This is being brought up all over the place lately, mostly due to the All-NBA selections. It brings up a debate that I find compelling -- do you rate an individual talent solely on his statistics and obvious 1-on-1 superiority, or does a player's very apparent ability to make teams win and overall 5-on-5 playing abilites, which are much harder to quantify, decide which player is better? In one corner we have T-mac. 39.9 MIN, 23 FGA, 41.7 FG%, 33.9 3PT%, 7.5 FTA, 79.6 FT%, 6 RBDs, 5.5 AST, 2.7 TO, 1.4 STL, .6 BLKS, 28.0 PPG. 19 Wins Pro's as I see them: Scoring leader, quite possibly the best one-on-one perimeter player in the league. Very hard to argue with that stat-line. He is also big, not an easy matchup, and can play 2-3. Con's as I see them: Worst record in league. These guys aren't that bad, and so if T-Mac is indeed a top of the league talent, I am forced to believe that he must also be capable of coaxing more wins out of this squad. Period. 2nd con, he's a scoring SG, the best at it, but SG is a deep position in this league (hence why you can have a premier SG and still be in the cellar). He can get coaches fired. In the other corner we have K-Kidd. 36.6 MIN, 14.3 FGA. 38.4 FG%, 32.1 3PT%, FTA 3.7, 82.7 FT% 6.4 RBDs, 9.2 ASTs, 3.2 TOs, 1.8 STLs, 0.2 BLKS, 15.5 PPG 47 wins. Pro's as I see them: He's the hands-down leader of a Nets team that is fairly successful. He is the best PG, a position that is sparse and yet very strongly correlated with team success. He brings the intangibles. Con's as I see them: He can't shoot. Period. He needs a finisher to be effective. He has a decent squad around him and has had time to mesh. He can get coaches fired. What do you think? Note, I've tried to limit this to a comparison for this season only, otherwise things get even more subjective..
Worldchamps9903, I think it's unfair to compare these players for several reasons. First of all, one player is on the decline and one's on the uprise. Jason Kidd has had 5 first team nominations... McGrady has had one. Jason Kidd is a veteran... McGrady's in his early twenties. I know it's for this season, but you can't compare them for just this season. That'd be like calling Jason Williams better than John Stockton in 2003. It's just wrong. Also, consider that McGrady hasn't had the years to prove himself like Kidd had. Kidd spent a lot of time with the Mavericks and Suns before he really made a name for himself by turning the Nets around. Second of all, they play two different positions. Tracy McGrady's position requires him to score, rebound, dish, and just be an all-around versatile player. He does that. Jason Kidd's role requires him to lead a team and distribute the ball. He does that better than anyone else in the NBA. They are arguably both the best player at their positions. Finally, the Nets team are the back to back Eastern Conference champions and are in the playoffs this year, but McGrady's Magic are one of the league's worst. While you can place a lot of blame on McGrady, their stats would be a hell of a lot different if they switched teams. McGrady would probably get less PPG, RPG, and APG while Kidd would get less APG (arguably). You see, it's just too difficult to compare. That's my final verdict. Anyway, for you viewing pleasure - <ul> [*]In 1995, Jason Kidd was Rookie of the Year. [*]Kidd is a five time NBA first teamer and a one time NBA second teamer. Kobe Bryant has been on the first team twice, Tracy McGrady has been on the first team once, Allen Iverson has been on the first team once, Kevin Garnett has been on the first team once, and the only stars in the NBA who have been on more first teams are Tim Duncan and Shaquille O'Neal (not much competition at Center these last three years). [*]Kidd took a team that was the NBA's dormatt and brought them to the NBA Finals two years in a row without an All-Star (other than himself). [*]Kidd ranks fourth/third (changes daily) all-time in assists per game (behind "O" by 0.1 assists). [*]Kidd is ninth/tenth (changing every day) in steals per game of all-time (over Rick Barry, Clyde Drexler, Gary Payton, etc.) [*]Kidd has lead the NBA for five season in assists, and has been second in assists twice (mostly to Stockton, but once to a fluke year by A.Miller.) Payton never out-assisted Kidd. [*]I was unable to find the Triple-Double records (didn't look REAL hard), but Kidd is definitely a leader. [/list]
Unfair comparison for one really big reason, position. TMac is a shooting guard or small forward and he is called upon for huge scoring numbers. JKidd on the otherhand, is a point guard and is the 3rd scoring option on that team. He is needed largely for his defense and his court vision and leadership capablities. TMac showed this year what kind of a leader he is. I think it was JKidd this year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe Bryant has been on the first team once</div> actually i think he has been on first team 3 or 4 times (i'm not really sure though)
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Mr.Fundamentals:</div><div class="quote_post">actually i think he has been on first team 3 or 4 times (i'm not really sure though)</div> Kobe Bryant has been on it 2 times. I'll edit that. It was part of a very old post I made before the 2003 team was announced. Still, Kidd's been on a lot more.
I think Jason Kidd has around 60 triple doubles in his career. I think he is in the top 3 of all time. You cannot really compare these two now either. How about Shaq vs David Robinson in 2000? Or Karl Malone vs Kevin Garnett now?
I believe Kidd is, better overall game, plus he's a provider and a much more mature player. Many people would play better because of his leadership and ability to make the people around him play better. I'd rather have him alone with say the Suns, like before. Rather than TMac even last season or the season before it.
6 blks on T-Mac stats looked like 6 blks a game at first. That could've really helped the Magic for sure and set a record for all-time average blocks in a season. Anyways, I guess you had to find someone other then Kobe or Vince. Why not Peja Stojakovic, that's different and little more comparible. As for a team, I would rather have J-Kidd because he makes everybody else better.
If Grant Hill were healthy, would we be talking about Tracy McGrady being a non leader? No. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Why not Peja Stojakovic, that's different and little more comparible.</div> Peja has a loaded team with Bibby, Miller, Vlade, Webber, and Jackson, and he really does not need to take a leadership role.
Yeah I agree this is a very unfail comparison...different positions, different players...but if ur talking about who i'd rather want on my team, i'd choose Jason Kidd, simply for his leadership and his ability to make players around him better...
J-Kidd appears to have the better all around game,but they play to different postions and have two different roles to their team so that makes it hard to compare.IN Orlando T-Mac is the scorer,in Jersey J-Kidd is the playmaker.The reason I think Kidd is better overall is because he can have a huge impact on a game without scoring 10 points.
wtf is up with all these 'comparison' threads. I think ill start one and compare Yao Ming and Earl Boykins. Thats how screwed up this is. McGrady and Kidd play different roles...Kidd sets his teammates up and McGrady just does everything. To compare the 2 is unfair bc of their roles, minutes received, shots attempted, dishes made, etc. I could go on for days. all threads like these need to be locked up.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting desmondmason:</div><div class="quote_post">wtf is up with all these 'comparison' threads. I think ill start one and compare Yao Ming and Earl Boykins. Thats how screwed up this is. McGrady and Kidd play different roles...Kidd sets his teammates up and McGrady just does everything. To compare the 2 is unfair bc of their roles, minutes received, shots attempted, dishes made, etc. I could go on for days. all threads like these need to be locked up.</div> They're just for the sake of arguement. It's good to have a debate every now and then. A good comparison in my opinion is Brad Miller and Ben Wallace. I'm not going to make a thread for that, but if one is made I'll definitely join in. Miller's rebounding and block stats are less, but he's twice the offensive player. And with Divac and Webber how can the guy get as many boards as Wallace anyway. That'd be an interesting debate.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post"> Jason Kidd has had 5 first team nominations... McGrady has had one. </div> If I am not mistaken, Tmac has been on the First Team All NBA two times which is in 2002 and 2003.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting timduncan021:</div><div class="quote_post">If I am not mistaken, Tmac has been on the First Team All NBA two times which is in 2002 and 2003.</div> As I said earlier, that part of the post was more than a year old. Also, I skipped over that fact when I went back and edited the post because T-Mac was listen as a forward for some reason.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Wave:</div><div class="quote_post">A good comparison in my opinion is Brad Miller and Ben Wallace. I'm not going to make a thread for that, but if one is made I'll definitely join in. Miller's rebounding and block stats are less, but he's twice the offensive player. And with Divac and Webber how can the guy get as many boards as Wallace anyway. That'd be an interesting debate.</div> I don't see how it would be an interesting debate, Brad is a good player that can score and be effective in the right system but he isn't on Ben Wallace's level and never will be.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllNet:</div><div class="quote_post">I don't see how it would be an interesting debate, Brad is a good player that can score and be effective in the right system but he isn't on Ben Wallace's level and never will be.</div> Start a thread if you want to debate it then. This is for Kidd/TMac debate.
We want debates that are worth while, so I will pass on that suggestion As for this arguement there is no doubt Kidd is the better all-round player. He is also good as we all know that can make his team-mates look better than they really are, or in better sense guys who fit his style of play. However I see don't think either have what It takes to lead their team to a championship, Mcgrady would be better as the 2nd fiddle on a contending team. Kind of like Kobe Bryant has been in his recent 3 championship successes. Mcgrady would be much fitted with Tim Duncan in San Antonio, a guy who can take the pressure off Tim and have a guy to rely on inside when the going gets tough. It would be prefect for both situations and really If this happened some people would be screaming Mcgrady as the best player in the world like of like the Kobe groupies are doing now with Mr Bryant. Kidd would of maybe been better the same as T-mac, difference is Kidd made his decision not to play with Tim Duncan which will turn out to be the biggest mistake he has ever made that will haunt him for the rest of his life. I put these two in the mold of the Charles Barkley's of the world, very good careers, always put up good stats but not quite good enough to get a championship.
