<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TMac_OwNz:</div><div class="quote_post">4- T-Mac: Ability to score , breakdown defense , good defense (not this season because Darrel Armstrong really helped with that even thouh I still think it was good , anybody saw how Orlando beat detroit after the steal by T-Mac? 5 - Kobe Bryant: T-Mac and Kobe would be number 4 , but since T-Mac is taller , can obviously rebound and block more and has the better statline supporting cast or not he is #4. 6 - J'O'neal: The guy gets it done. 7 - Jason Kidd : Most say best PG in the world , I love his passing , can defend , can score , can run the floor , experience. </div> T-Mac does have the ability to score and break down D, but not anymore than Kidd or Kobe. Kobe, Kidd and O'Neal are all also much better defenders than T-Mac. You base his defense on him getting a steal and beating Detroit in a game? Don't make me laugh, any player makes good plays sometimes, no matter how good of a defender you are. For T-Mac being so much taller than Kobe, why does he only have a .5 edge on him in RPG with more minutes? Kobe has Karl and Shaq taking everything, I don't see how he is a better rebounder if he can only get .5 more with that. Blocks, don't even bring that up because neither Kobe nor T-Mac are strong on that category. I would change that list and have T-Mac on the bottom of the list, and the other three stay in that order. Being a good defender but not trying on defense this season would make me think less of him, if anything..
im reading alot of.. mcgradys team (orlando) arent in the playoffs therefore he cant be a top ten player.... for one... if hes team is so crap and the players around him are crap... then double his assist tally. because if he was on a good team the players around him would make the shots when he passes it..... btw.. i thought this was about top ten players (period).. not top ten players who are part of a team who can win.... mcgrady as an individual basketball player... is in the top ten EASILY !!!!!
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">even the Media says he is the best player under 6'8 which would put T-Mac and Kobe in the 4/5 spot.</div> TMac is about 6'9". Kobe is about 6'8".
Mcgrady is a top ten player. Just his team is bad doesnt mean that his stats are so easy to acheive. If its so easy for him to make all those stats because of his team then his TPG would be really high aswell but its not(2.6)for the only person on his team that can play baseketball is not high at all and hes a guard. Why doesnt a player any other player on a bad team get high stats like T-Mac. His defense is also good his team's defense sucks so its not as easy for him to play a good defense as any other player. All the pressure is put on him because he is the teams best player. Same thing goes for his clutch playing he is the teams best player and its hard for him to play in the clutch. Kobe knows he has Shaq(who in my opinon is the leagues best rebounder in the clutch) to pass to or rebound his shot. Garnett was never considered clutch until this year when he got Cassel an Sprewel to pass to. Clutch playing is playing under pressure and T-Mac is under alot of pressure. Someone mentioned Kidd making his teammates play better well thats his job not T-Macs. I think of Kidd as a top 5 player because he makes his team mates sooooooooooooooo much better. Here is my top ten 1.Garnett(hte him but have too admit it) 2.Duncan(the most boring player) 3.Kidd(some people might think im mad but I think hes sooooooo important to his team) 4.Shaq(Getting old but I still think the Lakers success is due more to him than anyone else) 5.Jermaine 6.Mcgrady/Kobe 7.Carter(a bit biased but I think he makes his team mates play much better) 8.Ben Wallace(DEFENSE) 9.Webber(would be higher but had a lot of injuries) 10.Dont know maybe Marbury(he is like a smaller version of Kidd)
Thank you guys for giving me a big laugh. I don't understand how you guys don't have TMac in at least the top 6 or 7. Arguably the top 5. Yes I'm biased, but do you ever watch the dude play? Someone mentioned something about trusting the teammates, he does trust them, he passes it to them so much and they brick it. Somehow with his sorry teammates he still manages 5+ assists. You guys are sure you've watched him play? He's made so many great passes to players and they miss layups, step out of bounds, etc. (Declerq is great at missing layups, Steven Hunter always steps out of bounds) His defense is so underrated. Everyone says it sucks. Have u actually seen an Orlando Magic game if you say his defense sucks? Players actually attack Tmac, while players such as Kobe no one attacks because of one man SHAQ. Artest is same way, who wants to drive in and have the other O'Neal swat their shot. Artest and Kobe are both great defenders, I'm not taking it out on them, they probably still are better than Tmac at defense, but if you put either O'Neal behind Tmac, then I guarantee you Tmac would be considered a top defender. Also I'd love to see all of you guys go out and play offense and defense 110% every possession for 42 mins in an NBA level game. Tmac has no help at all, like you've been saying, so he can't relax on offense because if he does, then we won't have a chance to score. While Kobe has other options on his team and can focus more on defense than offense. The leadership and clutch is very valid, he's not either, BUT THAT SHOULDN'T AFFECT HIS STATUS OF TOP 10 PLAYER. I can't believe you would say that Brad Miller is better than Tmac, Ice. Look at the stats. You say Tmac doesn't have leadership and clutchness, but does Brad Miller take all the shots down the stretch. HELL NO. Do you think Brad Miller is the only leader on his team? HELL NO. My list 1. Timmy D 2. KG 3. Shaq 4. Tmac 5. Kobe 6. Jermaine O Neal 7. Jason Kidd That's my top 7. JUST WAIT UNTIL TMAC LEAVES, HE WILL AUTOMATICALLY GET CATAPAULTED INTO THE TOP 3 OR 4.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sportsrock37:</div><div class="quote_post"> Someone mentioned something about trusting the teammates, he does trust them, he passes it to them so much and they brick it. Somehow with his sorry teammates he still manages 5+ assists. You guys are sure you've watched him play? He's made so many great passes to players and they miss layups, step out of bounds, etc. (Declerq is great at missing layups, Steven Hunter always steps out of bounds) His defense is so underrated. Everyone says it sucks. Have u actually seen an Orlando Magic game if you say his defense sucks? Players actually attack Tmac, while players such as Kobe no one attacks because of one man SHAQ. Artest is same way, who wants to drive in and have the other O'Neal swat their shot. Artest and Kobe are both great defenders, I'm not taking it out on them, they probably still are better than Tmac at defense, but if you put either O'Neal behind Tmac, then I guarantee you Tmac would be considered a top defender. Also I'd love to see all of you guys go out and play offense and defense 110% every possession for 42 mins in an NBA level game. Tmac has no help at all, like you've been saying, so he can't relax on offense because if he does, then we won't have a chance to score. While Kobe has other options on his team and can focus more on defense than offense.</div> Thank you , finally somebody makes sense agreed 100% T-Mac defense is way underrated and if we have a few good players assists would increase. My list and your list are pretty much the same except for TD being #1 , in my list he is 3rd and Shaq is #1 but those are other things , T-Mac 4 , Kobe 5 thats just how they are in my list.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TMac_OwNz:</div><div class="quote_post">lol , this thread makes no sense. How can T-Mac not be a top 5? even the Media says he is the best player under 6'8 which would put T-Mac and Kobe in the 4/5 spot</div> Don't ya just love the media? Ok, heres 5 players whom are better than McGrady. Shaq, Duncan, Garnett- No explanation necessary. Then you have Jason Kidd, a player who is a triple double threat on a daily basis. People tend to underrate the point guard position, and they are the ones who have to do it all. They run the team, maintain the tempo of the game, set up their teammates, etc. Jason Kidd is at the top of his game, and he's rather underrated when it comes to rankings as a top 10 player. Jermaine O'Neal is having an MVP like season, just look where he has his Pacers. They finished the season with the leagues best record, and his numbers have gone up. His has established himself as their go-to franchise player, and thus far he's been successful. To put him below McGrady is rather astounding, just look what he's done this season. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">How can T-Mac be a clutch player when his team sucks? teams can't double team or triple team Kobe because Malone , Payton , Fisher or Shaq would make the shot.</div> I don't care who his teammates are, the basket can be the size of the ocean and he still tends to miss the shot. OR he dishes if off because he's being doubled. If he was really clutch, he'd attack the basket rather than play passively. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">T-Mac plays the 4 quaters , while other guys like Kobe can just play out through the game and EXPLODE and give the win to their team in the 4th quater while T-Mac is dying and still drop 10+ in the 4th.</div> Kobe can play 48 minutes straight, have 20 at the half, and still knock down the winning shot for his team. That simple. I really don't need to go into anymore detail because we all know what Kobe is capable of. I hate him as an individual, but he's a helluva a player. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If T-Mac had a good supporting cast , his FG% would be up because they wouldn't triple team him all the time , he would be more of a clutch player ( by the media) since he could be free , he could "take over the game" in the 4th quater because he saved energy thruout the game , I could name a million things.</div> Please do name a million things. The only thing I can think of is McGrady is unable to knock down the shots at the end of the game. Or, like I've said before, he passes the ball. He needs to have the mentality of 'I'm going to go straight to the basket, and win this one for my team.' <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I know you've seen a lot of games Ice , I saw all the Magic games this season , T-Mac has gone thru a lot this past season , lost his friend Mike Miller for Gooden and Giricek ok, maybe making the 2nd round? nop , lost Miller for nothing , lost the Team vocal leader (Darrel Armstrong) how can you stop a 19 games losing streak with so many new players , no leader and you are trying to be the leader and are the only guy being double and tripled team? there's a reason why KG never got out of the first round alone.</div> The franchise player should be able to at least win one game for you. The 19 straight was inexcusable, and it never should have happened in the first place. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">5 - Kobe Bryant: T-Mac and Kobe would be number 4 , but since T-Mac is taller , can obviously rebound and block more and has the better statline supporting cast or not he is #4. 6 - J'O'neal: The guy gets it done. 7 - Jason Kidd : Most say best PG in the world , I love his passing , can defend , can score , can run the floor , experience. 8 - Peja: He is really almost the best shooter in the NBA imo , and really fits in Sacramento. 9 - Dirk Nowitzkit : 7 footer ? 10 - Chris Webber: All Star PF .</div> I don't see how you put Jermaine O'Neal, Kobe Bryant, and Jason Kidd BELOW McGrady. Jason Kidd/Jermaine O'Neal, read previous comments. Kobe Bryant aka the Mr. Clutch of this NBA season. He's playing an entirely different role this season (and doing an amazing job at that) so it's BS of you to pull up the stat lines when comparing the two. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Thing is the only way to find out which player is better than which player is playing each player being compared in everyteam or in this case in the team of the person being compared to , thing that can't be done but with that not being able to be done , only thing you can do is speculate and what they could do.</div> I'll clarify something that I don't believe I've mentioned before. I started this thread when I saw (although now it's a mistake, he made second) that McGrady made the All NBA team. I'm talking about players THIS season that are better than McGrady, because thats the point of the All NBA Team. Toss out all the previous seasons because thats rather irreverent due to newly found roles. If you were to do that than a lot of the other stats would be very misleading. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Someone mentioned something about trusting the teammates, he does trust them, he passes it to them so much and they brick it.</div> Calling out your teammate sure won't help build their confidence either. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">You say Tmac doesn't have leadership and clutchness, but does Brad Miller take all the shots down the stretch. HELL NO. Do you think Brad Miller is the only leader on his team? HELL NO. </div> How do we know that? Brad Miller has been a huge surprise to all of us, and he's having a great season this year. As it might be a stretch to say he's better than McGray, we'll never really know. He has to play with Webber, Vlade, Peja, and Bibby. People tend to fall for the name, rather than their actual game. The purpose of this thread was to test out something for the future with JBB. That is all I will say regarding that topic. Do I think McGrady is a top 10 player? Thats just up for debate.
lol , how can you even question if T-Mac is a top 10 player???????????? lol this thread was make to bring a lot of people to talk about different things obviously T-Mac will make people talk and talk , and a top 10 list of the NBA. I'm not even discussing any more of this , this makes absolutly no sense at all , Jason Kidd is a great player maybe the best PG but I will have him and T-Mac in my team for sure , J. O'neal he is a great player but I still don't think he is more than T-Mac period. Even though he had a dissapointing season , like it or not he is a TOP 5 without a doubt , at least at his height , maybe J Oneal and Jason Kidd and Kobe could make the longest debate in JBB history and you would leave T-Mac in 5th 6th 7th or something and that would end after discussing their team record , but question if he is a top 10? good luck with that :thumbsup: .
The thing that pisses me off the most about Kobe is that he always gets bailed out late in games. How many times in the final 2 or 3 mins do you see Kobe driving to the hole and there's a foul called? A lot. Then Tmac gets held by Shaq and there is absolutely no foul called. There's no way Brad Miller is better than Tmac. No chance at all. Yes he's really good and I would take him in a heartbeat, I defintely would rather have Tmac. Let's see Kobe knock down shots down the stretch and drive in without getting the whistle with 3 guys guarding him, including the other teams center who is there to block it. Tmac needs to pass most of the time down the stretch because there's almost no chance of him making a shot and even getting it off with everyone thats' guarding him. He's definetely top 7. No chance in hell he's not top 10 right now this season. btw, All-NBA teams are individual performances, not how good your team is. Tmac definetely deserves to be on the 2nd team, if not the 1st.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ReRun:</div><div class="quote_post">t-mac is better than kobe. one season, t-mas had better seasons before these. o ya, what was LA's record w/o shaq? o ya, muvch worse with kbobe running the show. </div> I'm assuming you haven't followed the Laker season this year....the Lakers need Shaq to win, but they've fared a lot worse without kobe this season...it's a new time, and Shaq isn't as dominant...I don't ahve the exact stats with me, but it was something like Shaq w/o Kobe, lakers winning pct is .49 , Kobe w/o Shaq is .72, and with both .73 ....it was something to that effect... anyway..Although some of u guys make some good arguments, I honestly think T-mac is top 10, but definitely not top 5.. 1. Duncan 2. Garnett 3. Shaq 4. Kobe 5. Kidd 6. Jermaine O'neal 7. Paul Pierce 8. T-Mac
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I can think of 10 players who are better than/equal to McGrady. Kobe Bryant Kevin Garnett Tim Duncan Shaquille O'Neal Jermaine O'Neal Sam Cassell Jason Kidd Peja Stojakovic Ben Wallace Ron Artest/Brad Miller</div> Altough there are a few on that list that I disagree with. But seriously..Ice can I PLEASE get an explantion on why you have Peja on that list as better than or equal to Tracy McGrady.
How is Pierce( which is in the same situation as T-Mac)better than T-Mac when T-Mac has better stats? not to mention Blount is better than DeClerq and Ricky Davis is better than T-Lue.)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting STCBBall3:</div><div class="quote_post">TMac is about 6'9". Kobe is about 6'8".</div> no, tmac is 6'9 and kobe is about 6'6 and a half. that's besides the point (this conversation is starting to heat up), put TMac in Kobe's position and vice versa, do any of you actually think TMac would be averaging 28, 6 and 5 this season if he had to play only 37 mpg, and take around 17,18 shots per game (kobe averages around 23 shots per 48 minutes...someone calculate), especially with TMac horrible shooting percentage!? his stats would definitely go down to 19/20 ppg, 4.5 rpg (malone and shaq grabbing a lot of them would affect TMac's stat lines a lot like Ice said), and 4 apg. Now if Kobe played about 40 minutes a game, and took 28.10 shots per 48 minutes along with his shooting percentage and free throw percentage, kobe's stats would defintely go up to about 31 ppg, 7 rpg or a bit higher (just like last year) and 6.5/7 apg. Some of you say TMac is not considered a top 10 player only because his team's lack of success and you say he is better than Kobe? even when it comes to stats Kobe will beat him out. Other players are definitely on that list or should stay atop of TMac like JKidd and Ron Ron for example. Basically TMac in my opininon is not a top 10 player and if he is, he would be number 9 or 10.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now if Kobe played about 40 minutes a game, and took 28.10 shots per 48 minutes along with his shooting percentage and free throw percentage, kobe's stats would defintely go up to about 31 ppg, 7 rpg or a bit higher (just like last year) and 6.5/7 apg. Some of you say TMac is not considered a top 10 player only because his team's lack of success and you say he is better than Kobe? even when it comes to stats Kobe will beat him out.</div> I agree with the fact that Kobe is better than McGrady. But as for the statistic's I disagree. I believe if Kobe was in McGrady situation. Kobe would have done a little better with the team, since he's a better player. But his FG% wouldnt be too far apart from McGrady's. When you have a player like Shaq on your team. The opposing team can't always keep a eye on you. They have to worry about the most dominating man in sports period lucrking around the paint. Kobe dosent get abused by the defense as much as Tracy McGrady is. Take Paul Pierce for example. Since Antoine Walker left. Its all eye's on Pierce, there is no legit second scoring threat on that Celtic's team. Therefore the opposing team has Pierce on lock the WHOLE game. Why do you think he's shooting his carrer low? Seriously I really don't understand how anyone could keep Tracy McGrady out of the Top 10.
McGrady is a top ten player imo, i think he just gave up this year after the 19 game losing streak...i mean come on.....would u think kobe would still play the way hes playing and leading magic to the playoffs if he were half way through the season and was like 30 games below .500 and that his team is shit? .... if u were talking about this last year when they DID make the playoffs.....then nobody in the right mind would say he isn't a top 10 player.... also i don't get why peja gets all the love....he just shoots open jump shots assisted by teammates all day .....in one of the playoff games between dallas and kings,,some guy said ..only like 20 3s that peja has made weren't asisted....
Is Tracy Mcgrady a top ten talent in this league? Absolutely. This guy is nothing short of a physical specimen who has the ability to single handedly take over and dominate games with his skills. Tracy McGrady is definetly one hell of a talented basketball player. Is Tracy McGrady a top ten player in this league? In the past he has, this year he hasn't been. There is a difference for those of you who don't know between talent and being one of the best players. Tracy got outperformed this year by at least 10 players if not more. He simply didn't cut it this year. He has good individual numbers however that means jack because his team is sitting at home. The star players on the teams that are in the playoffs IMO outplayed TMAC this year. Tracy has the talent to single handedly lead a team to the playoffs, yet this year he didn't. In fact, his team was one of the worst in the NBA. Other teams made it because their star players stepped it up big at big times. Unfortunately this year for the Magic, Tracy was unable to do that. In conclusion, Tracy is without a doubt one of the top talents in the league however this year he was NOT one of the best players in the league. Last year was different and I expect next year will be too. Most years Tracy would be one of the top 10(if not 5) players however this year he got outplayed, badly.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TMac_OwNz:</div><div class="quote_post">How is Pierce( which is in the same situation as T-Mac)better than T-Mac when T-Mac has better stats? not to mention Blount is better than DeClerq and Ricky Davis is better than T-Lue.)</div> Read what's bolded, and now look at this: Boston: 36-46 Orlando: 21-61
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Read what's bolded, and now look at this: Boston: 36-46 Orlando: 21-61 </div> exactly...if peirce is in the same situation as tmac then how did he lead his team to the playoffs 1) he got lucky 2) he is NOT in the same situation for he has a legitimate yet incosistent supporting cast with Ricky Davis, Tony Battie etc tmacs only legitimate player on his team is Juwan Howard IMO...
McGrady is no doubt what Hunter said, and got right on the dot. Top ten talents, but not one of the top 10 players this season. You cannot say Peja wa snot in the Top 10 this year. He is an MVP candidate, and was one of the 'X' factors of why the Kings got such a rgood record this year. You cannot go by stats alone when deciding hwo is in the Top 10. you must take into consideration how they have helped their team this season, and their stiuation. If you go by stats, of course McGrady will be in the Top 10 players this season, but he isn't. If the Magic change their situation that they are in, Mcgrady will mmos def. be in the top 10 of the league next season.
pierce is definetelt not t-mac caliber, believe me he has messed boston up with his wacky leasdership.
