<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post"> Quote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Originally Posted by cubanballer Yes, we do differ on this. I think great players want to achieve as much as they can and not necessarily out of selfishness or greed, but out of their own competitiveness and their desire to prove themselves. I think Kobe is a great player and wants to shake the whole "can't win without Shaq" argument - how can you fault him for trying? Help the team remain near the top? How about taking another team to the top? Why is one better than the other? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ One is better than the other only if you have a 'team mentality', which I think players are often lacking these days, as evidenced by Kobe's griping. Not that it didn't happen in the past, but it was less acceptable back then.</div> If Kobe leaves the Lakers and goes to the Suns, or the Clippers or the Grizzlies, and lifts them up to the point where they win a championship, everybody will change tunes and say he's an incredible competitor and MJ equal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">You know, I watched each game of both series on television, and have several on tape, but for the life of me, I just can't remember. Geez, it just slipped my mind completely. Lets see, Knicks made it from the East in '94, Orlando in '95, and then...blank. Completely blank. Could someone drop me a lifeline?</div> Funny :thumbsdow . So stop hating on Stock for not having rings and saything that he couldn't lead a team. He just had harder competition than Isiah.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">If Kobe leaves the Lakers and goes to the Suns, or the Clippers or the Grizzlies, and lifts them up to the point where they win a championship, everybody will change tunes and say he's an incredible competitor and MJ equal.</div> I don't know about MJ equal, but I'd put him in the top tier. But seriously, do you really think Kobe can lift a team up by himself, when guys like Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady have been unable to do it? Not even Kevin Garnett has been able to win a title by himself. More importantly, do you really think Kobe is going to leave the Lakers? I don't mind arguing the what-ifs, but in all seriousness, I have to say that Kobe is gonna be a Laker for life, or at least for another decade. If he hasn't won in that time, than maybe he'll pull a Karl Malone, but I really doubt he'll sign with the Suns, or Clippers, or Grizzlies, or Knicks, or whatever other team thinks they'll land him this summer.
You know,I know everyone is past Pip/Glide BUT when MJ retired there are scores of players/coaches/experts and fans that considered Pippen the best player in the world.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">Funny :thumbsdow . So stop hating on Stock for not having rings and saything that he couldn't lead a team. He just had harder competition than Isiah.</div> You're right, I was being funny. But back to business: for those two years Stock had harder competition than Zeke. But what about his other 17 years in the league. Are you gonna say that some foe rose up each year to stop Stock? Because if you are, you're insulting Stock yourself. I don't think Stock should have been expected to beat Jordan and the Bulls. But I do think that at some time, because he was a great player, and played with another great player in Malone, that he should have won a title, be it in '88, '90, '95, or '99. All those times he and Malone were putting up big numbers, but couldn't get the win. When Isiah was winning, Stock was putting up the best numbers of his career, so why couldn't he and Malone beat the guys that Isiah beat in the Finals, Portland and LA? And in '99, he and Malone were coming off two years at the top of the Western Conference. Why didn't they beat the young Spurs and then pummel an underdog Knicks team in the Finals? Bottomline, I don't care why he didn't do it, he just didn't. And I'm not taking that away from the player Stock, who should have been higher on the list, just not necessarily at the expense of Isiah. I am, however, giving Isiah the edge, slight as it might be, for achieving the highest possible goal in sports. A title.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know about MJ equal, but I'd put him in the top tier. But seriously, do you really think Kobe can lift a team up by himself, when guys like Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady have been unable to do it? Not even Kevin Garnett has been able to win a title by himself. More importantly, do you really think Kobe is going to leave the Lakers? I don't mind arguing the what-ifs, but in all seriousness, I have to say that Kobe is gonna be a Laker for life, or at least for another decade. If he hasn't won in that time, than maybe he'll pull a Karl Malone, but I really doubt he'll sign with the Suns, or Clippers, or Grizzlies, or Knicks, or whatever other team thinks they'll land him this summer.</div> No player in the history of the League has ever won a title by himself..be it Wilt,Kareem,MJ,Big O,Bird or Magic....and I highly doubt Kobe can do it..because one,right now he lacks the maturity that a natural born leader has..he lacks that quality that would seperate him from the rest...sure he is a great player..but without another star on the team Kobe by himself would be average at best..teamwise anyway.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">No player in the history of the League has ever won a title by himself..be it Wilt,Kareem,MJ,Big O,Bird or Magic....and I highly doubt Kobe can do it..because one,right now he lacks the maturity that a natural born leader has..he lacks that quality that would seperate him from the rest...sure he is a great player..but without another star on the team Kobe by himself would be average at best..teamwise anyway.</div> My point exactly. And taking it a step further, even with another all-star, I doubt Kobe will carry a team to the promised land. Shaq is not just a superstar, but one of the greatest players ever. Without him, I find it very farfetched that Kobe would win. And if Kobe wasn't blinded by his own arrogance, he's realize that too. Maybe Mitch Kupchak can build a title team around Kobe. But it will take time. Even if Kobe goes his own way, it will take time for any GM to build a team around him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">My point exactly. And taking it a step further, even with another all-star, I doubt Kobe will carry a team to the promised land. Shaq is not just a superstar, but one of the greatest players ever. Without him, I find it very farfetched that Kobe would win. And if Kobe wasn't blinded by his own arrogance, he's realize that too. Maybe Mitch Kupchak can build a title team around Kobe. But it will take time. Even if Kobe goes his own way, it will take time for any GM to build a team around him.</div> Precisely,I think that if Kobe were to ever leave LA for another team and they did build a good team around him where he was the main man..I don't think Kobe could make the necessary sacrifices it would take..I mean I think Kobe would be out for himself more so than the team..that's what sounds like to me anyway when people talk about him leaving.
Yes. I remember last year, when Shaq got hurt. Everyone talked about how it was Kobe's time, and how he'd show the critics he could carry a team by himself. Well, he showed that he can put up big numbers. But when SI and ESPN got all caught up in the numbers, they ignored that fact that the team sucked, and was barely in the playoff picture. Same thing will happen elsewhere, and eventually Kobe won't have his explosive hops or that quick first step, and that time is only 8 or 9 years away. And only then will he realize that he couldn't take on the world by himself, and it'll be too late. And what's gonna happen then? Personally, I think Kobe will only win again if he goes the Drexler route and plays second to Duncan or KG or another big man, just as he did with Shaq on the threepeat teams.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't know about MJ equal, but I'd put him in the top tier. But seriously, do you really think Kobe can lift a team up by himself, when guys like Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and Tracy McGrady have been unable to do it? Not even Kevin Garnett has been able to win a title by himself. More importantly, do you really think Kobe is going to leave the Lakers? I don't mind arguing the what-ifs, but in all seriousness, I have to say that Kobe is gonna be a Laker for life, or at least for another decade. If he hasn't won in that time, than maybe he'll pull a Karl Malone, but I really doubt he'll sign with the Suns, or Clippers, or Grizzlies, or Knicks, or whatever other team thinks they'll land him this summer.</div> No I don't think Kobe can lift a team by himself. I agree no one can, even MJ had plenty of help. I do think that Kobe is a step above Iverson, VC and McGrady (much better defender than all three of them, for one, and their equal in scoring). He does have a leadership problem, but so do them, and frankly, I'm starting to wonder about T-mac's competitive drive. If Kobe teams with a great player that complements his game such as Brand, Gasol or the Matrix and Amare, he'll be able to put that team over the edge and win a couple championships. I think he's very frustrated with the whole Shaq situation and yes, I believe he'll leave the Lakers for one of those teams. I can't believe I'm defending Kobe because I've never much liked the guy, but I have to acknowledge that when he's on, no one touches him. He's on a system he doesn't like because it restricts his natural game. I would like to see if Iverson will put up with a triangle offense. MJ didn't have to run the offense through a dominant scoring big man. Kobe needs more of a run and gun game. I know he balll hogs but honestly, I can understand his frustration. Plenty of knowleadgeable people like Marc Stein or David Aldridge predict that Kobe will leave for a team that will build a system around him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">No I don't think Kobe can lift a team by himself. I agree no one can, even MJ had plenty of help. I do think that Kobe is a step above Iverson, VC and McGrady (much better defender than all three of them, for one, and their equal in scoring). He does have a leadership problem, but so do them, and frankly, I'm starting to wonder about T-mac's competitive drive. If Kobe teams with a great player that complements his game such as Brand, Gasol or the Matrix and Amare, he'll be able to put that team over the edge and win a couple championships. I think he's very frustrated with the whole Shaq situation and yes, I believe he'll leave the Lakers for one of those teams. I'm not alone in that belief. Plenty of knowleadgeable people like Marc Stein or David Aldridge predict that Kobe will leave.</div> I think as far as being a leader on the floor,Iverson is a step above Kobe..AI had some squabbles at the first of his career,but he matured and he just about singlehandedly took his team to the promised land...But the deal with Kobe if he was ever in the situation like MJ was..being the leader and superstar on the floor..I don't think Kobe could do the things Mike did in the team element. Everyone knows Mike was the man but he had no problems dishing off if his shot was stale where as Kobe would just jack bad shots up. Jordan was a true leader and when you're a leader you have to sacrifice to succeed and take the glary and the blame...as of right now I don't see Kobe as being like that even with someone like Pippen on his team. Right now Shaq is so dominate he can make up for alot of Kobe's misgivings..but put Kobe is Shaq's position with someone else I don't think Kobe could do the same things.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">I think as far as being a leader on the floor,Iverson is a step above Kobe..AI had some squabbles at the first of his career,but he matured and he just about singlehandedly took his team to the promised land...But the deal with Kobe if he was ever in the situation like MJ was..being the leader and superstar on the floor..I don't think Kobe could do the things Mike did in the team element. Everyone knows Mike was the man but he had no problems dishing off if his shot was stale where as Kobe would just jack bad shots up. Jordan was a true leader and when you're a leader you have to sacrifice to succeed and take the glary and the blame...as of right now I don't see Kobe as being like that even with someone like Pippen on his team. Right now Shaq is so dominate he can make up for alot of Kobe's misgivings..but put Kobe is Shaq's position with someone else I don't think Kobe could do the same things.</div> Iverson is overrated. Look at his fg%. At the moment I believe it is 39%. That way he can score a lot, that's true but... :thumbsdow
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting BeLikeMike:</div><div class="quote_post">Iverson is overrated. Look at his fg%. At the moment I believe it is 39%. That way he can score a lot, that's true but... :thumbsdow</div> And Kobe is at 42%. Is he overrated as well?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">I think as far as being a leader on the floor,Iverson is a step above Kobe..AI had some squabbles at the first of his career,but he matured and he just about singlehandedly took his team to the promised land...But the deal with Kobe if he was ever in the situation like MJ was..being the leader and superstar on the floor..I don't think Kobe could do the things Mike did in the team element. Everyone knows Mike was the man but he had no problems dishing off if his shot was stale where as Kobe would just jack bad shots up. Jordan was a true leader and when you're a leader you have to sacrifice to succeed and take the glary and the blame...as of right now I don't see Kobe as being like that even with someone like Pippen on his team. Right now Shaq is so dominate he can make up for alot of Kobe's misgivings..but put Kobe is Shaq's position with someone else I don't think Kobe could do the same things.</div> Personally, I think Jordan was a jerk who got off by intimidating everybody in the locker room. If I remember correctly, he wasn't even team captain. He's arrogant, disdainful, demanded to have his way in game situations, contract situations, etc. While he was the absolute best in the game ppl didn't mind, but look at what a disaster that turned out to be with the Wizards. A true leader does not alienate a whole team. As far as AI goes, he jacks up as many ill-advised shots as Kobe, if not more. He also quarrels with coaches and drove Larry Brown out of town. Off the court, "some squabbles" -that's a joke, right? What kind of leader is that?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Personally, I think Jordan was a jerk who got off by intimidating everybody in the locker room. If I remember correctly, he wasn't even team captain. He's arrogant, disdainful, demanded to have his way in game situations, contract situations, etc. While he was the absolute best in the game ppl didn't mind, but look at what a disaster that turned out to be with the Wizards. A true leader does not alienate a whole team. As far as AI goes, he jacks up as many ill-advised shots as Kobe, if not more. He also quarrels with coaches and drove Larry Brown out of town. Off the court, "some squabbles" -that's a joke, right? What kind of leader is that?</div> Kobe is such a leader,right? Why isn't he "leadin" his team now? He's the primary guy now right? Shaq is out and the team is Kobe's hands. Why isn't he showcasin' all those leadership qualities that will lead some other team to the promised land? Since Shaq has been gone the team is starting to sink..just like last year when the team was in Kobe's hands.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Personally, I think Jordan was a jerk who got off by intimidating everybody in the locker room. If I remember correctly, he wasn't even team captain. </div> No, you don't remember correctly. Jordan was always the captain, since about his 2nd or 3rd season. During the first threepeat he was co-captain with Bill Cartwright, and during the 2nd threepeat he was co-captain with Pippen. And he didn't 'get off' by intimidating people. You probably read The Jordan Rules or talked to someone who had, a book which(I've read it) basically paints Jordan in a mostly negative light, although there is some truth to it. But he expected the most from teammates, and was disgusted when he didn't get it from them. He went all out in practice, and didn't understant why his teammates didn't. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He's arrogant, disdainful, demanded to have his way in game situations, contract situations, etc. </div> He didn't 'demand' to have it his way in game situations, the plays were drawn up that way because he was the best clutch shooter on the team. And when the play wasn't drawn up for him, or even when it was, he didn't mind dishing to the open man, as he did with John Paxson in '93 and Steve Kerr in '97. And in terms of contracts, he was underpayed for years, since his roughly 3 million dollar a year contract was created just before a leaguewide contract expansion occured. So Jordan, and anyone knowledgable about the Bulls, realized that for what he had given to the franchise, and for his years of being payed far below market value, he was owed a hefty contract. So please don't make baseless statements. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">While he was the absolute best in the game ppl didn't mind, but look at what a disaster that turned out to be with the Wizards. </div> As for money in Washington, Jordan was payed the veterans' minimum, one year of which he donated to charity. And he basically expected the most from his team just as he had in Chicago, but the players of today were even less prepared than his Bulls' teammates had been. Kwame Brown and others would rather bask in their fame and fortune than work hard, and that wasn't Jordan's problem. The veterans who knew how the system works in the NBA never had a problem with him, guys like Oakley, Bryon Russell and Jerry Stackhouse. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A true leader does not alienate a whole team. As far as AI goes, he jacks up as many ill-advised shots as Kobe, if not more. He also quarrels with coaches and drove Larry Brown out of town. Off the court, "some squabbles" -that's a joke, right? What kind of leader is that?</div> And Kobe doesn't alienate his team? psha! And before you and others get onto the 'Iverson drove away his coach' argument, let me say one name: Del Harris. This is the guy that Kobe drove out of town. So it isn't fair to point fingers at one player to defend another who is just as guilty. I admit Iverson has a lower fg %, but that doesn't take away the fact that his individual accomplishments easily overshadow Kobe's.
Great post Starman. MJ was the type of player who gave his 100% from game 1 off the regular season to the Finals. He never expected anything less from the team. His teammates respected him coz they know he'll lead them to multiple championships. MJ respects the team. He knows when to take charge or when to give other the chance. But usually, the play is "give the ball to Michael and get the hell out of his way!" which is fine coz he usually delivers...but you can't deny the fact that he mad the whole team look good..not just himself...without him, more than half of the team wouldn't even have the chance to prove themselves.
1. Michael Jordan does not walk on water. I know he's your favorite player in your favorite team, but even he has defects. 2. I've never read the book you mention, but in my many years of following basketball, I've read and heard many instances of players, coaches, refs and commentators that while they respect MJ for his achievements on the court, dislike him as a person and as a team leader. Just today there's an article about Brett Favre on ESPN.com that specifically singles out Michael Jordan and Barry Bonds as superstars whose teammates weren't inclined to make sacrifices for. 3. He did held the Bulls ramson in his final seasons requesting one year contracts for a lot of money with very favorable terms for him. That was widely reported at the time, but attributed to David Falk's greed by a fawning press and fans. Even after he retired from the Bulls, before coming to the Wizards, Falk declared that "...He won't come back for the veteran's minimum, he'd play for the Michael Jordan minimum. Every team on the league should chip in two or three million, because that's how much it will mean". Here's a link to that story if you doubr it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketbal...rdan_return_ap/. There are many like it, go back and do the research before calling my point baseless. By the way, he did not only play for the minimum for the Wizards, but for a piece of the team as well. He was a disaster as team president and was shown the door at the end of his second season. 4. I said clearly that Kobe has leadership problems many posts ago. I only answered to ppl who offered AI and other players as examples of leaders, which clearly they are not. Oh and one more thing, if you are comparing Del Harris to Larry Brown, we are in two different planets. Del Harris was clueless. Larry Brown was a great coach with a winning record in Philly who was driven out because of his clashes with Iverson.
Pistol Pete is way to high on the list. I also believe that Dave Bing should be a little high. I defintally don't see Kobe being that high. Grant Hill? He was great when he was playing, but it wasn't for very long. He doesn't deserve to be up there. I also feel that the Glove is just a litte too low. The Armiral should get some more respect also.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Michael Jordan does not walk on water. I know he's your favorite player in your favorite team, but even he has defects. 2. I've never read the book you mention, but in my many years of following basketball, I've read and heard many instances of players, coaches, refs and commentators that while they respect MJ for his achievements on the court, dislike him as a person and as a team leader. Just today there's an article about Brett Favre on ESPN.com that specifically singles out Michael Jordan and Barry Bonds as superstars whose teammates weren't inclined to make sacrifices for. 3. He did held the Bulls ramson in his final seasons requesting one year contracts for a lot of money with very favorable terms for him. That was widely reported at the time, but attributed to David Falk's greed by a fawning press and fans. Even after he retired from the Bulls, before coming to the Wizards, Falk declared that "...He won't come back for the veteran's minimum, he'd play for the Michael Jordan minimum. Every team on the league should chip in two or three million, because that's how much it will mean". Here's a link to that story if you doubr it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketbal...rdan_return_ap/. There are many like it, go back and do the research before calling my point baseless. By the way, he did not only play for the minimum for the Wizards, but for a piece of the team as well. He was a disaster as team president and was shown the door at the end of his second season. 4. I said clearly that Kobe has leadership problems many posts ago. I only answered to ppl who offered AI and other players as examples of leaders, which clearly they are not.</div> I tell ya what,most people that speak out against Mike are opponents who are either jealous or former team mates who couldn't cut the mustard. Michael gave 200% every game and every practice and demanded it of people who were teammates of his,who supposedly wanted to win. That's what a leader is supposed to do...you either work hard and contribute to the overrall team or get the hell out. And thats the way it should be. But I guess since an article was on ESPN it's gospel huh?
