Didn't that issue have a top 75 players' list? Why don't you just name the rest of the 75. Grant Hill at 74? You've gotta be kidding me, he made it on 4 injury-riddled seasons?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">I tell ya what,most people that speak out against Mike are opponents who are either jealous or former team mates who couldn't cut the mustard.</div> You mean like Rip Hamilton?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Trail_Blazer76:</div><div class="quote_post">You mean like Rip Hamilton?</div> i was referring to his days with the Bulls...when he was actually winning. But how could you doubt his worth to the team? His first season he was there everyone was playing better and was on the verge of a playoff spot before his knees gave out..and the team collapsed.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting The Black Widow:</div><div class="quote_post">i was referring to his days with the Bulls...when he was actually winning.</div> So like Randy Brown and Bill Wennington?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting franchise3:</div><div class="quote_post">So like Randy Brown and Bill Wennington?</div> I don't think MJ really cared who it was he got onto. If you were slackin' in practice and just going thru the motions he was gonna get in the ass. I heard 'em say he was all over Bill Cartwright when they got him in the trade that involved Oak and Cartwright was just goin' thru the motions in practice and MJ was all over him to give it his all,even goin' so far as to say the trade was a mistake to give up someone like Oak for someone like Bill. And it worked because Cartwright is said to have got with the program and started practicin and givin' it his all like everyone else.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Michael Jordan does not walk on water. I know he's your favorite player in your favorite team, but even he has defects.</div> I know he doesn't 'walk on water.' I'll acknowledge his faults, but so far you haven't really brought up any. Riding your teammates and demanding that they work hard to the point of angering them isn't a 'fault' for a competitive athlete. If you had brought up his notorious womanizing and his penchant for gambling, I'd have agreed, but that doesn't take away from him as a bball player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">2. I've never read the book you mention, but in my many years of following basketball, I've read and heard many instances of players, coaches, refs and commentators that while they respect MJ for his achievements on the court, dislike him as a person and as a team leader. Just today there's an article about Brett Favre on ESPN.com that specifically singles out Michael Jordan and Barry Bonds as superstars whose teammates weren't inclined to make sacrifices for.</div> Widow addressed this already, so I'll try not to overkill, but it is true that many people from Jordan's past don't like him. But he didn't gain his reputation as the greatest player, at least of this generation, by giving everyone hugs and kisses. But I think more of the respected greats in playing, coaching and refereeing will vouch for Michael than against him as both a player and person. Both Jordan and Bonds were a cut above everyone they played against, and without peers in talent they often felt isolated from their lesserl(in ability) teammates. Both are said to have gotten better with dealing with their teammates as their careers got along, however. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">3. He did held the Bulls ramson in his final seasons requesting one year contracts for a lot of money with very favorable terms for him. That was widely reported at the time, but attributed to David Falk's greed by a fawning press and fans. Even after he retired from the Bulls, before coming to the Wizards, Falk declared that "...He won't come back for the veteran's minimum, he'd play for the Michael Jordan minimum. Every team on the league should chip in two or three million, because that's how much it will mean". Here's a link to that story if you doubr it: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketbal...rdan_return_ap/. There are many like it, go back and do the research before calling my point baseless. By the way, he did not only play for the minimum for the Wizards, but for a piece of the team as well. He was a disaster as team president and was shown the door at the end of his second season.</div> Your point is baseless, especially considering that the 'source' you posted the link for connects to a story before he ever came back, and for his agent to make statements about 'Jordan minimums' and the whole league to contribute were obviously made with the sentiment that Jordan wouldn't come back. In reality, Jordan DID come back, and signed a contract with terms vastly different than what Falk describes in this article, ie the veterans minimum. And he was already the part owner and president of the Wizards before he even planned to come back as a player. He didn't have the notion of playing in mind when he joined the Wizards, he merely thought of it after sitting in on several practices and noticing the culture of losing that pervaded the Wizards team. In fact, in order to play, Jordan had to give up ownership of the team, a situation prohibited of NBA players. He had planned on regaining the ownership after ending his playing stint, but was unable to do so because of his falling-out with Pollin. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">4. I said clearly that Kobe has leadership problems many posts ago. I only answered to ppl who offered AI and other players as examples of leaders, which clearly they are not.</div> Oh, ok, point conceded. But I would still argue that, although neither Kobe nor AI are ideal leaders, AI, perhaps because he's been the franchise player going on 8 years, is better suited to leading his team than is Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh and one more thing, if you are comparing Del Harris to Larry Brown, we are in two different planets. Del Harris was clueless. Larry Brown was a great coach with a winning record in Philly who was driven out because of his clashes with Iverson.</div> Two different planets? Maybe you're on another one, because to base Del Harris' performance as a coach solely on his tenure as Lakers coach, which itself didn't go without bright spots, is to ignore him as a whole. Perhaps you didn't realize that this was the same Harris who took an underdog Rockets squad to the Finals in 1981 as head coach? And other professionals in the field also don't think Harris is clueless, which may be why Don Nelson has had Harris as his top assistant for several seasons now in Dallas. Even Nick Van Exel, who had a famous blowup with Harris in LA, admitted that he was wrong and that at the time he was too young and brash to see the wisdom in Harris' moves. And in LA, Harris took another overachieving squad to the playoffs two years in a row, in both '95 and '96, before he had either Shaq or Kobe to work with. And in his first two seasons with Shaq, O'Neal was injured much of each season.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">If you had brought up his notorious womanizing and his penchant for gambling...he didn't gain his reputation as the greatest player, at least of this generation, by giving everyone hugs and kisses.</div> I don't care about what he does in his private life so I didn't bring that crap up. If you want to chalk up his nastiness to competitiveness fine, many ppl do just that. Other guys are just as competitive and manage to push his teammates without being jerks, e.g. Magic and Duncan. Oh, and Jordan didn't get better, hence the Wizards debacle. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">Your point is baseless, especially considering that the 'source' you posted the link for connects to a story before he ever came back, and for his agent to make statements about 'Jordan minimums' and the whole league to contribute were obviously made with the sentiment that Jordan wouldn't come back.</div> I also said "this is one story I found" and "go back and do the research". The only reason I posted that particular link was that I figured if I just mentioned the whole "two, three million from every team" ppl will think I just made it up. At the time I tought: the gall of this guy! I also remember that MJ was asked about this SI article and he declined comment. He didn't disawow Falk, he declined comment. There are probably other stories about contract demands out there. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting starman85:</div><div class="quote_post">Two different planets? Maybe you're on another one, because to base Del Harris' performance as a coach solely on his tenure as Lakers coach, which itself didn't go without bright spots, is to ignore him as a whole.</div> Nice try. You know damn well than we were talking about Bryant driving Harris out of town that season, not Harris whole career as a coach. You obviously can debate without those kind of tactics. Look, I believe my post started "Personally i believe...". That means is my opinion. I have debated with many ppl before about Jordan, I know it's not the orthodox point of view, so let's just agree to disagree.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">Look, I believe my post started "Personally i believe...". That means is my opinion. I have debated with many ppl before about Jordan, I know it's not the orthodox point of view, so let's just agree to disagree.</div> I'm sorry if you feel I was personally attacking you or anything like that, and I certainly respect the fact that people feel differently about certain players/coaches, etc. I was just trying to put up some friendly debate, so no problem. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't care about what he does in his private life so I didn't bring that crap up. If you want to chalk up his nastiness to competitiveness fine, many ppl do just that. Other guys are just as competitive and manage to push his teammates without being jerks, e.g. Magic and Duncan. Oh, and Jordan didn't get better, hence the Wizards debacle.</div> I've already addressed the Wizards 'debacle,' so I won't get into that. As for other guys, Magic may have come across as the nice guy for much of his career, but could get just as nasty as MJ. He too pushed a coach out of town, and earned Lakers' fans' wrath, getting booed often in the aftermath. I know, Lakers fans booing Magic sounds unbelievable, but it happened in the fall of '81. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I also said "this is one story I found" and "go back and do the research". The only reason I posted that particular link was that I figured if I just mentioned the whole "two, three million from every team" ppl will think I just made it up. At the time I tought: the gall of this guy! I also remember that MJ was asked about this SI article and he declined comment. He didn't disawow Falk, he declined comment. There are probably other stories about contract demands out there.</div> Have you found any other articles? If you have, and they say that Jordan signed for over the vet's minimum, then I take back my comment about baseless arguments. But as far as this article goes, it really does nothing to back your p.o.v. Jordan declining to comment could be just as much him showing respect for a friend of a decade and a half as it could be him silently confirming its truth. I remember the talk about the money from each team when it happened, but Falk wasn't the only guy who said it. Longtime rival Pat Riley said it too, and also said that every team should retire #23 because of MJ's contribution to the game(this from a man who played with West, Baylor and Chamberlain and who coached Kareem and Magic). <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Nice try. You know damn well than we were talking about Bryant driving Harris out of town that season, not Harris whole career as a coach. You obviously can debate without those kind of tactics.</div> Whoa, no need to get upset. I didn't know that you were only referring to this period; all I know is that you called Harris 'clueless,' and I was responding to that claim. Now that I do know what you're referring to, I'll refrain from using any 'tactics' that you found offensive. But I need some clarification from you, so that I don't become an unwitting tactician: Upon what are you basing your claims of cluelessness on the part of Del Harris? That he only made the playoffs each year with Kobe and Shaq? And gave Kobe adequate playing time coming off the bench as a rookie which few coaches would have done, not to mention drawing up a play for a kid fresh out of high school to take a potential game winning shot? That he let Kobe come along at his pace while learning from an all-star caliber shooting guard in the starting lineup, and helped develope Kobe into a 14 ppg scorer coming off the bench as a sixth man in only his second season? I just don't see this cluelessness, and though I don't hold Harris at the same level of coaching as Larry Brown, I hold very few coaches to be at Brown's level, and believe that Harris has shown that he is more than capable of coaching in the NBA, whether it is this year, 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
no man, i didn't take it personally, i just thought we were dragging it for too long. just to clarify, i didn't say he was paid more than the vets minimum. his wizard involvement went past playing and he was initially and thought he would be at the end compensated in other ways, i.e. ownership and control of the team. succintly: del harris was clearly frustrated with the lack of discipline from his players, he couldn't relate to them and failed to reign them in. i remember van excel was "freelancing" all the time. also their defense scheme was terrible, they were one of the last in the league in points allowed. i'm talking about his last year with them (99, wasn't it the lock-out year?), not back when he was coach of the year, before kobe and shaq. part of the knock on harris was that he had so much talent, van excel, kobe, shaq, eddie jones, etc, and he couldn't mesh them into winning a title. maybe in retrospect he was a victim of circumstance, maybe they were just one year away from the championship and phil jackson came into a ready-made situation, as many ppl will say. in contrast, philadelphia this season is playing worse than last season. there was no reason to fire larry brown other than pleasing iverson.
Ok, gotcha. I agree about the inability to mesh talent. Personally, I think that the '97 Lakers(w/ Shaq, Ceballos, Campbell, Jones, Van Exel, young Kobe) was more talented than either the '00 Lakers(Shaq, Kobe, Rice) or the current Lakers(Shaq, Kobe, Karl, Gary). I was under the impression that you said MJ was payed more than the vet's minimum. Sorry bout the misunderstanding. The only reason he expected to gain ownership/control of the team was because he already had that before he gave it up to play. I'd expect to get it back too, since, even though neither year qualified the Wiz for the playoffs, the Wiz were far more successful at the gate than in any previous year since the 70's, purely because of Jordan.
on more thing (i actually jumped out of bed for this) riley retiring #23 was ridiculous. even jordan was uncomfortable. i have heat season tickets, i was there that night, many ppl at the arena thought it was so disrespectful -to mourning- to have the first heat number retired for someone who didn't even play for the heat. and the half bulls, half wizards jersey is hideous.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting cubanballer:</div><div class="quote_post">on more thing (i actually jumped out of bed for this) riley retiring #23 was ridiculous. even jordan was uncomfortable. i have heat season tickets, i was there that night, many ppl at the arena thought it was so disrespectful -to mourning- to have the first heat number retired for someone who didn't even play for the heat. and the half bulls, half wizards jersey is hideous.</div> Agreed.
The one thing I really,really,really take exception to on the NBA's list (other than Bill Walton bein' on it) is the fact thaat the NBA included Maravich in it's list and excluded 'Nique. Now alot of the naysayers say it's because 'Nique was one dimensional..he never led his team to a title...yada yada yada..the fact is Pistol never led his team to anything. He never adhered to the team concept..'Nique on the other hand carried his team...taking them into the play-offs against deeper more established teams..really irks me.
I have to agree, he never really got any recognition. Paul Pierce and KG are examples today of people in the same boat as he was. Having to carry a team, Maravich was great yes, but probably solely for his own statistics. The old Marbury was like him, somewhat of a ballhog and putting up big numbers. The Glove's always been like that. About Bill Walton, he may be an ass, but he was a great player. He had alot of strength and tenacity at his side. Although he wasn't as much a fighter as say Rodman or Barkley, he really put up the numbers on the boards at both ends of the floor.
Domonique Wilkens Do you think it's wrong that Domonique Wilkens was not one of the 50 Greatest players, but Shaq and Barkley were?
Hmmm, I think Magic and Bird should switch spots with each other, I don't think Magic Johnson is better then Larry Bird. I'm not trying to be biased here but I just think Larry was more clutch, I dunno..maybe I havn't seen enough 1980's Lakers games.
And I honestly don't understand Chris Webber, one of the biggest choke artists, and Vince Carter isnt on the list? makes no sense, I honestly think no one that is still presently playing should be on this list until they have played out their career.
I'd have to agree Shaq is the best player of all times.....Also kobe should at least be in the top 5. Allen Iverson is good but not that good
Isn't that list like a year old now? I remember I bought that isssue because I had to spend my whole saturday in detention so I sat there and read almost every page... lol actaully that wasn't so bad I guess.
