<div class="quote_poster">Quoting iamme:</div><div class="quote_post">This is ridiculous. The ONLY reason T-Mac isn't a top 10 player in the previously mentioned lists, is because his team sucked this season. Does that make him less of a player? no way.</div> Are you sure about that? His stats are still up there, but his stock has dropped. Do you honestly think a franchise player would let his team drop 19 in a row? No. Part of being a top 10 player includes leadership, desire, and clutch play. McGrady doesn't have any of those qualities, and I dare someone to say differently. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How else are we going to argue, besides looking at stats? T-Mac's CAREER stats blow away Artest and Cassell. </div> We argue by looking at Orlando's 19 game losing streak, McGrady ending the season early, his clutch play, and his overall team standings. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Are his numbers inflated because his team sucks? maybe. but consider that KG's numbers are the best of his career, with the most talented team he's ever played on. </div> And KG is playing with a helluva a supporting cast this year. His numbers ARE up like you said, but also keep in mind his cast is built to compliment his game. McGrady's cast is a bunch of players thrown together who can't play the game of basketball. Therefore, that forces McGrady to do everything. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">T-Mac on a better team means less double teams, maybe a higher FG%, maybe more rebounds and assists. Wave said the league doesn't value assists that much....Cassell only averaged about 2 more assists per game, while averaging 9 less points, 3 less rebounds, and 2 less 3PG.</div> Yes. Those 9 less points are because he's a point guard, and he isn't a scorer. It's amazing how underrated Sam Cassell is, he's an All Star, and should be talked about like one too. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Running there mouths to the media? That has nothing to do with being one of the best in the league.</div> Never once did I say that determines who's best in the league. I was comparing the two, saying the both run their mouths off to the media. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Leading there team in minutes played? Oh yeah...since when was that a bad thing?</div> Again, did I say that was a bad thing? No. I was saying that tends to be a stat padder in all aspects. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Take load of shots? Yeah, and thats what they needed him to do. With him taking a load of shots, they made it to the NBA finals. Not sure if you saw his numbers or not...26.4 ppg, 6.8 apg, 3.7 rpg, 2.4 spg. Pretty great. </div> Read above. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not sure if you knew...but Allen Iverson averaged 24 shots per game, with NO ONE. Kevin Garnett averaged about 20 shots per game with Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell. Kobe Bryant averaged 19 shots per game with 3 Hall Of Famers. I really am sick of hearing about Iverson's shot count. He is a phenomenal basketball player. </div> Allen Iverson wasn't on my list therefore I will not comment about him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">t-mac is better than kobe. one season, t-mas had better seasons before these. o ya, what was LA's record w/o shaq? o ya, muvch worse with kbobe running the show.</div> Kobe is clutch. McGrady isn't. After this season, it's definitely been proven who's the better player. I don't want to go into further detail, because this will just be turned into a Kobe/Tmac thread.
You can't take away a players accomplishments simply because of the team he's on. Regardless of the talent around him, he goes up against the best players in the world night in and night out and he puts up those numbers against them, not his talentless teammates.
Ice, look at your top list and the supporting cast on each: Kobe Bryant (Shaq, Payton, Malone) Kevin Garnett (Cassell, Sprewell, Hudson, Szerbiak) Tim Duncan (Parker, Ginobli) Shaquille O'Neal (Kobe, Payton, Malone) Jermaine O'Neal (Artest, Harrington) Sam Cassell (Garnett, Sprewell, Hudson, Szerbiak) Jason Kidd (Jefferson, KMart) Peja Stojakovic (Webber, Bibby, Miller, Christie) Ben Wallace (Billups, Sheed, Rip) Ron Artest/Brad Miller (already mentioned above) T-Mac's supporting cast: Howard, Lue, and Gooden. You can't fault him for having a horrible team. He should make those around him better? Nearly every supporting member listed above would still have good without their star. The ONLY player I would argue that made his teammates better, would be Kidd (RJ and KMart). "leadership, desire, and clutch play" How exactly do we measure these attributes? By news bites? Quotes in teh media? Tell me, who leads the league in "desire"? "clutch play"? "leadership"? Desmond Mason is the captain on the Bucks, who are in the playoffs, so is he a top 10 player in the league?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting iamme:</div><div class="quote_post">Ice, look at your top list and the supporting cast on each: Kobe Bryant (Shaq, Payton, Malone) Kevin Garnett (Cassell, Sprewell, Hudson, Szerbiak) Tim Duncan (Parker, Ginobli) Shaquille O'Neal (Kobe, Payton, Malone) Jermaine O'Neal (Artest, Harrington) Sam Cassell (Garnett, Sprewell, Hudson, Szerbiak) Jason Kidd (Jefferson, KMart) Peja Stojakovic (Webber, Bibby, Miller, Christie) Ben Wallace (Billups, Sheed, Rip) Ron Artest/Brad Miller (already mentioned above) T-Mac's supporting cast: Howard, Lue, and Gooden.</div> I've said this once, and obviously I'll say it again. ALL of the players listed above have the supporting cast to compliment their game. McGrady doesn't have that therefore that will raise his stat line. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You can't fault him for having a horrible team. He should make those around him better? Nearly every supporting member listed above would still have good without their star. The ONLY player I would argue that made his teammates better, would be Kidd (RJ and KMart). </div> I didn't fault him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">"leadership, desire, and clutch play" How exactly do we measure these attributes? By news bites? Quotes in teh media? Tell me, who leads the league in "desire"? "clutch play"? "leadership"?</div> Desire is wanting their team to win. McGrady's desire has been questioned by the media, and this entire season may have actually proven the media right. Clutch play would be someone who MAKES the final shot of the game to get the W for his team. McGrady has yet to develop the 'killer instinct.' Leadership. Read the quote I posted earlier. I'll post it again for you: "I'm not the type of guy who likes to speak out and rub people the wrong way. That's a role I'm not comfortable with." <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Desmond Mason is the captain on the Bucks, who are in the playoffs, so is he a top 10 player in the league?</div> WTF, try again buddy.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Desire is wanting their team to win. McGrady's desire has been questioned by the media, and this entire season may have actually proven the media right. </div>again, you're basing his worth on media quotes. that's not a very objective way to make a top 10 list. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Clutch play would be someone who MAKES the final shot of the game to get the W for his team. McGrady has yet to develop the 'killer instinct.'</div>so, exactly who leads the league in game winning shots? i'd be interested in hearing how this list is proportional to your top 10 list. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Leadership. Read the quote I posted earlier. I'll post it again for you: "I'm not the type of guy who likes to speak out and rub people the wrong way. That's a role I'm not comfortable with."</div> how does this not make him a leader? since when do you have to "rub people the wrong way" to be a leader? my point is that you're leaving T-Mac off your list for two reasons: 1. his team sucks 2. negative perception by the media
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">my point is that you're leaving T-Mac off your list for two reasons: 1. his team sucks 2. negative perception by the media</div> I agree. Its simple as that. And what really caught my eye. Was when I was scrolling down Ice Top 10 list. I actually saw Peja name in there. How could you put him over Tracy McGrady? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Not sure if you knew...but Allen Iverson averaged 24 shots per game, with NO ONE. Kevin Garnett averaged about 20 shots per game with Sam Cassell and Latrell Sprewell. Kobe Bryant averaged 19 shots per game with 3 Hall Of Famers. I really am sick of hearing about Iverson's shot count. He is a phenomenal basketball player.</div> Tell me about it. Sure he dosent take the best shot selections. But how do you even expect a SG at his size especially to even average at least 25 Points and not take at least 25 shots?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting iamme:</div><div class="quote_post">again, you're basing his worth on media quotes. that's not a very objective way to make a top 10 list.</div> Ok I'll break this down AGAIN. The media has nothing to do with why I don't think he's a top 10, but they have helped point that simple fact out. They have questioned his desire, leadership, etc. Then when I watch him throughout the season (and I've probably seen/been at more games than you) he has shown his lack of desire. Theres times it looked like he didn't even want to be out there. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">so, exactly who leads the league in game winning shots? i'd be interested in hearing how this list is proportional to your top 10 list.</div> Meh. I said he's not clutch, that simple. Go down the list of other players and you will find that they are clutch players. Tim Duncan, KG, Kobe, etc. have all been known to hit the shots when they count the most. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">how does this not make him a leader? since when do you have to "rub people the wrong way" to be a leader?</div> Since I said so. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">my point is that you're leaving T-Mac off your list for two reasons: 1. his team sucks 2. negative perception by the media</div> And I'm leaving McGrady off my list because: 1. He's unable to knock down shots in the final minutes when the game is on the line. Just check out some of the games this season, he usually passes off the ball. 2. This season he has played like he doesn't even want to be out there. Please name me players whom you think are better than McGrady that were on my list. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I actually saw Peja name in there. How could you put him over Tracy McGrady? </div> If you've been following the NBA season, you'd know that at one point Peja's name was mentioned with MVP's. Bibby has somewhat struggled this season, and Peja/Miller are the reasons the Kings finished with such a strong record.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post">Ok I'll break this down AGAIN. The media has nothing to do with why I don't think he's a top 10, but they have helped point that simple fact out. They have questioned his desire, leadership, etc. Then when I watch him throughout the season (and I've probably seen/been at more games than you) he has shown his lack of desire. Theres times it looked like he didn't even want to be out there. Meh. I said he's not clutch, that simple. Go down the list of other players and you will find that they are clutch players. Tim Duncan, KG, Kobe, etc. have all been known to hit the shots when they count the most. Since I said so. And I'm leaving McGrady off my list because: 1. He's unable to knock down shots in the final minutes when the game is on the line. Just check out some of the games this season, he usually passes off the ball. 2. This season he has played like he doesn't even want to be out there. Please name me players whom you think are better than McGrady that were on my list.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I actually saw Peja name in there. How could you put him over Tracy McGrady?</div> If you've been following the NBA season, you'd know that at one point Peja's name was mentioned with MVP's. Bibby has somewhat struggled this season, and Peja/Miller are the reasons the Kings finished with such a strong record.
Well I seen people bringing up how Mcgrady career stats blow Sam Cassell out the water. I ask why? When we are talking about all NBA teams for 2004. Sam Cassell & tracy Mcgrady career situations were totally different. Sam Cassell was drafted to a team that made the playofffs before he got there(Rockets). And where a championship contender when they drafted him. He had to play his 1st few years behind a established point guard who was a former all-star in Kenny Smith. And then was traded to PHX where he played behind one of the best point guards in the league at the time in Kevin Johnson. Things didnt work out their because him & his boy Robert Horry had pesonalty clashes with then head coach Danny ainge. He was sent to Dallas, a team that was in kind of crazy at the time because of the 3 jays situations splitting up(Jason, Jim, Jamal). So there was no consistent starting lineup. Cassell would start one day & some one else would start another that happened all the way up until Sam was traded in the middle of the 96'-97'. When he was traded to the Nets he finally became an everyday starting point guard in the NBA. He had already been in the league for 4 seasons. But if you look at Cassell's # from when he became a everyday starter from the start of the season in 97-98 until now, with any other pg. They are almost egual or better to any of them during that period of time. So to act like if Cassell making All-NBA 1st team over Mcgrady is an injustice based on career stats, is just a lack of basketball knowledge imo opinion. Because 1) it has nothing to do with the situation of 2004. 2) their career path's were totally different. 3) They play 2 totally diferent positions so Mcgrady scoring out put is going to be higher than Cassell(a point guard). Cassell has never had the option of taking 20 plus shots a game for an entire season. 4) Mcgrady stats are clearly overloaded due to the fact that with the exception of his early days with the Raptors playing with Vince, Mcgrady has never had to pass the ball to anyone. Sam Cassell has always had to produce as a 2nd option. Something that Mcgrady was orignally surpose to be when him & Grant Hill were brought to the Magic in 00'. But Grant Hill injury allowed MCgrady to be the main man. So it can be said that Mcgrady benefited the most from the Hill injury. No one knows how Mcgrady would have produced as the 2nd option if Grant Hill would have been a healthy Magic player like what was orignally plan in 00'. I can understand people saying that Mcgrady is a better player. Its all about opinion. But to pull the career card in this situation is worthless imo. Cassell in his career has been in & produced in situations that Mcgrady is still dreaming about.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post"> Since I said so. </div> and with that stunning argument, i'm done. i guess i can agree to disagree. i'm one to argue stats and facts, while much of the arguments here are hearsay and opinion-based.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting iamme:</div><div class="quote_post">and with that stunning argument, i'm done. i guess i can agree to disagree. i'm one to argue stats and facts, while much of the arguments here are hearsay and opinion-based.</div> How do you want me to explain that McGrady lacks leadership? It's obvious you will just say 'It's because of the team he's on.' Simple fact is he's no leader, and this season exposed that very fact. But please do me one thing, name players on my list that you think are better than McGrady. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Well I seen people bringing up how Mcgrady career stats blow Sam Cassell out the water. I ask why? When we are talking about all NBA teams for 2004.</div> :thumbsup:
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting iamme:</div><div class="quote_post"> i'm one to argue stats and facts, while much of the arguments here are hearsay and opinion-based.</div> Fact of the Matter is that if T-mac was as clutch & such a leader as you claim he wouldnt have never let his team hit a 19- game wall. I understand one player cant win every game on his on. But a great player once their team faced a double-digit losing streak(most great players teams dont face double-digit losing streaks by the way) would have done any & everything to make sure that his team won some games. And thats not just throwing up 20 or 30 shots. That could be having the defensive game of his life. Having a game wear he gave out assist like John stockton basically any & everything like I said. Please explain or tell me the game where Mcgrady did any & everything to make sure his teams losing streak didnt balloon to 19 games. Its was times during the losing streak(when teams were throwing a weak zone on T-mac) that Mcgrady went to the media after the game & sounded defeated. He sounded like he didnt even care anymore. How is a team surpose to keep their heads up & fight to win ball games when their so called leader isnt even doing the same. Real leaders & Clutch players dont put their teams in that type of situation. And thats something the stats wont tell you my friend. The main thing that the Magic were missing this season was leadership. So when T-mac becomes a leader then you can come back to talk about how great his indiviual stats are.
I don't agree that T-Mac isn't a top 10 player because I'd have him in mine, but I would probably place him 8 or 9 too. I don't question him as an offensive player obviously, because he is great at that. I also do agree with Ice though, that he definitely is not a team leader and really doesn't do anything when his team needs him most. Someone mentioned Carter possibly being better than McGrady, I wouldn't agree with that unless we're only talking about the 4th quarter, because Carter does know how to hit clutch shots unlike T-Mac. The 19 game losing streak was also very disappointing to see, because a great player can usually bring his team to victory single handedly if it is necessary. We've seen this from many great players, and I was surprised and disappointed thatT-Mac didn't step up for his team. He actually looked like he was starting to get used to losing, which is something I hate seeing in great players. Overall, I'd probably have him at the 8th spot behind Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, KG, Kidd, J. O'Neal, and Paul Pierce
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Fact of the Matter is that if T-mac was as clutch & such a leader as you claim he wouldnt have never let his team hit a 19- game wall. I understand one player cant win every game on his on. But a great player once their team faced a double-digit losing streak(most great players teams dont face double-digit losing streaks by the way) would have done any & everything to make sure that his team won some games. And thats not just throwing up 20 or 30 shots. That could be having the defensive game of his life. Having a game wear he gave out assist like John stockton basically any & everything like I said. Please explain or tell me the game where Mcgrady did any & everything to make sure his teams losing streak didnt balloon to 19 games. Its was times during the losing streak(when teams were throwing a weak zone on T-mac) that Mcgrady went to the media after the game & sounded defeated. He sounded like he didnt even care anymore. How is a team surpose to keep their heads up & fight to win ball games when their so called leader isnt even doing the same. Real leaders & Clutch players dont put their teams in that type of situation. And thats something the stats wont tell you my friend. The main thing that the Magic were missing this season was leadership. So when T-mac becomes a leader then you can come back to talk about how great his indiviual stats are.</div> one last post, just to clarify what i was saying earlier. i never said T-Mac WAS a leader or WAS clutch. i'm just wondering how you can measure the "clutchness" and "leadership" of the other players, and then say that T-Mac doesn't have those attributes. my point is this (and i said it in my original post): i think the ONLY reason that people are even considering T-Mac a non-top-10 player, is because Orlando sucked this season and because of the snippets from media quotes. to me, those don't take away from the T-Mac being a top-10 player in my mind. feel free to disagree.
Mcgrady and the word "leadership" dont belong in the same sentence....this is a player who contemplated retirement because his team was losing....how astounding. mcgrady talks too much for his own good and this is why i cant stand him. one thing i give him credit for...he has game..a ton of it....but, he doesnt know how to make his team better and he doesnt trust his teammates enough....his supporting cast is weak, i understand that but then again look at the JK situation in NJ...Kenyon was a hobbling sophmore who'd just come off a leg injury in his rookie year and RJ was a rookie..yet he managed to turn things around and have made the finals 2 years straight... you look at Tmac, what has he done in his career thats so great? Blow a first round lead over the pistons? Leave Toronto for jealously reasons? As he said in an interview, he left because "he wanted vince to have his spotlight, let him go somewhere and have his own spotlight" He's more about about indivisual stats then team WINS, which is why hes not a top 10 player in the league... Stat wise, he could pretty much be in the top 5 but you ask me if I'd rather take vince or Tmac, I'd take Vince....he makes the players around him better. you got ppl saying vince lacks heart...then you got Tmac crying cuz his team is losing. but thats off the point... Tmac is not clutch....and he does not play the defense he is capable of playing....again, stat wise, hes a top 10 player but he isnt exactly what a franchise player is supposed to be...
lol , this thread makes no sense. How can T-Mac not be a top 5? even the Media says he is the best player under 6'8 which would put T-Mac and Kobe in the 4/5 spot. How can T-Mac be a clutch player when his team sucks? teams can't double team or triple team Kobe because Malone , Payton , Fisher or Shaq would make the shot. T-Mac plays the 4 quaters , while other guys like Kobe can just play out through the game and EXPLODE and give the win to their team in the 4th quater while T-Mac is dying and still drop 10+ in the 4th. T-Mac is not a vocal leader Agreed , but that doesn't make him less of a player in any way. If T-Mac had a good supporting cast , his FG% would be up because they wouldn't triple team him all the time , he would be more of a clutch player ( by the media) since he could be free , he could "take over the game" in the 4th quater because he saved energy thruout the game , I could name a million things. I know you've seen a lot of games Ice , I saw all the Magic games this season , T-Mac has gone thru a lot this past season , lost his friend Mike Miller for Gooden and Giricek ok, maybe making the 2nd round? nop , lost Miller for nothing , lost the Team vocal leader (Darrel Armstrong) how can you stop a 19 games losing streak with so many new players , no leader and you are trying to be the leader and are the only guy being double and tripled team? there's a reason why KG never got out of the first round alone. Here is how the list should be: 1 - Shaquille O'Neal: No Comments. 2 - KG : He will always be better than T-Mac because of his ability to block and rebound more than Mcgrady. 3 - Tim Duncan: The guy doesn't talk , just drops his all star stats night in night out and a Center like TD really makes your team better. 4- T-Mac: Ability to score , breakdown defense , good defense (not this season because Darrel Armstrong really helped with that even thouh I still think it was good , anybody saw how Orlando beat detroit after the steal by T-Mac? 5 - Kobe Bryant: T-Mac and Kobe would be number 4 , but since T-Mac is taller , can obviously rebound and block more and has the better statline supporting cast or not he is #4. 6 - J'O'neal: The guy gets it done. 7 - Jason Kidd : Most say best PG in the world , I love his passing , can defend , can score , can run the floor , experience. 8 - Peja: He is really almost the best shooter in the NBA imo , and really fits in Sacramento. 9 - Dirk Nowitzkit : 7 footer ? 10 - Chris Webber: All Star PF . Thing is the only way to find out which player is better than which player is playing each player being compared in everyteam or in this case in the team of the person being compared to , thing that can't be done but with that not being able to be done , only thing you can do is speculate and what they could do. T-Mac not a top 5? Please.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Ice:</div><div class="quote_post"> I hate 'naming' players without an explanation because thats post padding, but I can think of 10 players who are better than/equal to McGrady. Kobe Bryant Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Sam Cassell Jason Kidd Peja Stojakovic Ben Wallace Ron Artest/Brad Miller </div> ok WOW....i actually laughed out loud when i read ur list of whos better than T-Mac...ummm, take off: Cassell, Stojokavic, Wallace, and Artest...and lmao@ B. Miller being better than McGrady... Players who REALLY are better, or atleast can be argued: Shaq Kobe J. Kidd J. O'Neal A. Iverson T. Duncan K. Garnett thats it...T-Mac is definitely a top 10 player, and arguably a top FIVE player...
TMac is in the same boat as Iverson, Pierce and AI, they're top 15 at least. All three of them, but you have to see it from a standpoint, their cast and how well they performed alone as well as how they carried their team. TMac carried it fairly well considering who he had, but Pierce has just as bad a team, so I'd take him over him also.
^amen, couldn't have said it better, oh and TmAc_OwNz (or however you capped your name) t mac is 6'8 (but he looks taller, which i think he is)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">^amen, couldn't have said it better, oh and TmAc_OwNz (or however you capped your name) t mac is 6'8 (but he looks taller, which i think he is)</div> Pierce is the only one of the 3, who really got them to the playoffs in my opinion, excluding TMac of course, seeing as they didn't make it.
