Well, look at this way... if Perovic gets drafted by the Sonics, Stiffy can hook us up with some merch.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RiverspoonJones:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, look at this way... if Perovic gets drafted by the Sonics, Stiffy can hook us up with some merch.</div> For those who are puzzled by this comment, 'Stiffy' is a poster from another board (an Australian football message board to be exact), and is also Kosta Perovic's cousin.
Man playas..what is it with all you Aussie cats that makes ya'll like the Supes? Somethin' in the water over there? :mrgreen:
GM Status With the 12th pick in the draft Luke Jackson should be the last player on the minds of Sonic fans. Not only does he not fill any of the needs of the Sonics, but he is probably the 4th rated small forward coming out this year. Considering the fact that currently the deepest position that the Sonics have is small forward (Lewis, Radman, Sesay) I would think that they would want to bolster their frontline (4 or 5). Personally I do not think that their is an impact player that could provide an immediate upgrade at either the four or the five so if I were the Sonics I would either package the picks with another player or future considerations for a top five pick or admit the fact that Luke Ridnour was a mistake and that Ray Allen is the team's best bargaining chip and draft the best available guard (Jameer Nelson, Sergey Monya) and trade up for a young european project at center/Rafael Araujo. Ray and Radman packaged together could get a Elton Brand and a Bobby Simmons type combination. Flip would not only hold his own as a starter, he would establish himself as one of the best guards in the league. He has an unbelievable upside. Radman would probably bolt via free agency next year so it would make more sense to deal him than Lewis b/c Lewis contract makes him less marketable. Plus Lewis is a much better post player than Vlad and a better perimeter defender. Let Barry walk if he won't sign for 3 years, draft a true lead guard, package Ray w/ either Radman/Ridnour or both for a legitamate 20/10 guy and a servicable wing, and either draft a good two or a young center.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">admit the fact that Luke Ridnour was a mistake</div> You're kidding, right? Ridnour was one of the lone brights spots of this past season. Just about everybody I've heard from agrees that he has the chance to be a very good point guard in the future. As far as Jackson goes, I agree that there's no point in drafting him unless Lewis, Radmanovic, or both are traded. I'd rather trade Lewis, because I don't like his attitude during games. He's good, but he has no fire. I think Radman would be much better at providing some energy at the small forward position. If we give him the chance to start, I think he would resign for sure.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">Man playas..what is it with all you Aussie cats that makes ya'll like the Supes? Somethin' in the water over there? :mrgreen:</div> Nah, I think there's something in the water over there, if no one likes the Sonics
New plan! Ronald 'Flip' Murray + future considerations (future first or multiple second rounders) for Atlanta's pick #17 Select Araujo at #12, Lukey Jackson at #17. Rosters: Ridnour/Daniels Allen/Jackson Radmanovich/Jackson SAR (or equivalent)/Collison Araujo/Potapenko Terry/Duhon Murray/Diaw Sura/Diaw One of Okafor, Howard and Biedrins/Crawford One of Dampier, Camby and Blount (FA signing) If Atlanta throw 10 milly, which is entirely feasible at either of those first two centers, they have themselves a play-off contending roster. If Milwaukee and Denver can turn themselves around, so can these guys.
Am I kidding you? Ridnour, one of the lone bright spots this season? How many DNP CD's did this kid, and I do emphasize kid, have? Who are your sources? This is a man's league and I'm sorry to point out to you, Ridnour is nobody's man. He is quite possibly the worst defender in the league at the point. He can't rebound, can't create his own shot, and to be honest w/ you can't create shots for other people unless he is in the open floor. I liked him in college but never did I think that he would be dubbed the cornerstone for the rebuilding of my favorite sports team. With the exception of Steve Nash (who everyone compares Luke to) all good point guards in this league had a considerable impact on their teams from day one. They aren't competing with the likes of Antonio Daniels for reserve minutes. Ridnour's ceiling for improvement is about as high as this response from this point. This is the problem with Sonic fans. Instead of seeing what is, we would rather see what we think it should be. Radman went into the tank when he was benched for the worst player in the league, Reggie Evans. How do you think he would have felt if Nick Collison would have been healthy? He was given an opportunity to start and he did not take full advantage of it. He played a small forwards game at the power forward position but didn't show that he could consistently get the better of his opponent at either position. His voice (along w/ Ray Allen) was the voice that I heard complaining the most, not Rashard Lewis. Lewis is what he is, a dominant first half player, a mediocre (at best) go-to guy. He is a very good third option. Although that wasn't the biggest endorsement, I could never imagine Radman having the ball in a crucial situation and making a play on his own, or making a defensive stop. He's a streaky, aggressive shooter. He is athletic and has a NBA body. But what about him seperates him from Lewis other than his contract and origin? He's easier to trade than Lewis b/c of his contract and from all indications he seems to want out of Seattle b/c he felt misused this year. Package him w/ Allen (a born loser--another subject altogether) and get that dominant post presence that everyone knows the Sonics lack (to help w/ the development of Collison).
Wow...and I thought I was pessimistic about the Sonics. We'll begin with Ridnour. Not playing in games does not mean he has no future. Rookies do not have to put up ridiculous numbers to have good potential. Considering that he didn't play in summer league and was out until just before the season started, I'd say he made a pretty solid adjustment. The reason he didn't play as much was because he's too frail right now, and needs to work with the training staff to get stronger, which he is likely doing as we speak. He also didn't play some because of his defense, but you're blowing it way out of proportion. The only reason, bolded since I feel strongly about this, that Ridnour got burned on defense was because of his size and lack of strength. He did a remarkable job of staying in front of his man and not backing down against bigger, stronger guards. Not to mention that he would sometimes take the ball from them at will. No, he can't rebound. Do you really think the Sonics expected him to? What he can do is pass and handle the ball. And he can do both better than just about anybody in the league. You say he can't create his own shot, yet he got open by driving to the lane many times (and, yes, he's not a great finisher either). Not to mention that the Sonics are one of the worst teams in the NBA at cutting and getting people open without the ball. Looking through a list of NBA players, you're right when you say that most good points contributed more than Ridnour right away (Gilbert Arenas, Chauncey Billups, Sam Cassell, Troy Hudson are slight exceptions), but that doesn't really discourage me. Fighting for minutes behind Barry and Daniels would be hard for any non-scoring rookie point guard, because Barry and Daniels are good. I'm not going to blame Radman for not excelling when he plays either power forward or limited minutes at small forward. He knows where his strengths are at, although he does need to work on taking better shots. What exactly does Rashard Lewis have to complain about? Not improving like everyone thought he should? Shrinking out of sight when it comes to him being a leader on the team? Getting paid that much money to be lazy on the court? Both he and Radmanovic hit threes late in the game for the Sonics this year. When Lewis was asked to create a shot on his own with the game on the line, though, he often choked. At least Radman tried to drive to the hoop in that situation. What separates him from Lewis is that he can actually be successful at rebounding and defense if he tries, he can penetrate with the ball in his hand much better, he can shoot off the dribble better, and he's not afraid to make his thoughts known, even if it is whining sometimes. I'll agree with you on one point: Allen needs to go if the Sonics cannot get a legit post presence and leader to help him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Casual:</div><div class="quote_post">I'll agree with you on one point: Allen needs to go if the Sonics cannot get a legit post presence and leader to help him.</div> Greg Ostertag!?
Ridnour's #1 Fan? I didn't realize that you felt so passionate about a third string point guard. My only question to you is what will be your excuse when he plays starter's minutes and all of his deficiencies are exploited? Until then, I guess it is good that their is a world of optimism in the Ridnour camp. I don't think that this Sonic team is in that dire of straits, I just think that the leadership is in the wrong hands. Nate McMillian is a young coach who seems to have the backing of upper management. He goes on about how his personnel does not fit his style of basketball, how he may not be the solution to what ails the Sonics, and how he does not feel as though he should develop players at the expense of winning games, and yet he gets ringing endorsements from Rick Sund, Wally Walker, and Howard Schultz (despite missing the playoffs three of the past four years). Rick Sund is a very intelligent GM (despite signing Calvin Booth to a seven year 35 million dollar contract for making one game winner against the Jazz as a Maverick). I grew up the biggest Gary Payton fan alive and I would have loved to see him finish his career as a Sonic, but the fact that they received two (yes, two) franchise players for him (before he left via free agency) and Mason shows that he has a grasp on short term rebuilding. There are a lot of players on the Sonics that other teams are very interested in. The Sonics could get very good, very quickly. The thing that is disturbing to me is that they have an opportunity to see each player up close and personal on an every day basis as professional consultants. At what point does someone step up and say, "We have a player in Ronald Murray that can literally change the perception of this franchise and if other players with bigger contracts are upset w/ that, that is their problem to deal w/." I've watched a lot of basketball in my lifetime but I have not seen a player with as much confidence in his offensive abilities, poise down the stretch of games, and resilience during/from adversity maybe ever. If you never played you do not realize how difficult it is to play junior college ball (b/c of poor grades), stay focus when you are completely out of school for a year playing pick up basketball (b/c of poor grades), reduced to playing Div II ball (b/c of poor grades), being drafted in the second round (no guaranteed contract), sitting on the benched on two teams (behind the likes of Kevin Ollie), and the moment that you get an opportunity to play you instantly become the go to player on the team only to get benched so that the "perceived superstar" won't have a difficult transition back into the lineup. All the while not complaining to the media and continuing to be aggressive when given the opportunity (always believing in yourself when everyone else has written you off). Those flashes that he showed late in the season (in particular the dunk over Zach Randolph late in the Portland game) showed me that this kid is a bona fide star in the making who is not going to be detered from his goals. I know that few will agree with me but I feel that he is the best guard in the league who is 24 years old or younger (w/ the exception of McGrady who turns 25 on 5/24) He and Allen can not coexist and b/c Allen has far better trade value than Flip I think someone in the Sonics' organization has to be bold enough to trade Allen for a legit post presence, regardless of local criticism, and let the young underdog from Philly lead this team to the playoffs.
Wow, I just got home and there's some proverbial mud flying around Let me give me personal thoughts - bear in mind I don't expect everyone to agree. I like Luke Ridnour, and I think he has a future in this league. Nate came out at the start of the season, and said Luke would be held back. He's actually probably played more than anyone would have expected, and IMO has done very well considering the circumstances. There were nights where he struggled, there were also nights where he shone (particularly late season when he completely dominated Steve Nash to the tune of 16 points and 13 assists, while Nash scored something like one field goal). I don't think we'll see what Luke has to offer consistently until at least 2005/06, but if we can hang onto Bones I am not worried. In regards to Luke, I think it's not so much his deficiencies, it's the team he's playing on exploits them. Luke needs to have an offense which involves a lot of cutters and moving without the ball, and he also needs a legitimate shotblocking presence behind him. Take Chauncey Billups and Rip Hamilton for example - I consider both to be average defenders at best, but when you have guys like Ben Wallace and Rasheed protecting the basket, these defensive problems aren't exploited. Luke on the other hand doesn't have this (he should, but Booth and James are hopeless), therefore his defense is exploited a lot more. I still don't think he is that bad a defender, he is just very inconsistent and inexperienced in that area. The only gripe I have is Ridnour may be more suited to a Dallas style offense, which is exactly what we want to try and get away from. Steve Nash is a perfect example of this - he is very small and not a great defender, but he plays in an offense that is perfectly suited to his run and gun type of play, which means people tend to focus on the positives in his game, not the negatives. As for Luke Jackson - as it stands, there would be absolutely no point in drafting him. I just really like the kid as a player, so I was contemplating ways to get him and make it worthwhile. Probably not much point in that, though.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Iron Shiek:</div><div class="quote_post">Those flashes that he showed late in the season (in particular the dunk over Zach Randolph late in the Portland game) showed me that this kid is a bona fide star in the making who is not going to be detered from his goals. I know that few will agree with me but I feel that he is the best guard in the league who is 24 years old or younger (w/ the exception of McGrady who turns 25 on 5/24) He and Allen can not coexist and b/c Allen has far better trade value than Flip I think someone in the Sonics' organization has to be bold enough to trade Allen for a legit post presence, regardless of local criticism, and let the young underdog from Philly lead this team to the playoffs.</div> You read my mind. Ray Allen is a star, no doubt about that. Ray Allen is also a guy that wants and needs the ball in his hands as much as possible. There is no doubt he has been huge for us this season in quite a few games, but at the same time there is no doubt he has taken some questionable shots and made some questionable plays at times, as well. The bottom line is shooting guards/scorers are not nearly as valuable as quality big men in this league. When you have a guy like Flip who has proved he is capable of being a player in this league, and a guy like Ray Allen who will be demanding a probable max extension. Management has to grow some balls and field (and propose) offers for our superstar guard.
They need to field offers for both players and assess the comparative cost:benefit. If we can get a similar deal for Flip as I stated above, we could again boost our squad with a couple of young prospects, obviously at the power positions. Ray Allen can land us a second-tier big man of the Elton Brand ilk (IMO he has considerable higher value than SAR). So do we build around Flip and established big, or keep Ray and load up with maybe 3 prospects (Collison, Araujo?, Perovic?) in the post? At the very least, we need to follow one scheme (nothing in-between) and clear that log-jam, FFS.
If Ray could land us Elton Brand (Maybe possible with Wilcox waiting in the wings), I do that in a heartbeat.
Free Agency Everyone seems to be overly concerned with draft picks and trades that it seems as though the free agent pool has been forgotten. There are a lot of inexpensive veterans that could play a large role in the Sonics future. Mehmet Okur - Lost in the rotation in Detroit could provide a instant impact for the Sonics at both the four and the five (if the Sonics can't trade for Brand) Carlos Arroyo - Young and poised. Can play a grind it out half court game along w/ an uptempo style. Better suited as a backup but is a servicable starter. Could be a steal if Barry walks. Greg Ostertag - Capable rebounder and shot blocker who can battle w/ the more physical posts in the league. Not really in high demand and could be a find if he accepts a drastic paycut (from the 9 million he made last season) Eddie Griffin - Once touted the best pro prosect in the 2001 draft, Griffin would probably play for the league minimum. Could fill a need if either Lewis or Radman is traded. Good shooter and shot blocker w/ a ton of upside, he would be a huge improvement over Reggie Evans, even if he never plays a game. Mike James - Hard working back up that would push whoever was starting at point guard in practice. Not a pure point but is capable of scoring points in bunches. Great team guy and would come very cheap. Udonis Haslem - Again, huge upgrade from Reggie Evans. Size is an issue but effort and determination is not. Capable of a double double in extended minutes. Not much interest so would come relatively cheap. Marquis Daniels - Emerged this year as probably the fourth best rookie. Unbelievable poise for a first year player. A lot of interest around the league. Would Dallas use their mid-level exception to keep him? If Barry walks and Allen is traded he would be the perfect backcourt mate w/ Flip. Would be worth the price to get him (even if it is the mid-level exception). Eric Williams - Nate was a scrappy player and wants to be a scrappy coach. He is one of the scrappiest players in the league and b/c of his sub par season last season, he could come cheaper than expected. My personal opinion. I would do what it takesto lure Marquis Daniels away from Dallas if I can trade Ray w/ Vlad for a legit post (Brand) and a servicable wing (Simmons). I would look to sign Eddie Griffin in hopes that he can turn his life around. If there was enough money left I would try to sign Udonis Haslem as well. Release Reggie Evans, Ritchie Frahm, and Sesay and draft a two guard (Monya) and a center (young euro/Araujo). Projected 2004-2005 team. Marquis Daniels/Antonio Daniels/Luke Ridnour Ronald Murray/Sergey Monya Rashard Lewis/Eddie Griffin/Bobby Simmons/ Elton Brand/Nick Collison/Udonis Haslem Vitaly Potapenko/Jerome James/Calvin Booth/(Draft pick)
Hopefully the Bobcats would pick up one of the bigs who were unprotected (most likely James). That lineup right there would possibly contend for home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs. The additions of Haslem, Simmons, and Griffin would be relatively inexpensive. Flip already makes the league minimum for second year players. Together their salaries shouldn't exceed 3 million. Marquis Daniels would probably sign for less than what the Sonics would pay to keep Barry. (Maybe 3 million) Collison, Ridnour, and the two draft picks are making around 8 million combined. Lewis makes a little over 8 million. Brand makes about 12 million. Booth and Potapenko make about 10 million combined. Together their collective salaries would be roughly 44 million (right at the cap if James is off of the books). They would have problems the following year when Flip becomes a free agent but I would I think that Potapenko would be off of the books by then and his departure would help compensate Flip. That lineup would be young, explosive, and under contract for years to come.
^ I can't see Haslem leaving Miami, and I can't see them letting him go easily. They are a young, exciting team who will be challenging for the East Championship for the next few seasons. As for Daniels, I love this kid, but I know Dallas do too. They are currently trying to trade Jamison and Finley to clear minutes for Daniels and Josh Howard. Would kill to sign the kid, though. If Charlotte take James, I will run down the street naked singing Christmas songs.
Projected Lineups As a newcomer to this message board, I am very interested in hearing different projected lineups for the 2005 season. I realize that getting Haslem is a stretch (especially if we picked up Brand) but I don't think that Dallas is willing to cough up All-Star cash for Daniels (especially considering their payroll). Remember this kid was undrafted last year. Eddie Griffin, although unstable, has yet to have gained the reputation of a disruptive force (his issues are personal and off of the court) and he is only 22. My team would lack experience (especially in the backcourt) and although versatile would still probably have similiar defensive defiencies that plagued them last season (with the exception of defensive rebounding). While reading these posts I have seen a lot of lineups that aren't feasible and considering that I already respect many of the message posters that I have read already, I am very interested in how you would try to put together a long term plan to help what ails the Sonics. Or at the very least, tell me why my lineup would get robbed at gunpoint.
I love your line-up Shiek. Number one priority to me is luring that post presence. My only gripe with obtaining Brand is Sterling is tight with his money, and taking on a guy like Ray who will want close to a max extension might be a big stretch for him. Especially when you consider they may want to lure Kobe. I do sometimes wish we'd held onto Simmons instead of trading him for Drob (although was that pre-agreed like last season's Morlendes for Green deal?) I actually think he could play some good basketball if he got a few minutes, and he would be a super back-up. Tough, and plays defense. In regards to Daniels and Haslem, I am unsure as to whether we would offer more than Dallas and Miami would, and you would think if they could get a similar amount where they were, they would stay. That said however, I would still offer them money in the chance of landing one or both. Haslem may be too small for the West though, he has put up good numbers but in a weak conference in terms of big men. His stats against Western opposition would be interesting, I might try and follow that up later. I think Frahm and Sesay are both free agents. I think Su is, not sure about Richie though. Evans I wouldn't mind hanging on to - non-factor in offense, but he hustles, scraps and defends, something we can't afford to toss away as it stands. Griffin I am undecided on. No doubt he has a lot of talent, but his personal problems have spilled onto the basketball court before. What was his situation in New Jersey anyhow? I know they signed him, but what happened to him? If he came for the minimum then I guess it would be ok, very talented kid. I remember there was talking after his rookie year about trading Lewis for him, and that it would be Houston who wouldn't do it! I do like the way you are thinking though. There is no point building just to be competitive - you build to win a championship, and if your team is not going to challenge, you make changes.
