isn't a lockdown player. What other things defensively can Andrei do? Rebound? I'll use previous example of Shawn Marion. Andrei gets 5.3 DEFENSIVE rebounds per game, Marion gets 6.3. Why are Marions votes since his stats are nearly identical to Anrei's? Marion also has better one-on-one defensive capabilities as well. Instead of just saying it's stupid not to have him on the first team, and instead of just saying Andrei can do more than block and steal, why don't you actually give examples why it's stupid and what he does? WhiteManCanJump: I'm not saying block and steal stats are totally irrelevant, but they are overrated in determining defensive abilities. Comparing it to points per game does not work because there are more facets to defending than steals and blocks. In points per game it's straightforward, it shows how efficient a player is in getting he ball int he hole. All steal and block stats say is that a person is good at help side D and playing the passing lanes.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sunsfan1357:</div><div class="quote_post">Reading comprehension is great. I said you don't need to see a player night in and night out to get a measure of their abilities. I have seen Andrei enough to know that he isn't a lockdown player. What other things defensively can Andrei do? Rebound? I'll use previous example of Shawn Marion. Andrei gets 5.3 DEFENSIVE rebounds per game, Marion gets 6.3. Why are Marions votes since his stats are nearly identical to Anrei's? Marion also has better one-on-one defensive capabilities as well. Instead of just saying it's stupid not to have him on the first team, and instead of just saying Andrei can do more than block and steal, why don't you actually give examples why it's stupid and what he does?</div> Well let me see, pretty much everything WhiteMen said was correct. You haven't given any solid examples of why he isn't either. Andrei is alos one of the key contributors as to why other teams don't get boards off the Jazz. If you check the stats, the Jazz are allowing the least amount of rebounds. Andrei is a big reason why they allow the least.
I would like to know what percentage of AK's blocks come off help defense. Also Ive never been big on the steals as a stat. Most steals come off tip balls and balls that land in the players hands. I feel that you can only caculate steals on the smaller gaurds that play passing lanes... (ie. Allen Iverson, Baron Davis, Jason Kidd). I ask you BallerAK, if you had to had someone on the prime player... say Kobe Bryant... I can name 3 players I rather have on him... and for a post defense... I can also name 3-5 players I rather have on the ball than AK. Note: I did put him on my all D team.
...and if you check my edited post you see I responded to WhiteManCanJump's points. What haven't I given examples of? I gave examples of players with similar statistical abilities who don't get as much praise. You want examples of him not being a shut down defender? Glenn Robinson scores 25 points two nights ago against Jazz. Peja scores 37 the game before. Vince scores 30. All are great offensive forwards. If Andrei is the best man defender the Jazz have to offer, why didn't he slow them down and if he wasn't guarding them, why wasn't he guarding them?
I can go with that, but can you name 3-5 ballers that can (both) play the prime player such as a kobe bryant AND guard the post better than Andrei?
Andrei wasnt guarding them, because he is stuck playing a PF position where he is left guarding the likes of Samuel Dalembert or Brad Miller. Maybe if the Jazz had a better Center or another power forward AK47 could slide up into the 3 spot and actually play defense on the guys you named.
KG, Artest, Kenyon, Bo Outlaw (yes Bo Outlaw), Paul Pierce, Bruce Bowen... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Andrei wasnt guarding them, because he is stuck playing a PF position where he is left guarding the likes of Samuel Dalembert or Brad Miller. Maybe if the Jazz had a better Center or another power forward AK47 could slide up into the 3 spot and actually play defense on the guys you named.</div> What's so scary about Dalembert that the Jazz can't afford to make Andrei guard a better player?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sunsfan1357:</div><div class="quote_post">KG, Artest, Kenyon, Bo Outlaw (yes Bo Outlaw), Paul Pierce, Bruce Bowen... What's so scary about Dalembert that the Jazz can't afford to make Andrei guard a better player?</div> well, i agree with KG but im not sure about the others... o well thats your opinion The Jazz won the game versus the sixers, so obviously giving up 25 points to glen robinsion really didnt matter.
Yes, listing players is mostly opinionative. Each to his own I guess. We're not talking wins and losses, we're talking defense so Glenn Robinson scoring 25 does matter.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting WhiteManCanJump:</div><div class="quote_post">I can go with that, but can you name 3-5 ballers that can (both) play the prime player such as a kobe bryant AND guard the post better than Andrei?</div> I meant 3 players on the premiter I rather have defending... Ron Artest, Bruce Bowen, Garnett, Bo Outlaw (thanks Sunsfan), Pierce, Payton, Bryant and there are plenty of better post defenders (considering their size) Garnett, Duncan, Ratlif, Mutombo, Gary Payton (on gaurds), Ben Wallace, Bowen, Artest Ill take Garnett to defend inside and out over Andrie on any player not named Shaq. Edit: I am not down putting him to the point to where I dont think hes good... I did put him on my D-Team list... but I am bringing him down to earth, Ron Artest and Ben Wallace are clearly on another level of this guy.
Artest is the best on the ball defender, Big Ben is the best help defender when it comes to blocks I think that is pretty obvious, but i believe Andrei is very versatile and deserves to be mentioned in the defensive player of the year discussions
Andre is a good help defender. But what he isn't, or at least yet, is a great lockdown defender. Help defenders are needed, no questions about that. Andrei changes shots with his shotblocking. He is also a good (defensive) rebounder. Those things are directly connected to help defense. But what I fail to see from him is the ability to 'lock down' a player. Artest is that type of player. Payton in his primes is that type of player. What seperates the good defenders from the great ones, is their ability to do both. Pippen tortured the Jazz with his help defense in the '98 finals. He was able to roam the passing lanes, slide over and give help, etc. But he could also 'man up' with the best of them. Payton could do both. Kobe can do both. Artest can do both. Andrei can't. Or at least not yet. As far as players Id rather have for 'man to man' defense, id take Kobe, Artest, Bowen, Christie, Garnett, and Posey over Kirilenko. As far as post defense, Id take Duncan, Garnett, O'Neal, and Martin over Kirilenko. As far as help defenders, Id probably take Wallace over Kirilenko. Kirilenko is good. But he hasn't ascertained the title of being a 'great' defender yet. Until he masters the art of man to man defense, I will refrain from calling him a great defender(I am not saying those listed above are all great defenders either). ------- In regards to Sunsfan's comments..... If Kirilenko was a shut down player, what was he doing on Dalemburt? Last time I checked, he was not known for offense. The reason they had him off was to give support for help defense. The Jazz figured(and correctly), that Kirilenko would be more of a factor in providing help, and in man to man defense on Robinson. Robinson would have stilled scored, but kept Kirilenko away from the hoop, thus not allowing him to provide help defense, grab rebounds, block shots, etc. Had Kirilenko been a 'lock down' defender, my guess is that Kirilenko would have been matched up on Robinson, regardless of who would be left to guard Dalemburt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as players Id rather have for 'man to man' defense, id take Kobe, Artest, Bowen, Christie, Garnett, and Posey over Kirilenko.</div> Slipped my mind again and it must be killing <font color="Blue">Wave</font>. But if anyone is underrated as a defender and is never mentioned... its Posey.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Vintage:</div><div class="quote_post"> Sure, Carmelo's is a good player. But so will Darko. And the logic is that you take a 20 ppg 7'0" over a 20 ppg SF if everything is equal. And yes, I am aware of the fact that Darko is nowhere near that currently. </div> Good. You should also be aware that Darko will never be as good as Carmello. I'm convinced that the third pick of the 2003 draft is possibly the best rookie to enter the league since the third pick of 1984.
