<div class="quote_poster">Quoting nkwu:</div><div class="quote_post"> You cannot go by stats alone when deciding hwo is in the Top 10. you must take into consideration how they have helped their team this season, and their stiuation. If you go by stats, of course McGrady will be in the Top 10 players this season, but he isn't. If the Magic change their situation that they are in, Mcgrady will mmos def. be in the top 10 of the league next season.</div> Then again , Players don't have the same teams , therefore you can't judge them on how they "helped" their team. Paul Pierce is a top 10 IMO but more of a 10 or you could say a top 15 , He has Blount which had a career season , Ricky Davis , inconsistant but talented and some others , while T-Mac had Juwan Howard , and Gooden playing a few mins.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Hunter:</div><div class="quote_post">Is Tracy Mcgrady a top ten talent in this league? Absolutely. This guy is nothing short of a physical specimen who has the ability to single handedly take over and dominate games with his skills. Tracy McGrady is definetly one hell of a talented basketball player. Is Tracy McGrady a top ten player in this league? In the past he has, this year he hasn't been. There is a difference for those of you who don't know between talent and being one of the best players. Tracy got outperformed this year by at least 10 players if not more. He simply didn't cut it this year. He has good individual numbers however that means jack because his team is sitting at home. The star players on the teams that are in the playoffs IMO outplayed TMAC this year. Tracy has the talent to single handedly lead a team to the playoffs, yet this year he didn't. In fact, his team was one of the worst in the NBA. Other teams made it because their star players stepped it up big at big times. Unfortunately this year for the Magic, Tracy was unable to do that. In conclusion, Tracy is without a doubt one of the top talents in the league however this year he was NOT one of the best players in the league. Last year was different and I expect next year will be too. Most years Tracy would be one of the top 10(if not 5) players however this year he got outplayed, badly.</div> hallelujah! that is what i was trying to say, this season. If TMac puts the magic(if he gets traded, then it's a different story) in a position where they can actually be playoff contenders(they do not need to be in it, just close enough for a run or something) and he puts up those similar numbers, i will consider putting him at my top 10, maybe even top 5
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">hallelujah! that is what i was trying to say, this season. If TMac puts the magic(if he gets traded, then it's a different story) in a position where they can actually be playoff contenders(they do not need to be in it, just close enough for a run or something) and he puts up those similar numbers, i will consider putting him at my top 10, maybe even top 5</div> That is ridiculous , so how many players took their team to the playoffs with a single hand? Paul Pierce? are you going to compare Blount , Ricky , Atkins with DeClerq , Juwan Howard(maybe) and T-Lue? I don't think so , KG? Sam and Spree ( he couldn't pass the 1st round last year , T-Mac neither) Shaq? he could but still didn't , Kobe ? people say he could but he didn't and I personally don't think so , J Oneal? nop , Tim Duncan , well he has Ginobli , Bowen is one of the best defenders of this league , Tony Parker a top 10 PG in the league when you have a top 10 PG and C and a top 5 defender with role and experienced players you didn't do anything alone. anyways , my point is I think it makes no sense to judge T-Mac on what he did this season with his team , last season was luck + energy and inspiration which he lost this season because of Mike Miller not being here , Darrel Armstrong not being here , this was completely a new team for him except for DeClerq which sucks period , and 2 or 3 more guys which were not starters at different positions. ALL NBA TEAM means if that player could be a really good player with other good player , so what does having a good record have to do with that? leadership? obviously the best leader would be in the all nba first team , clutch? obviously the best clutch player will be in the all nba first team.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">no, tmac is 6'9 and kobe is about 6'6 and a half. that's besides the point (this conversation is starting to heat up), put TMac in Kobe's position and vice versa, do any of you actually think TMac would be averaging 28, 6 and 5 this season if he had to play only 37 mpg, and take around 17,18 shots per game (kobe averages around 23 shots per 48 minutes...someone calculate), especially with TMac horrible shooting percentage!? his stats would definitely go down to 19/20 ppg, 4.5 rpg (malone and shaq grabbing a lot of them would affect TMac's stat lines a lot like Ice said), and 4 apg. Now if Kobe played about 40 minutes a game, and took 28.10 shots per 48 minutes along with his shooting percentage and free throw percentage, kobe's stats would defintely go up to about 31 ppg, 7 rpg or a bit higher (just like last year) and 6.5/7 apg. Some of you say TMac is not considered a top 10 player only because his team's lack of success and you say he is better than Kobe? even when it comes to stats Kobe will beat him out. </div> How would Kobe's assists go up with less help and Tmac's assists go down with more help? Tmac is a way better assist man, IMO. TMac for the most part is the better shooter too. Kobe has defense, leadership, and clutchness on Tmac. (the defense is really close, much closer than you guys think, leadership and clutch isn't even close) So it could go either way. Tmac's the better player on the court, but Kobe has the desire and leadership to carry a team. LIKE I SAID BEFORE, JUST WAIT UNTIL THEY SWITCH PLACES AFTER NEXT YEAR. WHEN TMAC GOES TO A GOOD TEAM WITH HELP AND WHEN KOBE TRIES TO RUN HIS OWN TEAM.
^Sorry but some your remarks have been a little biased.no offense. so much people have explained as to why TMac is not a top 10 player this year and you still can not understand. we better stop because it has started to become a "who's better" convo. well you know what,let's just leave it at that and when Kobe does go to another team (which i think he will) we will see how they do(assuming TMac stays in Orlando).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sportsrock37:</div><div class="quote_post">How would Kobe's assists go up with less help and Tmac's assists go down with more help? Tmac is a way better assist man, IMO. </div> This thread isn't even about Kobe but his name keeps coming up...The fact has been over the last few years, when Shaq was out, Kobe's assist and rebounds have been up...ask me why, i dunno why, but its been like that...perhaps because they stray from the triangle more
Yeah, I've mentioned that I am biased, but you guys are biased against Tmac, IMO. I don't understand how someone who avgs 28 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg isn't top 10. I understand about the 19 game losing streak, but that's leadership, not player. Leadership isn't everything. Many good players got on bad teams. (The Admiral the year before they draft TD) Stats should be at least 80% of the decision. It seems like Leadership is 80% to all you guys. Does that mean Bruce Bowen is a top 10 player because he provides leadership, if that's 80% of your decision. Just wait until next year, Orlando will be back.
My man problem with you're list Ice is the fact that it looks like something you would put out about this year. I would deffinatly say that T-Mac did not play like a Top 10 player THIS YEAR. All around.. Looking currently, not at stats this year, or career. But based on skill. T-Mac is Top Ten. I am deffinatly not going to say he is a Top 5 because thats going to far. The only people that deserve to be put into that topic are Kevin Garnett, Shaq, and Tim Duncan. Year after Year. Game after Game. They don't quit, and they are pretty much the most consistent players in the League. T-Mac Is Not. He showed that this year when he got shut down at times, and when he dropped 30 the next night. Not to mention the incredible 29 win season. I won't go about Kobe, but I don't think he deserves to be mentioned as a Top 5 guy, considering he could be tied with a few people.. What are we to say who are the best players though? Are we basing it on Stats? Or on Basketball Skill? Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Shawn Marion.. All men you left out of you're list. You put Brad Miller ahead of all these guys. Five guys who, had a better team/coach could be in the postion of someone like a Jason Kidd(For Example use, he is the best player on his team, but he has a supporting cast which would be the best for my example). You stick Paul Pierce on a team with Kenyon Martin and Richard Jefferson. Or a player of that calibure. Or you stick Tracy McGrady on a team with Stephon Marbury. You have a better player because the cast around him gives him a better chance. I really don't understand what this list is about.. This year? or what? If we are talking this year, My list would include: KG, Duncan, Kidd, Jermaine O'Neal, Ron Artest, Shaq, Kobe, Peja, Ben Wallace, Paul Pierce. I love the argument though.... I just am confused on what it is about..
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ReRun:</div><div class="quote_post">none of you hav a clue, of course he's a top ten player, maybe even a top five. asid efrom that fact that he cant lead a team to save his life, he is one of the most talented players in the NBA.</div> Yea he is very talented player but leading your team to wins is a big part of being a top player in the NBA. And you winning 21 games out of 82 is just horrible for a player to be such a top 5 player
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sportsrock37:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, I've mentioned that I am biased, but you guys are biased against Tmac, IMO. I don't understand how someone who avgs 28 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg isn't top 10. I understand about the 19 game losing streak, but that's leadership, not player. Leadership isn't everything. Many good players got on bad teams. (The Admiral the year before they draft TD) Stats should be at least 80% of the decision. It seems like Leadership is 80% to all you guys. Does that mean Bruce Bowen is a top 10 player because he provides leadership, if that's 80% of your decision. Just wait until next year, Orlando will be back. </div> First and foremost dont ever say we are biased against Tracy McGrady. I for one think he is one hell of a basketball player, however I am also bright enough to recognize that he was not a top 10 players THIS year. He was the past two years however this year he hasn't been due to his piss poor attitude and leadership skills. A person's character is best judged when things go badly and this year T-MAC showed some horrible character. Second off, find me a division one college basketball coach that thinks stats are 80% compared to leadership(20%) as you claim them to me. If you do that I will drop this entire argument and send you a written apology. The fact of the matter is leadership is something that people look at in terms of describing great players. Last year, T-Mac displayed leadership in taking his team to the playoffs. This year he didn't. He was a piss poor leader both on and off the court this past year and his team's record is an influence of it. Let me make a reference and if you understand and follow college basketball you will get this. Look at a players like Chris Duhon. His stats this year were not all that spectacular(10/4/6) however he was one hell of a leader. He was the glue that kept Duke together and he had the respect of everyone because of his leadership. He was considered as a premier PG in college basketball while only averaging mediocre numbers. There were players who had much better numbers but were not considered to be great players. You Tracy McGrady fans are absolutely killing me. I swear to god you think he is the best player alive and is without fall. Wake up and smell the freaking coffee. This year he did not live up to his potential. He was not a top 10 player because he didn't lead his team like he should have. I said this earlier and I will say it again: Tracy McGrady is without a doubt a top 10 talent in this league, however this year he is not worthy of being considered a top 10 player.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Hunter:</div><div class="quote_post">Last year, T-Mac displayed leadership in taking his team to the playoffs. This year he didn't. He was a piss poor leader both on and off the court this past year and his team's record is an influence of it. You Tracy McGrady fans are absolutely killing me. I swear to god you think he is the best player alive and is without fall. Wake up and smell the freaking coffee.[/B]</div> That's the problem with you people , last year he displayed leadership in taking his team to the playoffs? Darrel Armstrong was the leader but ofcourse the Superstart gets the props of being the leader , he has always led by example and last season Darrel was the vocal leader wake up and smell the freaking coffee. I don't think T-Mac fans are more biased than Kobe fans that think he is god and is #1 in every category or mind set you could think of in the NBA. Anyways , have you guys ignored what I say? All NBA teams are done by having the best leader the best clutch player the best defender the best scorer and others , so that makes T-Mac at least a top 10 , don't tell me he isin't a top 10 scorer.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TMac_OwNz:</div><div class="quote_post">That's the problem with you people , last year he displayed leadership in taking his team to the playoffs? Darrel Armstrong was the leader but ofcourse the Superstart gets the props of being the leader , he has always led by example and last season Darrel was the vocal leader wake up and smell the freaking coffee.</div> Darrell Armstrong was the leader of that team last year. Just like Bruce Bowen was the leader of the Spurs, Derek Fisher was for the Lakers, and Kerry Kittles was for the Nets. Whatever you say. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't think T-Mac fans are more biased than Kobe fans that think he is god and is #1 in every category or mind set you could think of in the NBA.</div> What does Kobe have to do with any of this? Did I ever mention Kobe in my explanation? Please explain yourself..I would be enamored to hear your explanation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Anyways , have you guys ignored what I say? All NBA teams are done by having the best leader the best clutch player the best defender the best scorer and others , so that makes T-Mac at least a top 10 , don't tell me he isin't a top 10 scorer.</div> First off TMAC isn't the best leader, he isn't the best clutch player, he isn't the best defender, and he isn't the best scorer IN THE LEAGUE. He might be on his team however when we talk in terms of the league he is NOT the best. He is a great player and is super-talented however for like the 500th time in this thread, "He is not a top 10 player this year". Like I said Tracy has the talent of a top 10 player. In terms of talent he is one of the best players at everything you listed as a whole however this year he WAS NOT. Just because you can score doesn't make you a great player. If he would have displayed leadership he would be worthy of making the NBA All-Star First Team however this year he didn't display it. When did I ever say T-Mac wasn't a top 10 player? I hate it when people use stuff in an argument that I never said. It makes no sense and is rather childish.
I didn't get your answer to Darrel Armstrong being the leader. I'm just saying T-Mac fans don't overrate him as a player , there's no need everybody knows what he is capable of doing. Did I read the right thing? He wasn't the best scorer this year? not even second?? btw who is first ? last time I checked he is the back to back scoring champ.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TMac_OwNz:</div><div class="quote_post">I didn't get your answer to Darrel Armstrong being the leader. I'm just saying T-Mac fans don't overrate him as a player , there's no need everybody knows what he is capable of doing. Did I read the right thing? He wasn't the best scorer this year? not even second?? btw who is first ? last time I checked he is the back to back scoring champ.</div> Actually I take that back, now that I look at it again, Tracy McGrady did lead the league in scoring. I made a mistake. I still stand by my position that he isn't worthy being on the first team. He hasn't been a good leader this year and his team's record is evident of that. All great players can lead and this year he simply didn't. Im am done with this thread because I have said what I have wanted to and im just repeating myself. You are not going to bulge on your position and neither am I. Just to point out he led the league in scoring however I would be suprised if he didn't considering he took over 1500+ shots this year(#2 in the league) and considering how many times he had the ball in his hands. I did answer your question with regard to Darrel Armstrong. You obviously didn't pick up on the sarcasm that I responded with. In my opinion Tracy McGrady was the leader of that team last year. You can say whatever you want that he wasn't however in my basketball mind I think he was. That is what I think and does not necessarily represent what everyone else does.
I do not think Tmac is the greatest player on the planet. I think he's at least top 10 though. I understand what you are saying about leadership, but still that shouldn't drop him out of the top 10. I'm loving it though how he had an "off year" and still had 28 6 5. I wonder how he'll be with an "on year". He had to take 1500+ shots to give the Magic a chance to even be in most games.(seriously we were in most of the games and could very easily be in the playoffs right now if we could close out ball games) He is a playmaker, he makes things happen either by shooting or passing. He's a very underrated passer, IMO. (but remember I'm biased) So basically would he be in your top 10 if he just shut his mouth? Tmac will develop a killer instinct. Now let's just see if our organization can actually do a good job building a team this offseason, rather than starting Lue and Declerq. This might be the last season that we can say Tmac is by himself and has no support at all.
I hate posts like this. Just because a player gets hurt, his stock automatically plummets in this forum. Naming Brad Miller as a better player then T-Mac is ridiculous. Sure he took alot of shots and played alot of minutes, but who else is gonna take those shots and play those minutes on Orlando.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting sportsrock37:</div><div class="quote_post">Yeah, I've mentioned that I am biased, but you guys are biased against Tmac, IMO. I don't understand how someone who avgs 28 ppg 6 rpg 5 apg isn't top 10. I understand about the 19 game losing streak, but that's leadership, not player. Leadership isn't everything. Many good players got on bad teams. (The Admiral the year before they draft TD) Stats should be at least 80% of the decision. It seems like Leadership is 80% to all you guys. Does that mean Bruce Bowen is a top 10 player because he provides leadership, if that's 80% of your decision. Just wait until next year, Orlando will be back. </div> I aint even a spurs fan but u can't diss David Robinson like that...HE WAS INJURED THAT YEAR, missed practically the whole entire season, that just shows how much Robinson meant to that team...I can't believe u even used him as a comparison....
i admit that i may be a bit biased as tmac is one of my favourite players, but the second you put brad miller above him in the top ten list, is the moment when your list is laughed at... sure i like brad milller, but hes no where near the player tmac is.... if he was.. he'd have his own shoe
The question I have for T-Mac is what happened to his D? I remember when he first came to Orlando and ppl's was saying that they would take him over VC in heartbeat because unlike Vince he plays D. Now he really doesn't and I'm thinking to myself what happened? His last year with the Raptors he averaged 1.91 bpg coming off the bench. That's what Orlando really needed from him along with everything else he did offensively because lot of their games was close and come up with big stops and come out with a victory. Then they probaly would've made the playoffs again but not get past the first round are anything like that but it would've helped. So there wouldn't be any debate about him being a top 10 player.
Tmac can't guard all 5 players. Most of the time it's the other guard or sf that gets burned. We have no intimidating pressure downlow and that would improve Tmac's D. I know Declerq and Juwan are pretty intimidating. (sarcasm) I wasn't dissing David Robinson. I was just saying that Tmac isn't the only great player that is on a sorry team. The thing I don't get is how can some of you put C webb on your lists over Tmac? If it's based on this year, C Webb barely played and wasn't too effective. If it's for the career why is Peja and Brad Miller on the list?
