<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously I know that Pippen wasn't number 1 scoring option on the Bulls and that's my point - he wasn't good enough to be. I could make the argument that many of his scoring options came from not having the best defender on the other team guarding him, but that's a completely speculative argument. History is what it is, we can't compare two players saying "well, so and so would have had better stats if he wasn't in the shadow of so-and-so". If Pippen wanted to lead a team he could haave gotten a trade, sign with other team, etc... the reality is he was happy playing second fiddle (and practice punching bag) to MJ. It's one of the reasons why I respect Kobe when he says he wants to go on his own.</div> Clyde was on his own for how many years? And what exactly did he win? NADA. Clyde only won a title when he had another legit star on the team. The point is to win championships not to collect individual accolades...why would you want to go on your own when the team your with has the best chance to win a title?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">Read the rest of the discussion above.</div> The only point you "made" above was about Scottie's ability to guard Jordan.....in a non-game situation :thumbsdow . Besides, don't you think that maybe Jordan went a little easy on Scottie to increase his confidence in his defensive prowess? Besides, although Jordan brought his game every night, who do you know that plays their hardest in practice (unless they are a scrub that needs to impress the coach)? The fact that you would use such irrelevant information (intentionally) as the basis for your arguement, shows that your "argument" is lacking sufficient evidence.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">The only point you "made" above was about Scottie's ability to guard Jordan.....in a non-game situation :thumbsdow . Besides, don't you think that maybe Jordan went a little easy on Scottie to increase his confidence in his defensive prowess? Besides, although Jordan brought his game every night, who do you know that plays their hardest in practice (unless they are a scrub that needs to impress the coach)? The fact that you would use such irrelevant information (intentionally) as the basis for your arguement, shows that your "argument" is lacking sufficient evidence.</div> Oh ok,I made no other points about Pip's defense or game in any other way? I must have dreamt typin' that.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting PrimeTime:</div><div class="quote_post">O now Kobe is on. Good. Actually, I beleieve Kobe should still be a bit higher. Does Iverson have three rings on his finger? Scroing titles and that's it for Iverson. He doesn't belong above the like of KG, The Worm, Kobe, Etc. Besides, since when do guys that make their coaches quit belong on the list hgiher than other players who deserve the higher spots? I think it is an overall good list though. C-Webb above KG? Also not true. Just wait like 20 years when they come out with this list again. Kobe will be higher as well as KG, AI, and Reggie. Also, T-Mac below Grant Hill? Grant Hill missed like half of his career because of his dumb ankle. Grant "Emergency Room" Hill...HAHA saw it somewhere else on this site and thought it was hilarious! I also don't believe Duncan should be that high. Only one ring. Kobe? THREE count them! and Kobe is just better...END of STORY! ~out Edit: Mispelled Word</div> Iverson would have three rings if he played with Shaq too. And those three scoring titles(soon to be four) are 3(soon to be four) more than what Kobe has in the same time in the league. Iverson also has scored almost 4000 points more than Kobe in a seven year span. Iverson also has three steals titles. Kobe, if anything, should be lower. The fact that Kobe has been flashy these past three or four years doesn't make him one of the top 50 players ever, sorry. Or top 60 for that matter. And Duncan has two, count em, two rings. Kobe isn't better than Duncan. In fact, that's my biggest problem with the list, that Duncan isn't higher. Probably the fact that he's only played 6 seasons, but Rick Barry had a short career too, and accomplished less. My only corrections I'd make to the list(i have this ish too, so I guess i've had some time to think) are(if i leave out a number, it stays the same): 20. Scottie Pippen 21. Bob Cousy 22. Elvin Hayes 23. David Robinson 24. Dominique Wilkens 25. George Gervin 26. Walt Frazier 27. Patrick Ewing 28. Tim Duncan 31. Dave Cowens 32. George Mikan 33. Clyde Drexler Everyone else should get pushed back. I have some more too, but those were the biggies. I figure people might have something to say about Duncan so high, but remember this: there are only six players ever who have six all-NBA 1st team appearances, two regular season mvp's and one Finals mvp. And Duncan is one of them.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh ok,I made no other points about Pip's defense or game in any other way? I must have dreamt typin' that.</div> What points? All-defensive team? As if that award is completely unbiased .
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">What points? All-defensive team? As if that award is completely unbiased .</div> Oh give me a break brah..so everything Scottie did,in your opinion,means nothing because Clyde edged him in points scored? Yano,it is a team game...5 guys on the floor not one...Just because one dude doesn't jack up 20 shots a game and avg 25+ doesn't make him a less player. Scottie had a better all-around game than Clyde..hell,more than a majority of guys in the L. Scottie could score at will..he could defend 4 postions and defend well..he could run the floor,and run it well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh give me a break brah..so everything Scottie did,in your opinion,means nothing because Clyde edged him in points scored? </div> I never once said that. But you are failing to realize just how good Clyde was, and the fact that he would have owned the league had it not been for MJ. Would Scottie have been top dog if MJ wasn't around? We'll never know, because he was always making statistical sacrifices in an attempt to get the W. You can't honestly believe that in a game where the winner is determined by the final score that players who play defense are the elite ones. I am not saying that Pip wasn't good offensively as well, but his D is that main argument that you are using. This is the reason why Big Ben is not considered a top 10 player (by anyone in their right mind). You cannot say that someone's D makes them better than someone who led their team by scoring. And actually, Clyde's D was pretty good (with the exception of those late fouls he committed in the finals ).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Obviously I know that Pippen wasn't number 1 scoring option on the Bulls and that's my point - he wasn't good enough to be. I could make the argument that many of his scoring options came from not having the best defender on the other team guarding him, but that's a completely speculative argument. History is what it is, we can't compare two players saying "well, so and so would have had better stats if he wasn't in the shadow of so-and-so".</div> Was anyone good enough to be more than a second option with Jordan? Clyde sure as hell wasn't. If he had been playing on the Bulls, chances are that he wouldn't have scored as much as Pippen did, because he wasn't as versatile. And Pippen did score more per game when the other teams defender was guarding him, in '94. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If Pippen wanted to lead a team he could haave gotten a trade, sign with other team, etc... the reality is he was happy playing second fiddle (and practice punching bag) to MJ. It's one of the reasons why I respect Kobe when he says he wants to go on his own.</div> I guess this is where we really differ. I respect someone like Scottie(and Kobe) for playing second fiddle to a great player like Michael or Shaq in order to get the win, more than if they left to be 'the man'. If either Scottie or Kobe did leave their HoF teammate, they wouldn't have won the titles they did. I feel that Kobe wants to stake out on his own because of selfishness: now that he got the rings with Shaq, he wants to put up some big stats and get big bucks rather than help the team remain near the top. And remember, in the context of this argument, Clyde only won when he became that second fiddle, and his offensive stats that year('95) are remarkably similar to Scottie's while Pip was hooping with Mike.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Clyde sure as hell wasn't. If he had been playing on the Bulls, chances are that he wouldn't have scored as much as Pippen did, because he wasn't as versatile.</div> Are you kidding me? Any proof? Offensively KG is more Versatile than Duncan but Duncan generally scores more. Both are first options, and with the exception of this year Duncan has had more help scoring than KG has, yet the less versatile Duncan has scored more. So explain to me why versatility matters?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">I never once said that. But you are failing to realize just how good Clyde was, and the fact that he would have owned the league had it not been for MJ. Would Scottie have been top dog if MJ wasn't around? We'll never know, because he was always making statistical sacrifices in an attempt to get the W. You can't honestly believe that in a game where the winner is determined by the final score that players who play defense are the elite ones. I am not saying that Pip wasn't good offensively as well, but his D is that main argument that you are using. This is the reason why Big Ben is not considered a top 10 player (by anyone in their right mind). You cannot say that someone's D makes them better than someone who led their team by scoring. And actually, Clyde's D was pretty good (with the exception of those late fouls he committed in the finals ).</div> I know exactly how good Glide was,I grew up watchin' him from the time he entered the League until he retired and Clyde would have owned the league? I don't know about that. No I don't believe that play defense are the elite ones,I'm saying that players that put it all together like Pip did and play good in every facet of the game are the elite ones. My main argument is that Pip is better because he had a well rounded game,more so than Clyde. Does defense factor into that? Well yes it does,in a big way. Pippen may have been a tad less than Clyde on the offensive end,but every other aspect is what elevates him over Clyde. If Scottie was purely a defensive whiz we wouldn't be having this discussion,but that's not the case because,like I said I am not using defense as the single measuring stick. Pip's defensive abilities are what seperate him from Clyde in that Pippen was a better defender. And say what you will about the All Defensive Teams bu you and I both know that there is alot of substance to those picks. And as far as the whole Jordan practice scenario...I have read/heard/seen countless reports from the coaches and players on the Chicago Bulls stating that Jordan was absolutely relentless in practice just like he was in games and both he and Scottie have said that those practices elevated them both as players.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">Was anyone good enough to be more than a second option with Jordan? Clyde sure as hell wasn't. If he had been playing on the Bulls, chances are that he wouldn't have scored as much as Pippen did, because he wasn't as versatile. And Pippen did score more per game when the other teams defender was guarding him, in '94. I guess this is where we really differ. I respect someone like Scottie(and Kobe) for playing second fiddle to a great player like Michael or Shaq in order to get the win, more than if they left to be 'the man'. If either Scottie or Kobe did leave their HoF teammate, they wouldn't have won the titles they did. I feel that Kobe wants to stake out on his own because of selfishness: now that he got the rings with Shaq, he wants to put up some big stats and get big bucks rather than help the team remain near the top. And remember, in the context of this argument, Clyde only won when he became that second fiddle, and his offensive stats that year('95) are remarkably similar to Scottie's while Pip was hooping with Mike.</div> Man,you said what I was trying to say..but I failed to do so..LOL
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">If Scottie was purely a defensive whiz we wouldn't be having this discussion,but that's not the case because,like I said I am not using defense as the single measuring stick. Pip's defensive abilities are what seperate him from Clyde in that Pippen was a better defender. And say what you will about the All Defensive Teams bu you and I both know that there is alot of substance to those picks. And as far as the whole Jordan practice scenario...I have read/heard/seen countless reports from the coaches and players on the Chicago Bulls stating that Jordan was absolutely relentless in practice just like he was in games and both he and Scottie have said that those practices elevated them both as players.</div> I dunno, I guess the future attorney in me just likes to see actual facts that are completely unbiased. Your arguement isn't bad, and I have heard those same reports about Jordan in practice, but I am skeptical. You are at a disadvantage because there are fewer defense stats (it would be great if they kept track of individual opponents fg% and whatnot). I think this argument is starting to be more opinion-based than it should be, from both perspectives.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">The only point you "made" above was about Scottie's ability to guard Jordan.....in a non-game situation :thumbsdow . Besides, don't you think that maybe Jordan went a little easy on Scottie to increase his confidence in his defensive prowess?</div> Jordan is the one who said Scottie played great lockup D, not the other way around. Why would Jordan tell the media this after scottie had played most of his career in order to make Pippen have a better self image? He wouldn't. And Scottie also shut down guys from Magic to Malone in Finals situations. Nuf said. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Besides, although Jordan brought his game every night, who do you know that plays their hardest in practice (unless they are a scrub that needs to impress the coach)? The fact that you would use such irrelevant information (intentionally) as the basis for your arguement, shows that your "argument" is lacking sufficient evidence.</div> TB, you're obviously not much of a MJ fan. If you were, you'd know that he often practiced as hard or harder than he played(as Black Widow already pointed out), and that he wasn't a 'scrub'. Jordan would yell at teammates who started to take it easy in practice, because he went all out for the entire time, so that game situations would be easier. And he took that out on Scottie most of all(Mike's words) because Scottie was the closest to him in talent. So the argument is not 'lacking', nor is this information irrelevant as it might be with another player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But you are failing to realize just how good Clyde was</div> No, I'm not(and I doubt Widow is either). I realize Clyde was a great player, better than people give him credit for just because he played in Mike's shadow. But as you said, both he and Scottie played in Mike's shadow, so I think that cancels out. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't honestly believe that in a game where the winner is determined by the final score that players who play defense are the elite ones</div> Are you just being Devil's advocate here? Of course it means that, since as a defensive guru you can shut down other players in key stretches. Of course, point taken about Ben Wallace. But Ben struggles to score 10 ppg, let alone 20, which Pip did with ease. So your analogy doesn't fit. If two players score 20 ppg and come into a matchup, who would win, the one who played D or the one who didn't? That's the situation here. We're comparing Glyde with Scottie Pippen, not Bruce Bowen. So get a hold of yourself. This is a guy who could knock down threes with ease, get to the basket and jam on big guys, pull up for the mid range, post up...the complete package on offense. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You cannot say that someone's D makes them better than someone who led their team by scoring.</div> No, but you can say they're better if they play D and also lead their team in scoring, which Pip could do. He led the team in scoring in '94 and '95, and with Jordan he was a consistent 20 ppg scoring guy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post"> So explain to me why versatility matters?</div> Um, maybe because Jordan and Clyde not only played the same position, but filled the same niche as well, that of highly athletic, slashing shooting guard with outside range and a sweet touch around the basket. Scottie's versatility makes him more compatible with Jordan because he was a guy who played well without the ball, and was a play maker rather than a finisher, which Jordan and Clyde are. Not that Mike and Glide didn't pass - i realize that both are among the best passers ever. But in the scheme of playing, Scottie started plays more than either Clyde or Mike, and they finished plays and fast breaks more than he did. Based on that, Scottie was more compatible with Mike than Clyde would have been, since he and Jordan would have been treading on each others feet a bit. It might have worked out anyway, but not as well as the Scottie-Michael combo.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">Was anyone good enough to be more than a second option with Jordan? Clyde sure as hell wasn't. If he had been playing on the Bulls, chances are that he wouldn't have scored as much as Pippen did, because he wasn't as versatile. And Pippen did score more per game when the other teams defender was guarding him, in '94. I guess this is where we really differ. I respect someone like Scottie(and Kobe) for playing second fiddle to a great player like Michael or Shaq in order to get the win, more than if they left to be 'the man'. If either Scottie or Kobe did leave their HoF teammate, they wouldn't have won the titles they did. I feel that Kobe wants to stake out on his own because of selfishness: now that he got the rings with Shaq, he wants to put up some big stats and get big bucks rather than help the team remain near the top. And remember, in the context of this argument, Clyde only won when he became that second fiddle, and his offensive stats that year('95) are remarkably similar to Scottie's while Pip was hooping with Mike.</div> Yes, we do differ on this. I think great players want to achieve as much as they can and not necessarily out of selfishness or greed, but out of their own competitiveness and their desire to prove themselves. I think Kobe is a great player and wants to shake the whole "can't win without Shaq" argument - how can you fault him for trying? Help the team remain near the top? How about taking another team to the top? Why is one better than the other? Rings matters but so do records - why did MJ strain to get those final decimal points to put himself over Chamberlain at all time ppg leader? Pippen was the epitome of the second fiddle mentality, he's known for that. If that's what you want on your tombstone, fine. And by the way, he is not a 20 ppg player. He's a 16.4 ppg player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">no problem. just a few stats: Scottie Pippen: 16 seasons, 18,804 points, 6085 assists, 7426 rebounds (per game averages of 16.2 points, 5.2 assists, 6.4 rebounds), 7-time All Star (one MVP) 20 triple doubles, etc Clyde Drexler: 15 seasons (one less) 22,195 points, 6125 assists, 6677 rebounds (per game averages of 20.4 points, 5.6 assists, 6.1 rebounds) 9-time All Star, 24 triple doubles, including one that was one assist shy of a quadruple double, etc Stats wise, Pippen is only better in rebounds and marginally. But Clyde was better all around. Now, stats only tell part of the story. There's a huge subjective component in comparing player vs. player, and in my opinion, having seen them both in their prime, Clyde was just a much better player, more rounded and way more exciting to watch. But hey, it's just my opinion. </div> Forgot one thing, the six rings on Pippens fingers. Pippen should be higher on that list if you ask me. It's funny how people don't even believe that he was one of the 50 greatest players of all time. I get tired of hearing things like "well, the best defender on the opposing team always had to cover Jordan" How come then during games that Jordan was injured did Pippen light the damn court up like a Chirstmas tree against the opposing teams best defender? Both he and David Robinson should be higher on that list and a few others as well.
I can't believe this is being talked about. Drexler > Pippen But I will bring some things to the table. Pippen's best season (without MJ in 94, and his 7th year in the league, so he was in his prime) 22 points, 8.7 boards, 5.6 assists, 2.93 steals, .491 FG%, .660 FT% He won All-Star game MVP, but lost to the Knicks in the playoffs. Drexler's best season (87-88, 5th year) 27 points, 6.6 rebounds, 5.8 assists, 2.5 steals, .506 FG%, .811 FT% Drexler also led his team to the Finals as a number one option, something that Pippen could not do when he had the chance. Reminder, I love Scottie more than Clyde, I own a Pippen jersey, but in no way will I put him above Clyde. Pippen to me will forever be the best complimentary player of all time. Look at how Pipp embarrassed himself as a Rocket and then his choke job as a Blazer when the Lakers made a huge run in the 4th quarter to put then in the Finals. I commend you guys for standing by Pipp, but this is where I stand.
Well to me,other than Michael Jordan,Scottie Pippen is the greatest all-around player I've ever seen play the game. Versatility,in my mind,is what makes Pip what he is. But,yano what they say about opinions. :mrgreen: Since we're throwin' out stats let me post these and I'll be done..all that can be said has been said.. lol Pippen- Member of the NBA All-Defensive Team from 1991-2000 Seven-time NBA All Star (1990, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996 and 1997) Made All-NBA seven straight years (1992-1998) On another note,I noticed Clyde's best year was '88 - '89. 27.2ppg,7.9 rpg,5.8apg,.213 stl,54 blk....yet the Trailblazers were 39 - 43,in 5th place and 18 games out of first...now just for the sake of this argument the Blazers had better player's from a scoring standpoint than the Bulls and overall had more 'stars' than the Bulls in Pippen's 'best' solo year in Mike's absence...The Blazer's had Drexler at 27.2ppg,Duckworth at 18.1ppg,Kersey at 17.5ppg,Porter at 17.7 ppg the next two highest scorers clock in at Johnson at 10.0 and Bowie at 8.6...now these player's are alot better than the 'role' players Pip had to work with... Now lets look at Pip's best year he had 22ppg,8.6rpg,5.6apg,211 steals and 58 blocks..and the Bulls finished 55-27 in second place..2 games out of first...Pip's teammates scored like this Grant 15.1ppg,Armstrong 14.8,Kukoc at 10.9 and Kerr at 8.6...The argument here is that Clyde is a better players than Pip yet,Pip on statistically worse team with players that are nothing but glorified role players with no real stars,took his team to a 55 - 27 finish and into the play-offs. Now it stands to reason,with a better team than Scottie fielded..and if indeed Clyde is better that he should have advanced his team farther and did more for his team than Scottie..especially since we are discussing seasons in which both are their teams solo option.... that's it...I've said my say..lol just wanted to point that out.
^^ If that is your debate, then to you must believe Oscar Robertson must be the greatest player who ever lived. Because no one had better all around numbers than him for a season/career. Just going by your debate.
