The trade that sent AD, JYD, CJ to the Bulls for JRose, D.Marshall, and Lonny Baxter wasnt as good as people would have thought in my opinion. I feel that if we still had our old players, that we would have one more games than we have now. Granted Marshall is good, we were one of the best teams for rebounds in the NBA, and AD was good the previous year at taking over games nearer to the end of the season. I think we gave away more talent than we got back. AD was a monster in the paint, and JYD sparks the team up alot. Do you guys feel the same way?
Actually with AD and Jerome we were still on the bottom of the league in rebounding. We were getting a lot of offensive boards though. I don't think we would have won as many games as we have now. Carter was wearing down and he would have just worn down more. Granted the trade didn't make us that much better, and it also gave up some of our good defenders but I don't think either situation was that great. Lonny was good and the only reason we waived him was because he isn't 6'11. There's no way we gave away more talent, AD couldn't finish baskets that well and monster in the paint?? He's one off the softest big men down low <u>on the offensive</u> end. I don't know how many monsters in the paint shoot 38% and only get 0.53 blocks per game. Jerome was definately a very big loss, but we would be averaging 74 points per game if we had that lineup. Carter and Bosh were the only players in double figures, and Bosh would have had to become the second scorer. With his injuries, Antonio Davis would be our second option, and with Carter out, we'd either have to start Lamond as the go to guy or have AD as that guy. We all know Mo-Pete can't be a got to guy, we've tried that before and he can't create for himself or for others. Overall we definately didn't give up more, but it was kinda of like addition by subtraction, but with more addition. AD was a huge cancer to the team, kinda like how Ricky Davis was for Cleveland. He was constantly complaining and if we didn't get rid of him he wouldve ripped the team apart. Think about it, Marshall is averaging 17, Rose 15, and Bosh 11 and we're still averaging only 80 sumthin points per game. Imagine it with AD averaging 8-9, Jerome averaging 7-9 and Bosh lets say 13 and lets say Carter about 26. Thats only 57 points, and can a bench of Milt Palacio, Micheal Curry, Lamond Murray, Chris Jefferies, and Mosiso are struggling to produce 19 points a game right now, not to talk of them getting 27 which would match out current team ppg average.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">The trade that sent AD, JYD, CJ to the Bulls for JRose, D.Marshall, and Lonny Baxter wasnt as good as people would have thought in my opinion. I feel that if we still had our old players, that we would have one more games than we have now. Granted Marshall is good, we were one of the best teams for rebounds in the NBA, and AD was good the previous year at taking over games nearer to the end of the season. I think we gave away more talent than we got back. AD was a monster in the paint, and JYD sparks the team up alot. Do you guys feel the same way?</div> I doubt that seriously Much like OG, had those two been in and Carter went down, the Raptors would have been in even more trouble. Prior to the trade the Raps were the Raptrs. They had no "O". With that same cast and a VC injury, that team would have been hard pressed to drop in 50 a game I also think giving up Lonny Baxter for nothing was stupid. I'm sure Archibald is a lovely person, but the NBA is a league of athletes first and players second. It doesn't matter how well you understand the game, if you can't compete athletically, you're in trouble Right now I think the bigger problem with this franchise is its management. When you look at the low priced and effective talent that GG has let go, you need to start asking questions Beyond this the Raps may have the worst scouting in the league, particularly in Europe. I'm also not sure of KO. It may be that he is best suited as an assistant
I don't really think you have improved as a team. You have someone who takes shots that NVE, Walker, KVH and Stackhouse do, and that's never a good thing unless that person is NVE. Donyell Marshall was a great gain though, he plays so hard and rebounds really well for your team. You're lucky to have the clutch combination of him and Alvin Williams along with Bosh to compensate for VC's absences due to injury. Overall though, yeah you didn't really lose big time, but you didn't gain big time either. If you kept Jerome and got Donyell as well, that would've been much better for you guys.
The Raps didn't gain alot but they didn't lose anything big. Jalen isn't a bad player but isn't a good one either.The Raps wanted more scorers.So they got Donyell and Jalen.I don't think the Raps wanted a poor shooting player.But Jalen is shooting very poorly this season. 38% field goal percentage?He does give some assist but he also has 3 turnovers per game.In my opinion he wasn't a great addition.And he has a big contract. Donyell was a great gain for the Raps.Has a great scoring ability.What the Raps wanted.He has helped the Raps alot in Vince's absence. Baxter,he is a great young player.Don't know why they waived him instead of Archibald.He had some potential to be a good player. Davis was getting old and complainning that he didn't want to play in Toronto.He was a really bad player shooting almost 40%.Thats really bad for a post player.And wasn't a great blocker for a Big man.It was a good Idea of trading him. JYD was a good player.He a spark of the bench good shooter with 49%.Good rebounder.It would have been nice to have kept him. I agree with Magic Johnson.It would have been better to have kept Jerome and got Donyell.But i guess the Bulls wouldn't accept Antonio Davis for Donyell.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting intrepid1983:</div><div class="quote_post">The trade that sent AD, JYD, CJ to the Bulls for JRose, D.Marshall, and Lonny Baxter wasnt as good as people would have thought in my opinion. I feel that if we still had our old players, that we would have one more games than we have now. Granted Marshall is good, we were one of the best teams for rebounds in the NBA, and AD was good the previous year at taking over games nearer to the end of the season. I think we gave away more talent than we got back. AD was a monster in the paint, and JYD sparks the team up alot. Do you guys feel the same way?</div> Just like most ppl on this thread, I'm gonna have to disagree w/ you too. Although we aren't a great team right now, we had no other choice but to do this trade. Our offensive prior to the trade was embarassing so we had to solve that problem before we were to set an nba record for lowest total points in a season, even if that meant sacrificing size. The problem was that we were already a small team to begin with so the trade just made things worse for us. We all expected this to be the first of more trades to come (mainly acquiring a true center) but nothing happened and that's been the main issue here. And I don't blame GG either, big men in this league are in high demand and it's extremely hard to get one when we don't have any great talent to give in return. The trade was a great first step so we shouldn't ever regret doing it. As for giving up more talent than we got in return, I would have to strongly disagree with you on that. Antonio Davis is a below-average scorer for a big man, is getting old, and was becoming a liability because he had no passion playing in toronto. IMO he was being very unprofessional so we had no other choice but to trade him. As for Jerome Williams, we didn't want to see him leave because we all loved him here but let's face it, he isn't all that talented. As one reporter put it, he's an "overpaid cheerleader", which I hate to admit is true. I haven't seen much of CJ so I can't comment on him. As for Marshall, well we all can't deny his importance to our team so I'll leave it at that. Rose is a great scorer (not a great shooter as I hoped he'd be) and my only complaint is that he gets paid WAY too much. Baxter gave us a much needed big man underneath (I seriously think we should've waived either Archibald or Bradley instead of him). So we definately did not give up more talent than we gained.
as of now the trade ddint do much. we didnt get better or worse. i think that we should have just made a follow up deal getting a big man. otherwise, the deal didnt help much....but it wasnt a bad thing either,.
Yea I heard Grunwald say on some interiew that the gave up Lonny because he was the shortest out of our big men , I don't know if Grunwald is stupid or just retarded. Archibald has no potential, can't finish, isn't that good a rebounder or blocker, and all he can do is hack an annoy other players. He's not even playing anymore. Has GG ever heard of Elton Brand, or Kenny Thomas, Baxter with a little lost weigth could be a poor man's version of one of those guys. He was very good in college, but Arch in college was nothing. Baxter had potential, and Arch I hope will be let go next season along with Michael Curry (make him an assistant coach), Milt Palacio, Janero Pargo, Grunwald, and KO (make him an assistant too). Also try and trade Lamond, and also Rose for a real PG or a decent big man. I hope Baxter becomes a good rotation player on a team so that Grunwald can realize how stupid he his. Plans: Draft a PG that can pass, and is quick so he can get in the lane and create for others (Felton, Telfair, Gordon etc). Sign Ethan Thomas, trade Jalen and get a veteran backup PG to assist our rookie PG. Starting Lineup: PG - Rookie SG - Carter SF - Marshall PF - Bosh C - Ethan Thomas Bench: Veteran PG, Glover, Moiso, Other to look for: Adonal Foyle, Gadzuric or Mark Blount even Steven Hunter, Maybe Marquis Daniels or Rodney White (prolly not), Richie Frahm, Arroyo maybe then we can draft someone else, but would he want back??
we would of been way worse if we still had ad jyd and that other guy (not gonna bother saying his name).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting K Bomber:</div><div class="quote_post"> Right now I think the bigger problem with this franchise is its management. When you look at the low priced and effective talent that GG has let go, you need to start asking questions Beyond this the Raps may have the worst scouting in the league, particularly in Europe. I'm also not sure of KO. It may be that he is best suited as an assistant</div> I agree with you regarding GG. It just kills me whenever I think about how he got rid of Arroyo and Skinner. We'd be in a much better position right now if only we kept those two. But on the flip side, he made a lot of good trades in the past and so far this season he's been doing pretty good in my books (selecting CB4 in the draft & the trade w/ chicago). He hasn't been perfect but I don't think getting rid of GG would solve anything. As for KO, I'd have to disagree with you on that one. I think he's doing a great job coaching the raptors. He's tough, determined, and is a major workaholic which are all perfect attributes to being a great coach. Prior to the bulls trade, KO kept us around the .500 mark when I honestly thought we'd be in Orlando/Chicago/Atlanta territory. Even after the changes to our line-up and our many injury woes, he still manages to keep us in the playoffs race. I can guarantee that if Lenny Wilkens was still our coach, we'd be in a much worse position than we are right now. I don't think that KO's perfect because I do question some of his decisions (then again what do I know, I'm just a fan) but I still believe he's the right man for the job.
I don't give him props for drafting Bosh, how could he go wrong when we had the 4th pick in one of the deepest drafts in the last few years, and its not like it would havebeen bad if we got Wade, Hinrich or Ford either.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't give him props for drafting Bosh, how could he go wrong when we had the 4th pick in one of the deepest drafts in the last few years, and its not like it would havebeen bad if we got Wade, Hinrich or Ford either.</div> I give GG props because Bosh was on the bottom of most teams list in the 2003 draft, so everyone was very doubtful of his decision (myself included). He proved us all wrong as we now see the impact Bosh has made and how he could be the type of player we could build our team around. Don't get me wrong though, Wade & Hinrich would've been great additions to the raptors (I'm a little skeptical of Ford, but I could be wrong) but GG realized that we need a stronger front court more than anything so Bosh was the perfect fit. Especially with the disgruntled Davis hindering our team, we needed someone else to become a presence in the paint.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RipHamFan:</div><div class="quote_post">I give GG props because Bosh was on the bottom of most teams list in the 2003 draft, so everyone was very doubtful of his decision (myself included). He proved us all wrong as we now see the impact Bosh has made and how he could be the type of player we could build our team around. Don't get me wrong though, Wade & Hinrich would've been great additions to the raptors (I'm a little skeptical of Ford, but I could be wrong) but GG realized that we need a stronger front court more than anything so Bosh was the perfect fit. Especially with the disgruntled Davis hindering our team, we needed someone else to become a presence in the paint.</div> I hate to tell you this man, but you could have used the ESPN Insider to draft last year. You almost couldn't go wrong 1-10. Bosh was at the top of almost all lists and was considered pretty much the consensus pick at 4 Look at the guys GG has let get away in Chauncey Billups Carlos Arroyo Brian Skinner Rafer Alston Corliss Williamson Voshon Lenard Just in that group you have three guys who are better than anything the Raps currently have at the PG position -- and two of them at an undervalued number against the cap (Arroyo & Alston). Organizations that lose out or can't identify those types of bargains are the ones that continually struggle -- look at Detroit who has traditionally built on value buys in player personnel GG is a very nice man, but if your scouting is limited to the latest edition of SI, you are in trouble. The Raptors are one of the worst scouting teams in the league and their European scouting is hilarious. Remember Alex Radojevic? Remember him at 12 ahead of Corey Magette, Ron Artest, James Posey, Kenny Thomas, Andrei Kirilenko, Dion Glover (although we thankfully got him later on ) and Jumaine Jones -- that's iffy personnel assessment, because I might be tempted to take any one of those guys right about now Do you remember him bringing in Hakeem Olajuwon when everyone knew he was DONE? GG is a capologist, not a great evaluator of talent. He got lucky in his first couple of deals, that's all. I personally want his head on a platter...............
One last thing about GG drafting Bosh If Pavel Podkozline hadn't dropped out of the draft, he would be your starting centre today and that guy is the biggest piece of Euro-trash to ever step on the hardwood There's your genius GM............
I have always been the biggest GG supporter out there because I tend to look at what he did right rather than what he has done wrong. I hate to say it but K Bomber is right. GG did give away a ton of talent, maybe more than he brought in....I don't think the Raptors should let him go totally (keep him as an advisor for the cap or something) but maybe someone else should step up and take the GM position.
When I first heard last year that we might have take Pavel, a tear came to my eye. I knew we had probably never scouted him before and if we took him he would probably be a non-factor for us and just another Radojevic. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I give GG props because Bosh was on the bottom of most teams list in the 2003 draft, so everyone was very doubtful of his decision (myself included). He proved us all wrong as we now see the impact Bosh has made and how he could be the type of player we could build our team around. Don't get me wrong though, Wade & Hinrich would've been great additions to the raptors (I'm a little skeptical of Ford, but I could be wrong) but GG realized that we need a stronger front court more than anything so Bosh was the perfect fit. Especially with the disgruntled Davis hindering our team, we needed someone else to become a presence in the paint.</div> Actually like KBomber said, everyone had Bosh going at 4th to the Raptors, it wasn't really a hard choice, any of us could ahve been the GM that day and it wouldn't take much to know to pick Bosh. Bosh was not really on the bottom of teams list, people said he would take maybe a year or two to develop, but that wasn't going to hinder them from signing him. If we had taken Wade, I'd think Miami would have signed him with their lack of shot blocking, the Bulls wouldn't though, but Milwaukee would since they didn't have Skinner and Smith then.
K Bomber, I agree with you 100% that GG has done very questionable things in the past. One of the worst things he's ever done that you didn't mention was the $6 million contract he gave to Michael Stewart. But my main point was about Chris Bosh. Okay, I might have been out of line by saying most teams put him on the BOTTOM of their lists, but many teams were surprised that he was the fourth pick. I'm not sure about the ESPN Insider but I remember reading scouting reports from GMs across the league who showed very little interest in CB. More teams were interested in guys like Wade, Hayes, and Hinrich. But then again, I could be wrong. Maybe that report was outdated at the time. I'm not saying that GG is the best man for the job. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't automatically blame the GM or blame the coaches every time a team is doing poorly. It's easy to pick on those two and we've been seeing a lot of teams doing that recently.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RipHamFan:</div><div class="quote_post">K Bomber, I agree with you 100% that GG has done very questionable things in the past. One of the worst things he's ever done that you didn't mention was the $6 million contract he gave to Michael Stewart. But my main point was about Chris Bosh. Okay, I might have been out of line by saying most teams put him on the BOTTOM of their lists, but many teams were surprised that he was the fourth pick. I'm not sure about the ESPN Insider but I remember reading scouting reports from GMs across the league who showed very little interest in CB. More teams were interested in guys like Wade, Hayes, and Hinrich. But then again, I could be wrong. Maybe that report was outdated at the time. I'm not saying that GG is the best man for the job. All I'm saying is that we shouldn't automatically blame the GM or blame the coaches every time a team is doing poorly. It's easy to pick on those two and we've been seeing a lot of teams doing that recently.</div> Just to give you an example. Chad Ford the guy who writes the ESPN insider column most regularly had Bosh on par with Darko and felt that given another draft he would have been a sure-fire number 1 pick overall Bosh had huge workouts. He absolutely tore apart Nick Collison at the workout they had together in Toronto. Like I said though, even with all of that, Grunwald wanted and would have taken Podkolzine in that spot if he'd been available. The second coming, and a less talented version of Gheorghe Muresan over a guy that experts are still comparing to Kevin Garnett Grunwald knows the cap and he's a lawyer by trade, but in talent evaluation he is more pedestrian than expert. Another thing that irritates me is that MLSE doesn't seem to be supplying the supporting resources in terms of scouting to the Barneys in the same way they do the beloved Maple Laffs. But even with those considerations, in watching guys like Radojevic you could tell by the way he moved on the court that he was never going to be a player in the league. There was no there, there. If you've been around and are a career pro hoops guy, you've got to be able to identify those types of things IF they are talking about re-upping GG, we're in for a long wait as fans.......... Michael Stewart, ooooh, you just shattered my mental block shielding my fragile psyche from the effects of Yogimania..........
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting K Bomber:</div><div class="quote_post">Michael Stewart, ooooh, you just shattered my mental block shielding my fragile psyche from the effects of Yogimania..........</div> First of all, relax. When I mentioned Stewart I didn't mean for you to take it as an insult. I was just stating a fact that proved I didn't think of GG as a perfect GM. Let's not throw insults around when it's not needed. Secondly, about the whole Bosh thing, as I mentioned before I could be wrong. I was under the impression that GG was being scrutinized for choosing Bosh over a guy like Dwayne Wade. I couldn't find a link to the scouting report on the 2003 draft that I read, but I did find this survey done by GMs regarding the draft. I don't know if you saw this already, but in it the GMs don't even mention Bosh's name. http://www.nba.com/preview2003/gm_survey_031016.html
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RipHamFan:</div><div class="quote_post"><div class="quote_poster">Quoting K Bomber:</div><div class="quote_post">Michael Stewart, ooooh, you just shattered my mental block shielding my fragile psyche from the effects of Yogimania..........</div>First of all, relax. When I mentioned Stewart I didn't mean for you to take it as an insult. I was just stating a fact that proved I didn't think of GG as a perfect GM. Let's not throw insults around when it's not needed.</div> Cowboy, I wasn't throwing an insult there, I was attempting that whole concept of humour You know, "Hee-Hee, Ha-Ha, Ho-Ho" -- laugh riot stuff I thought everybody considered Yogi good joke material..........
