Cavaliers @ Bucks (ESPN2) <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post">It's usually the other way around. Wagner hacks his team into a deficit and his teammates help bring the team back up. I wouldn't even call Wagner the fourth best player on the Cavaliers. In a fantasy draft, I'd pick LeBron James, Zydrunas Ilgauskas, Carlos Boozer, Eric Williams, and possibly Jeff McInnis over Dajuan Wagner.</div> Say what, this is not fantasy ball either mate. The Cavs have 2 guys to thank for this winning streak, most of them being without James, that is Boozer and Wagner. Without those 2 we would not have any wins without LeBron. Wagner has been a superstar the last week.
Your right Wagner has been a superstar the past few game and this isnt a fantasy draft. Without Booz and Wag we dont have this winning streak right now. I still say cavs win this one by 8.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James:</div><div class="quote_post">Say what, this is not fantasy ball either mate. The Cavs have 2 guys to thank for this winning streak, most of them being without James, that is Boozer and Wagner. Without those 2 we would not have any wins without LeBron. Wagner has been a superstar the last week.</div> A fantasy draft has to be in fantasy basketball? Mate? Webster.Com: mate - one of a pair: as a : either member of a couple and especially a married couple b : either member of a breeding pair of animals. The Cavaliers winning streak could also be attributed to playing some of the weakest teams in the league, such as Miami and Orlando at home then games against Golden State and Utah. Dajuan Wagner has always been a hacker. There's no way around it. Take the Miami game for example. Wagner played over twenty minutes and scored twenty points. That seems like a decent game, but look at his shooting, 4-11. Wagner also managed to only grab one rebound and dish out no assists. Nice, huh? Ilgauskas scored thirty points, grabbed eleven rebounds, and shot 14-16. LeBron James has twenty-seven points, five rebounds, and four assists. McInnis dished eight assists, and Williams contributed with nine points and seven rebounds. Which of those players would you put Wagner's game over? The game before that Wagner had his "game of the season" when he scored twenty-one points against the Magic. That seems alright as well, but then you have to realize that he shot under fifty percent again and only had one assist. You also have to look at his teammates on that night. Boozer outplayed him with twenty-three points and sixteen rebounds. Ilgauskas outplayed him with eleven points and twelve rebounds. James had sixteen points, five rebounds, three assists, and two blocks. McInnis also added seven assists while Williams added twelve points. Next to those games, Wagner's doesn't seem too spectacular. I don't want to tell you the stats from every game, so I'll just tell you Wagner's stats since he's been back. He's averaging less than ten points per game on thirty-six percent shooting with .9 assists in twenty-two minutes per game. I am not knocking Wagner's game (okay, I am a little); I am just saying his teammates (Boozer, James, Williams, and Ilgauskas) are more talented at this point. Sure, the Cavaliers have been winning games, but don't you think that Ilgauskas' and Boozer's better play has anything to do with that? How about the acquisition of Eric Williams and Jeff McInnis? Infact, the only night Wagner led the team in scoring, they lost. Wagner's strong point is scoring, right? Well, he's currently behind Ilgauskas, James, Boozer, and Williams in scoring and they've all played three times the games he has. Wagner also has a team-low shooting percentage and gets as many assists per game as DeSagana Diop. Don't accuse me of not seeing enough of Wagner either. I've seen more than thirty Dajuan Wagner games (while at the University of Memphis) live and in person. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James:</div><div class="quote_post">They better make it, stats, wins, fan base...hard to go against these 2.</div> Not at all. Allen Iverson is in, and Tracy McGrady is in. Jason Kidd (MVP Candidate), Baron Davis (MVP Candidate), Paul Pierce, Stephon Marbury, and Chauncey Billups are out in the East two. Kidd, Davis, and Pierce or Marbury will be the backups. It's that simple. They have better stats, more wins, and bigger fan bases. It's real easy to go against the two.
Cavaliers @ Bucks (ESPN2) ^^ Still have no clue what point you are trying to make, lol. Not one person is saying he has been out best player for any of those games, he has just stepped up when the game was on the line and hit the most clutch shots out of anybody. A scorer, yes, that is what he does, but easy to knock a young cat that has been injured most of his career so far too, that is kinda like a "kick them when they are down" type of thing. The FG% knock is weak anyway, look at the entire league, where is the shock factor in that?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James:</div><div class="quote_post">^^ Still have no clue what point you are trying to make, lol.</div> Laugh it up, because I don't see where I was unclear. What did you not get? Did anyone else not see my point? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not one person is saying he has been out best player for any of those games, he has just stepped up when the game was on the line and hit the most clutch shots out of anybody.</div> Where did I say that you said he was the best player for those games? I didn't. I said Wagner was not one of the four best players on the Cavaliers, and you dissagreed. Anyway, what do clutch shots have to do with actual talent? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">A scorer, yes, that is what he does, but easy to knock a young cat that has been injured most of his career so far too, that is kinda like a "kick them when they are down" type of thing.</div> Where was I knocking him? I specifically said that I was not knocking him. It's more respect to the rest of the Cavaliers than it is dissrespect for Dajuan Wagner. I don't see where you think I'm kicking him when he's down. His "career" hasn't exactly been plagued with injuries. Afterall, this is his second year. He had a healthy stint with Memphis, in which he proved to be a hacker with no game outside of dribbling and hacking, and he played the majority of the season last year. His sub-par play is not due to injuries. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">The FG% knock is weak anyway, look at the entire league, where is the shock factor in that?</div> Allen Iverson leads the league in scoring and shoots 40%. Tracy McGrady, Peja Stojakovic, and Kevin Garnett follow him in scoring and shoot 42%, 49%, and 50%. I don't see the connection between scoring and bad shooting. I think you've been watching too much Dajuan Wagner and not enough Allen Iverson. And we're not just talking about poor shooting in general here. Wagner has the worst field-goal percentage on the whole Cavaliers team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post">Wagner has the worst field-goal percentage on the whole Cavaliers team.</div> *kick em while he's down* He was INJURED and missed a lot of time, you can't expect someone to come back right away and light it up. Last 5 games Wags has scored 16.2 points a contest, shooting over 41% and the Cavs are 6-2 in their last 8 games. We are talking games without James, Boozer, Battie, and of course Z being inconsistent and a defensive liability as usual. You can call him "hot" if you want, but you can't argue with the results. There is a reason why Z has been on the trading block the last couple years and he sure does not fit into the Cavs long term plans, but Wagner in fact does. He is an impact player, he creates offense, he gets to the lane, he is not afraid of big time game situations. I am the first person to knock the Cavs, but I will give the credit where it is due, wins are wins, and the Cavs have been competitive against elits teams all season long, so just looking at the record is misleading. I'm hungry
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James:</div><div class="quote_post">*kick em while he's down* He was INJURED and missed a lot of time, you can't expect someone to come back right away and light it up.</div> Kick "em" while he's down? Did you even read what I just posted about that? Dajuan Wagner is shooting poorly because he's been injured? Wagner shot an akward forty-percent in college against some of the worst competition in the league. Last year, Wagner barely shot thirty-nine percent. He played badly coming back from injury, but his statistics are not uncharacteristic for him. Are you going to blame his assists, rebounds, steals, and blocks per game on his injury too? If all he does is shoot, and he's in the 36-40% range in that, then I don't see why you think he's a top four Cavalier. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Last 5 games Wags has scored 16.2 points a contest, shooting over 41% and the Cavs are 6-2 in their last 8 games. We are talking games without James, Boozer, Battie, and of course Z being inconsistent and a defensive liability as usual.</div> Forty-one percent in five games is nothing to brag about, 29-70 shooting to be precise. That would be a slump to a player like Donyell Marshall or Kevin Garnett. Also, maintaining a shooting percentage over forty-one games is harder than doing so over fifteen. James, Boozer, and Ilgauskas are far from inconsistant. Every player has off games and every player has hot games, but these guys have kept fairly consistant through the long-run. Also, Dajuan Wagner playing defennse? Give me a break, he averages more turnovers than assists and steals as well as more fouls than rebounds and blocks. I've seen him live over thirty times. I know his game very well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can call him "hot" if you want, but you can't argue with the results. There is a reason why Z has been on the trading block the last couple years and he sure does not fit into the Cavs long term plans, but Wagner in fact does. He is an impact player, he creates offense, he gets to the lane, he is not afraid of big time game situations.</div> Again, read my posts before you pick them apart. I specifically said that the results were due to the team's overrall play, Jeff McInnis and the Celtics, as well as Carlos Boozer more than it has been due to Dajuan Wagner. Just because Ilgauskas is on the 'trading block' he's worse than Wagner? And how do you know who's on the trading block? Does the Cleveland General Manager come up to you and say, "Hey King James, 'Z' is on the trading block."? I'd think if an All-Star Center were on the trading block for a couple of years then he'd be gone by now. Wagner is an impact player? He had all the talent in the world at the University of Memphis and they couldn't make it into the NCAA Tournament. Wagner also had a plethora of talent on the Cavaliers last year, but they finished with the worst record in the league. If by creating offense you mean taking bad shots and dishing out .9 assists per game, then I guess you're right, but that's not my definition. What does not being afraid of big time game situations have to do with anything? If a player is scared to be in the game in the last minutes of the game then he doesn't deserve to be in the league. Saying a player is not afraid of big time game situations is a very generic response that you could say about most starters and immediate backups. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I am the first person to knock the Cavs, but I will give the credit where it is due, wins are wins, and the Cavs have been competitive against elits teams all season long, so just looking at the record is misleading. </div> Sure, you can say you knock the Cavs all you want, but you're off on this one.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post">Sure, you can say you knock the Cavs all you want, but you're off on this one.</div> Look Wave, you have insulted yourself enough here, enough to the point where I don't have any more to say. I did not say that he is better than the top 4 Cavs you mentioned. But Z will be outta here and this team has been banged up with injuries, Wagner is in fact still a rookie who has yet to play 82 games. He has been Mr. Clutch for us leading us to wins late. I am happy, the fans are happy, Silas is happy, and then there is you, nuff said. Let's keep this to the game from now on, everybody.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting King James:</div><div class="quote_post">Look Wave, you have insulted yourself enough here, enough to the point where I don't have any more to say.</div> What? How outrageous. I have come up with a logical response to everything you've had to say and you haven't had anything to say in response to my comments. Who's embarrassing who? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I did not say that he is better than the top 4 Cavs you mentioned.</div> No, but you dissagreed with me. That's the same thing. You're using some crazy semantics to fight this arguement for you. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">But Z will be outta here </div> Last I checked, Zydrunas Ilgauskas was still wearing a Cavaliers uniform. And I still fail to see how this relates to Wagner being a better player. Kobe Bryant is rumoured to be leaving Los Angeles. Does that mean Devean George is better? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Wagner is in fact still a rookie who has yet to play 82 games.</div> He's a second year player; I don't care about games. When judging a player's game you should not just look at his NBA performance. I am looking at NBA, NCAA, and High School as well. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> He has been Mr. Clutch for us leading us to wins late. I am happy, the fans are happy, Silas is happy, and then there is you, nuff said.</div> Dajuan Wagner is Mr.Clutch after hitting a game winner or two? To be clutch you've got to step up for your team in the final minutes night after night over a long period of time. Wagner has yet to done that. You're trying to turn me into the negativity in this thread? Maybe if you would have read my posts you would have known that I was simply defending my point about Wagner not being a top four Cavalier. I was not knocking the Cavaliers, rather I was giving them 'props'. I believe I said that three or four times already. Enough has been said by me, but I'm still waiting for some educated replies by you. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Let's keep this to the game from now on, everybody.</div> How is Wagner's play not relevant to this game? Is Wagner not a part of the Cavaliers team? I gave my prediction and told a poster why I felt his prediction of Wagner carrying the team was crazy. You wanted to challenge that, and I never backed down. How has this not been relevant to the topic at hand?
Wagner has not proven enough to get that kind of respect yet KJ. You say don't "kick 'em while their down". So maybe we shouldn't give them praise "when they are not up". I'll leave it at that since Wave pretty much said all that needs to be said. Bucks win this one at home by 8.
edit All Iam going to say in this arguement is that its to early to knock D. Wags career. He has had alot of unsual injury set backs to start his NBA career. And D. Wag is not a shooter, he is a scorer so you cant over analysis his shooting percentage. Some of the games best scorer shoot horrible % every year. Edit debates over so forget about this
DWags is an awesome player he averaged 42.5 ppg in highschool and he had games where he got over <u>100</u>points like 3 times when he was in Camden, NJ. Like KJ said hes still a rookie he hasnt even played a full NBA season.
L.Sooch. Maybe you know, like, you gotta stop saying, like, the word like you know. It gets, like, annoying, alright? Anyways Wagner is a pretty good scorer and only a scorer. I expect him to average 20+ points and 4+ assists if he plays point guard on the right team.
I love Wagner, I loved watching him last season and I was very disappointed when he got injured. I see this guy as being a great scorer sometime in the league, and I'd be disappointed if anything happened to where he wont be playing next to LeBron. He might not be a true PG, but LeBron is a damn good passer who can play SG, so I think that is a good balance. Wagner is key to their future.
My bad franchise3 ill stop saying <u>like</u> or atleast try. I think that Wagner can establish himself as more than a scorer in this league.
Nah, he's averaging .9 assists in 22 minutes bro. How can you play guard and get the same number of assists per game as DeSagana Diop?
Wave...you said AI is the leading scorer and he shoots 40%. Hey, guess what...Wagner shoots 35. AI has been in the league for longer...and I'm tellin you that Wagner is on a cold streak. Oh, and dude...you're trying to measure Wagner like he's starting. You're trying to make him sound over-rated. You said...where's the talent? Here's the talent...you've obviously had your eyes closed so I'll point it out clearly. Wagner is the type of player you give the ball to at the end of the game. He makes shots that let you WIN. Afterall...that is the point of the game...to WIN. <strike>Think before you speak...</strike> Oh, and Wagner is a SHOOTING GUARD. He is supposed to SHOOT THE BALL. That's why he doesn't have the assists. People give HIM the ball...so he can score. Not the other way around. What...is he just supposed to pass the ball back? Burn
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Burn:</div><div class="quote_post">Wave...you said AI is the leading scorer and he shoots 40%. Hey, guess what...Wagner shoots 35. AI has been in the league for longer...and I'm tellin you that Wagner is on a cold streak.</div> Iverson may shoot 40%, but he also scores about twenty points per game. Wagner has been on a cold streak, huh? I guess he's been on a cold streak for three years then, because last year he shot around 36% and in college against the worst competition he only shot around 40%. When is he going to snap out of this cold streak, when he's 30? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh, and dude...you're trying to measure Wagner like he's starting. You're trying to make him sound over-rated. You said...where's the talent? Here's the talent...you've obviously had your eyes closed so I'll point it out clearly. Wagner is the type of player you give the ball to at the end of the game. He makes shots that let you WIN. Afterall...that is the point of the game...to WIN. </div> Well, "dude", Wagner may have hit two or three buzzer-beaters, but who hasn't. Because he's only useful in the last five minutes of the game he should be considered a top four Cavalier? I think you're missing the point of this arguement. We're not arguing Wagner's potential, and we're not arguing whether or not he's a clutch player. We're arguing whether he's better than Ilgauskas, L.James, E.Williams, McInnis, or Boozer. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"><strike>Think before you speak...</strike></div> First off, personal attacks are not welcome here. Secondly, I think and do research before I post. I suggest you give me a chance to state my case before you proclaim victory. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh, and Wagner is a SHOOTING GUARD. He is supposed to SHOOT THE BALL. That's why he doesn't have the assists. People give HIM the ball...so he can score. Not the other way around. What...is he just supposed to pass the ball back? </div> A player is a player. It doesn't matter if you're a small forward or a shooting guard, you have to have a multi-dimensional game to be a star in the NBA. Dajuan Wagner can shoot, and that's it. No, you're not supposed to get the ball and pass it back. You're supposed to get the ball, look to see if you have an open look, then pass it off to an open teammate if you don't. Wagner is not supposed to take EVERY shot he gets. Most shooting guards average a lot more than 0.9 assists per game. Wagner may be a "SHOOTING" guard; however, he isn't even in the top four on the Cavaliers in scoring. Explain that.
I always associated Wagner and Wade on the same level to be honest. I love Wagner and all but he reminds me a lot of the Hawk's Jason Terry. All he can do is shoot, and once he can't shoot, he has nothing left to offer. You guys need some better on the point. Give him to a team that needs some more offense, when he's healthy and good, so you can get someone good out of him, like say the Pistons?
