Is Elton Brand a top 5 Power Forward? How about K-Mart?

Behind Kevin Garnett, Tim Duncan, Jermaine O'Neal, is Elton Brand up there? Is Kenyon Martin better than Elton Brand?

some discussions on this topic has been in progress in the Houston Rockets forum... you guys can read em here:

http://www.justbball.com/forums/showthread...62&page=1&pp=20

I just merely took it out of there and put it here to get more/better feedbacks from everyone. Hope the mods are ok with this.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">You WERE comparing Yao with KG indirectly. You don't even realize what you wrote. Funny.

Who cares if it's in the East? How about, anybody that cares about quality basketball? Like Charles Barkley said, it should be against the law that .500 teams make it to the playoffs. That kind of garbage only happens in the East. You're not being serious about the Nets actually making a run at the championship title are you? No offense to the East fans, but everybody knows the East have no chance. Zero. Yea they win 2 games in the finals, yawn...

League pass is a wonderful thing yes, but again, you really haven't been watching Brand play. I can tell by the way you write and your silly +/- column crap. Like I said before, basketball is more than just about stats. I'll play your statsgame, I'm assuming you're talking about the effectiveness rating from nba.com. If that's the case, Brand's effectiveness rating is +25.01 and Kenyon is +20.28. There's your +/- stats that you highly embrace.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, just because a guy is stuck in a bad team doesn't mean he sucks. You still haven't answered my question about KG. He's damn good and he's been damn good for what, 6 years now? How come I don't see anyone bagging on him for not being able to get out of the first round of playoffs when he averaged numbers that are slightly under Elton's? Everybody knows KG is good, no one bags on him. Everybody also knows Elton Brand is a damn good player too and to be honest, nobody that knows basketball has ever told me Brand isn't a top caliber power forward in the nba. Yes, and by that caliber, I mean higher than Kenyon.

The guy is averaging an MVP-like numbers: 20ppg, 10.3rpg, 2.23 BPG, 49%FG, did pretty much all he can to help the team and yet you still bag on him. Unbelievable. He has done for his team more than Kenyon has done for the Nets. Look at his team, the only real talents he has are Cmag and Q. No offense to them, but they don't play with that much heart in Clippers. Brand plays with heart every single game. He's also not a whiny little bitch *cough*Kenyon*cough* that cries "I've done all I can. My teammates suck!" He just doesn't play that game. Kenyon Martin has Jason Kidd, a triple double machine, AND he plays in the weak ass East where real, tough forwards are as rare as Mo Taylor getting a rebound in a game.

I'm really sick of people saying shit when they really don't know what they're talking about. It's clear to me and everyone else reading this thread that you have no idea who Elton Brand is, you've only seen him play "every once in a while". Do you know how hard he works? Do you know how big his heart is? Do you know he never complains/whines/cries like a punk *cough*Kenyon*cough*? How about you answer these questions for once. If I can't convince you and sports experts can't also, then you're just a lost cause.

I suggest we take this topic out of this thread and put it up in the general forum where everyone can chime in. This is not the proper thread to argue about this. I'll see you there.</div>

Haha... I know I wasn't comparing KG to Yao, you thought I was...

Kidd and Martin have dominated the Least and are still arguably the best team out there, more so now that Jefferson has improved. Since the only team they've ever had to beat in route to the Finals under .500 was the Knicks this year, that Barkely quote doesn't matter much. No, I said they have the best chance of taking the Least for the 3rd straight time, am I still the one with reading problems?

No, I'm not talking about effectiveness rating, I'm talking about +/- ratings, ie. how many points his team scores versus the other while he's on the court. Brand was -4.2, Martin was +4.2, that is a stat I think highly of, I don't see anything wrong with it either it shows production IMO.

I never said Brand sucked, I said he's not a difference maker, and until his teams show he is I'm going to believe that. KG was getting unfairly bagged, even though his team's were never that talented, were never favored in a series and he was still getting an average team in the playoffs in a kill or be killed conference. Until Brand makes his teams better I'm not going to say that he's a premier power foward, talented and hard worker but not top 3 like some of you guys think, and I'll still have him below Martin.

Look it's as simple as this, MVP like players don't play on last place teams, let him average 25 and 15, but if his team is still in last place he will not get an MVP. He hasn't done nearly as much as Martin does for the Nets, take Martin off the Nets and they never make the Finals, take Brand off the Clippers and they still finish in last place. HAHA! I liked that Taylor rip, that dude is a horrible rebounder, probably the worst rebounding PF of all time.

I'll be happy to take it to another thread, starting with this post... Brand is a very talented player, hard worker, he plays with plenty of heart, the only reason I won't rank him too high is that his teams don't seem to get better. That's my bottom line, a player can lead the league in scoring, McGrady, but if his team sucks and is in last place with him I won't respect him.

 

Alot of centers are considered PF's in my opinion so that may push Brand out of the top 5, but he's definitly top 10.

 

Where did you get that +/- thing? I don't see how Brand would have a -4.2 rating.

Besides, it's not all about the ratings. You still have to actually see the player play.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">No, I'm not talking about effectiveness rating, I'm talking about +/- ratings, ie. how many points his team scores versus the other while he's on the court. Brand was -4.2, Martin was +4.2, that is a stat I think highly of, I don't see anything wrong with it either it shows production IMO.</div>

The +/- statistic is garbage...Guys like Deaven George and Luke Walton have a huge +/- advantage over guys like T-mac and Brand...it has very little to do with the player, and a lot to do with the team

Brand is definietly a top 5 powerfoward IMO...

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Q Rich3:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes he is, third in the league in efficienty rating. I cant believe he is so underrated.

KG
Duncan
JO
Brand

He is 4th</div>

He's going to continue to be underrated to you as long as his teams keep losing...

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Where did you get that +/- thing? I don't see how Brand would have a -4.2 rating.

Besides, it's not all about the ratings. You still have to actually see the player play.</div>

The only place I've seen it is on www.82games.com, plenty of good stuff there you should check it out...

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">The +/- statistic is garbage...Guys like Deaven George and Luke Walton have a huge +/- advantage over guys like T-mac and Brand...it has very little to do with the player, and a lot to do with the team

Brand is definietly a top 5 powerfoward IMO...</div>

They have the advantage over McGrady because he was a straight scrub this season, 19 losses in a row, no truly great player in the NBA would do that, especially while playing in the JV conference. The year before he had a pretty good rating, this season he gets a slightly more talented team but the problem with that is that they need the ball to play well, T-Mac no like that, T-Mac no like defense either.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Q Rich3:</div><div class="quote_post">Yes he is, third in the league in efficienty rating. I cant believe he is so underrated.

KG
Duncan
JO
Brand

He is 4th</div>

I think he's actually better than J.O. .. Trade Elton & Jermaine and Pacers would win more games I think...

 

NO WAY HE IS 4th.

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. J.O.
5. Elton Brand

Brand hasn't taken his team anywhere and KG is on before Dirk because he has an MVP title. Before Dirk where have the Mavericks been huh???

 

Is Elton an even better PF than Kenyon Martin? I personally don't think it's not even close. Elton is the better PF, plays with more heart, doesn't whine like a lil b*tch, and for what it's worth, averages better numbers.



Oh, and Elton doesn't have a the best PG in the NBA to play aside.

 

Elton Brand meybe. Kmart, not even cloooooooose

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting samoan-maverick:</div><div class="quote_post">NO WAY HE IS 4th.

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. J.O.
5. Elton Brand

Brand hasn't taken his team anywhere and KG is on before Dirk because he has an MVP title. Before Dirk where have the Mavericks been huh???</div>


Come on man, be realistic.. I like Dirk as much as the next guy, but he's as one-dimensional as they come.. To say he's better than Jermaine O'Neal and Brand is like saying Pontiacs are better than Jaguars because they get more gas mileage..

Scoring-wise, Nowitzki is DEFINATELY a top 5 PF.. Hell, I'll go one step further and say he's the top scoring threat PF in the league.. However, factoring all equasions in, he's not in the same league as guys like Duncan, Brand, J.O and KG.

As for the question, make no mistake about it, Brand is a top 5 PF. He may not be the "difference maker" that KG or Duncan are, but when it comes down to pure productivity, Brand is a consistent 20-10 threat on a team that 9/10ths of the time is garbage.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Is Elton an even better PF than Kenyon Martin? I personally don't think it's not even close. Elton is the better PF, plays with more heart, doesn't whine like a lil b*tch, and for what it's worth, averages better numbers.



Oh, and Elton doesn't have a the best PG in the NBA to play aside.</div>

Plays with more heart then K-Mart, are you kidding me? Its hard to argue that any PF in the League plays with more heart & Passion then K-Mart. There are power forwards with more offensive skill then K-Mart but heart I dont think so.

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ThaLord:</div><div class="quote_post">I think he's actually better than J.O. .. Trade Elton & Jermaine and Pacers would win more games I think...</div>Huh? What are you smoking??? I think there is a reason why JO has the best team record in the NBA and was a runner up for MVP. Why is Brand better?

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting samoan-maverick:</div><div class="quote_post">NO WAY HE IS 4th.

1. Duncan
2. KG
3. Dirk
4. J.O.
5. Elton Brand

Brand hasn't taken his team anywhere and KG is on before Dirk because he has an MVP title. Before Dirk where have the Mavericks been huh???</div>
I don't even consider Dirk to be a power foward. He sure as hell don't play like one

 

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Huh? What are you smoking??? I think there is a reason why JO has the best team record in the NBA and was a runner up for MVP. Why is Brand better?
</div>

Look beyond the record... When you'd change JO and Elton the record wouldn't change... I think they're about equal, but Brand hands out more assists and has a much better shooting percentage... That's why I would rather pick Brand than Jermaine to build a franchise around...

 

Dirk is not top 3, you have to factor in offensive and defensive ability, and defence is where he lacks (to say the least)

and that +/- statistic is totally useless....it all depends on your teamates and how good your team is. You put a player like Garnett on the Magic team and his +/- rating would be mediocre too. They have that statistic in the NHL and the players with the highest +/- are on the best teams or are playing with the best players

1. Garnett
2. Duncam
3. Jermaine
4. Brand
5. Nowitzki

 

Jermaine O'neal - <font color="SandyBrown">20.1 ppg</font>, 10.0 rbs, 2.1 asst, .76 stls, <font color="SandyBrown">2.55 blks</font>, .434 fg%, FG attempts per game 17.9


Elton Brand - 20.0 ppg, <font color="Red">10.3 rbs</font>, <font color="Red">3.3 assts</font>, <font color="Red">.93 stls</font>, 2.23 blks, <font color="Red">.493</font> fg%, FG attempts per game <font color="Red">14.2</font>


Honestly, you can make a case for Brand being better than J.O....its real close to me, however, its hard to argue against the fact that Brand is statisically better...

JO only gets the nudge in blocks...he scores one-tenth of a point more by taking almost 4 more atempts so I'm not gonna count that as an "advantage"...

 

^He is statistically better but he doesn't even have a .500 record? When do stats make you a better player in the first place. Don't give me the arguement about being in the East as well. JO has the best record in the NBA and that should count for something at least.

What if Brand was put on a team with more talent? Would he still have the same type of stats anways? The fact is: With his stats he still can't lead a team to a .500 record. That should speak for itself.

 

Brand is definately a top 5 power forward, and I'd say he's tied at 3rd place with JO.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Plays with more heart then K-Mart, are you kidding me? Its hard to argue that any PF in the League plays with more heart & Passion then K-Mart. There are power forwards with more offensive skill then K-Mart but heart I dont think so.</div>
I don't know if K-Mart plays with more heart, they might be about the same, Brand is probably one of the best guys at hustling, why do you think he gets all those offensive rebounds, and the thing about him is he plays with so much heart and passion while keeping himself composed, why do you think he was a nominee for the Sportsmanship award.

Also about the +/- rating I explained it in the other thread:


<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "Me":</div><div class="quote_post">In the beginning of the season which is when Brand was out, they were still losing, then Brand came back, they improved, but then they have spurts in which Maggette and Q-Rich were both out which is what mainly brought down Brands +/- rating, not because he was hurting the team. In March and April, their were 7 games combined without both of them and several games with one and not the other. 2 games in Jan & February without both,

Jaric also missed the whole of April and only played 3 games in March while Maggette and Q-Rich were also out. Now in the beginning of the season, all these guys were together.

You can even see they started off alright, Brand came back they went pretty good, then injuries came in, then in March and April when Jaric, Wilcox and Q-Rich were out for almost all of it, and Maggette out once in a while they went 3-21 which is what gives Brand the bad rating, what do you expect him to do with Q-Rich, Doug Overton, Bobby Simmons and Kaman, or Keyoon Dooling in place of Overton, that was for the three games Q-Rich played in April, then Maggette, Dooling, Overton and Kaman for the rest of April, and March had a mixture of those two lineups with Matt Barnes starting sometimes. Even the best bench player Wilcox was injured, I don't know what you expected.

Now let me show you the big stat, the players that played most of those losing games were Brand and Kaman playing all, then Dooling, Overton, Eddie House, Matt Barnes, Drobnjak, and Ely was on the roster but didn't play so doesn't count.
Now look at the +/- ratings, and out of all those players who had the highest one, tell me....


<u>These are the guys that played most or all of those games:</u>
Player (On Court) [Off-Court] (Team Net)

Brand (-4.2) [-5.8] (+1.6)

Overton (-4.3) [-4.8] (+0.5)

Kaman (-5.6) [-3.9] (-1.8)

Dooling (-6.8) [-3.8] (-3.0)

House (-8.5) [-3.1] (-5.4)

Drobnjak (-11.7) [-2.5] (-9.2)

Barnes (-13.3) [-2.8] (-10.4)

Livingston (-26.0) [-4.4] (-21.6)

See how they're last on the +/- rankings for the Clippers, and Brand still has the highest one.</div>