1. Garnett 2. Duncan 3-4. JO/Brand 5. Nowitzki I would put Jermaine O' Neal above Brand just because his team had the best record in the league by far, they are about as close as it gets though. Also, Brand has played 60-70 games each of the last 2 years. But, its still amazing what Brand does even with his 6'8" height.
Elton Brand doesn't have nearly as much help as JO does in the Pacers. Plus, did I mention he's in the East? Yeah, the Pacers have the best record in the NBA, I'm not taking anything away from them, but think of it this way, most of the time it takes at least TWO star players out here in the West to be able to make it in the playoffs. Brand doesn't have another star player next to him. Cmag and Q are not stars. Yet. Andre Miller didn't work well in the Clippers chemistry. Watch the old games and you'll see. Dirk is not and never will be a power forward. Like someone mentioned, he's a SF trapped in a PF body. Think of him as a taller Shawn Marion minus the athleticism and you have Dirk. Chris Webber WAS a PF. Now he's an immobile PF that happens to have a nice shooting touch. Did everybody forget that he was a force down low when he was healthy back in the days? That guy would've dunked most of the layups he threw up nowadays. He just doesn't have the legs anymore. After all these posts, I still don't see anything that warrants Kmart to be a better power forward than Elton Brand. Someone mentioned that a team's success is indicative of how good a player is.... That was a good laugh. Do you mean to say Tmac is a scrub because his team sucks? Besides KG, Duncan and maybe JO, I don't see anyone that's better than Elton at the 4 spot. JO and Elton are two different power forwards so it's kinda hard to compare them two, but I'm willing to bet that if JO and Elton were swapped the Pacers would have about the same success if not better. This man AVERAGED 4.3 OFFENSIVE rebounds in his career as a 6'8 Power Forward. Whether he's in a good team or not, that's 4.3 offensive boards against the whole league you cannot deny. That to me, is a difference maker. Not even KG or Duncan gets NEAR to that. Elton Brand is the most underrated power forwards of modern basketball. Maybe even of all time. It's a shame he's stuck in bad teams.
1. KG 2. TD 3. JO 4. Elton Brand I consider Elton Brand top 5 defintely...hes a consistent 20 ppg/ 10 rpg every night...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">^No one is blaming Elton for the losing but he does have some part in it does he not? He is still part of the team. Indiana does not have a much better point guard than LA does either. Actually Tinsley was benched for a good part of the season in favour of Kenny Anderson and Anthony Johnson.</div> lol, trust me, if any of those three pgs were on the clipps, they would be starting. When it all comes down to it, the clippers lose because they are the clippers... People who don't get to see Brand play a lot often undervalue his abilities. I'll be the first to admit I was one of them...When he was in Chicago, I really didn't buy into him being an elite powerfoward....but once I got to see him a lot, he impresses me more and more....for an undersized PF, he is an amazing defender... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">If Brand was on a team that was contending with a good level of talent around him, would he still be averaging the same stats? I think not.</div> Do I think Brand would put up the same type of stats on a better team? Yes I do...and I'll explain why... first of all, he'd get his defensive stats (blks stls) anywhere...Clippers do miss a lot of shots, but Brand is a tenacious rebounder, I don't think anybody would argue that....as for his scoring, just look at the Field Goals attempted per game....Despite his superiority over his teammates, it's not like he takes the bulk of the Clipper shot attempts...He only averages 14 field goal attemps a game...he's the type of player that can give u 15 pts without having a single play run to him the entire game....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">Elton Brand doesn't have nearly as much help as JO does in the Pacers. Plus, did I mention he's in the East? Yeah, the Pacers have the best record in the NBA, I'm not taking anything away from them, but think of it this way, most of the time it takes at least TWO star players out here in the West to be able to make it in the playoffs. Brand doesn't have another star player next to him. Cmag and Q are not stars. Yet.</div>What?? Brand had Odom, Maggette, Richardson and Andre Miller on his team last year. Are these guys not talented?? It takes two superstars to make it? Well....the Clippers had 3 and a half and still didn't make it. Brand had a good cast around him last year and they just couldn't mesh enough to win half of it's games. Is it partly his fault? Hell yeah. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">lol, trust me, if any of those three pgs were on the clipps, they would be starting. When it all comes down to it, the clippers lose because they are the clippers...</div>But would it propel them to the playoffs by having any one of those point guards? I really don't think so. The fact is that Brand has never led his team to the playoffs at all in his career. He is the star player on the team and he has to be accountable for those losses. I'm stating the fact that winning DOES mean something when talking about the best power fowards in the game. I am not disparaging his abilities at all but rather the fact that he has averaged 20 and 10 since he came to the league has never been able win half of his games ever in a season ever. I hate to bring this up but he also played with Andre Miller last year and still didn't break .500 Now to say that there were not other issues at hand regarding why they were losing <font size="1">(I think there were three players on contract years)</font> but he did play on a team with a great amount of talent and a great point guard that just couldn't produce at the time. He just didn't win. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">People who don't get to see Brand play a lot often undervalue his abilities. I'll be the first to admit I was one of them...When he was in Chicago, I really didn't buy into him being an elite powerfoward....but once I got to see him a lot, he impresses me more and more....for an undersized PF, he is an amazing defender...</div>I never doubted his talent ever. If I did I wouldn't make him my 4th best power foward and own his jersey <font size="1">(the black rewind one if you wanted to know). </font><font size="2">I don't think I am undervaluing him. Some may be overvaluing his talent when putting him over JO as a power foward.</font> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Do I think Brand would put up the same type of stats on a better team? Yes I do...and I'll explain why... first of all, he'd get his defensive stats (blks stls) anywhere...Clippers do miss a lot of shots, but Brand is a tenacious rebounder, I don't think anybody would argue that....as for his scoring, just look at the Field Goals attempted per game....Despite his superiority over his teammates, it's not like he takes the bulk of the Clipper shot attempts...He only averages 14 field goal attemps a game...he's the type of player that can give u 15 pts without having a single play run to him the entire game....</div>Does this make him a better player than JO because he has less field goal attempts? If this makes him a better player then he should take more shots to help his team win half of it's games for once in his career. I know JO did. Statistically JO and Brand are about the same regarding rebounds, blocks and steals so how does bringing this up make him a better player? If anything I would see his scoring drop below 20 if he has the talent around him. JO might play in a weaker division but he was able to attain the best record in the NBA this year and be a runner-up for MVP. What does that tell me? That he makes his teammates better and he's winning games plain and simple. I am not doubting the fact that Brand is talented, as a matter of fact he is one of the best power fowards in the game today. Just not the top 3. Not over Duncan, Garnett or O'neal.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> I hate to bring this up but he also played with Andre Miller last year and still didn't break .500 Now to say that there were not other issues at hand regarding why they were losing <font size="1">(I think there were three players on contract years)</font> but he did play on a team with a great amount of talent and a great point guard that just couldn't produce at the time. He just didn't win. </div> Like I said, and u pointed out yourself, the Clippers will be the Clippers... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Does this make him a better player than JO because he has less field goal attempts? If this makes him a better player then he should take more shots to help his team win half of it's games for once in his career. I know JO did. Statistically JO and Brand are about the same regarding rebounds, blocks and steals so how does bringing this up make him a better player? If anything I would see his scoring drop below 20 if he has the talent around him. </div> I think u missed my point on this one.....Again, I'm not trying to make a case that Brand is better...I was merely answering your question on whether I think Brand would put up the same numbers with a better supporting cast, and my answer was YES...MY point with the shot attempt argument is that its not like Brand scores his points because his team can't. He only shoots about 14 times a game...If he were on a better team, I would expect him to get the same shot attempts, so his scoring would be about the same. That has nothing to do with JO...it was just an argument on why Brand would maintain his scoring...
I feel K-Mart is, he does so much for his team. Brand has the stats and skill to be, but not as much to the effect or impact. Both are undersized yet amazing shot blockers, that alone should sanctify the fact that they're definitely top tier.
I would pick Brand, K-Mart have the best PG in the NBA, maybe top 5 of all time, the Nets is Jason Kidd's team, his ppg wouldn't be as high as it is without Kidd's great passing.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">What?? Brand had Odom, Maggette, Richardson and Andre Miller on his team last year. Are these guys not talented?? It takes two superstars to make it? Well....the Clippers had 3 and a half and still didn't make it. Brand had a good cast around him last year and they just couldn't mesh enough to win half of it's games. Is it partly his fault? Hell yeah. </div> Odom only played 49 games, Maggette 64 games, and Q-rich only 59 games, even Brand was only in there for 62 games, and Kandi missed almost the whole year and only played 36 games. That's an average of 28 games missed between the 5 guys. Or if we just want to go Brand, Odom and Maggette, an average of 24 games missed between those 3. Andre Miller was the lone survivor of the season playing 80 games. It was kinda like one of those Raptor seasons. You see I was hoping they could all stay together, Brand, Odom, Kandi, Dre but with them actually liking him, Maggette and Q-Rich, and with them also not being injured so much. If that had happened, we likely wouldn't be having the Brand doesn't win argument right now.
^What og wrote. Courtvision: Q and Cmag weren't as good as they are now. They've improved this year. Dre Miller, like I said, didn't mesh well with the team for some reason. By the way, how come nobody addressed some of the points I've brought up in my previous post? I'll paste them under here for your convenience. I just don't get it.. the guy averages 20ppg 10rpg (4 Offensive boards career average in there, nobody can touch that), 2.3bpg on a 50% FG shooting. What else do you want a guy to do? Please, I really want to hear. How come Tmac gets so much respect for carrying the Magic to nowhere but not Brand? Show some respect. Sure Tmac's been to the eastern playoffs, but come on, the Clippers could've gone to the Eastern playoffs too. Kmart isn't ANYWHERE near Brand without Kidd. Not even close. He was a 12ppg 7rpg player before Kidd arrived in NJ. Not even close to Brand who was a 20ppg 10rpg player AS A ROOKIE. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">After all these posts, I still don't see anything that warrants Kmart to be a better power forward than Elton Brand. Someone mentioned that a team's success is indicative of how good a player is.... That was a good laugh. Do you mean to say Tmac is a scrub because his team sucks? Besides KG, Duncan and maybe JO, I don't see anyone that's better than Elton at the 4 spot. JO and Elton are two different power forwards so it's kinda hard to compare them two, but I'm willing to bet that if JO and Elton were swapped the Pacers would have about the same success if not better. This man AVERAGED 4.3 OFFENSIVE rebounds in his career as a 6'8 Power Forward. Whether he's in a good team or not, that's 4.3 offensive boards against the whole league you cannot deny. That to me, is a difference maker. Not even KG or Duncan gets NEAR to that. Elton Brand is the most underrated power forwards of modern basketball. Maybe even of all time. It's a shame he's stuck in bad teams.</div>
my top five; kg, tim duncan, j.oneill, elton brand and rasheed wallace. i exclude k-mart from my list because i don't think he's a consistent enought low post threat and his jump shot is suspect. all my crticisms against him are just on the offensive game, the other dimensions i think he's up there with the others expect maybe rebounding with my top four. rasheed to me is such an explosive player that i have to include him; he's a brilliant passer, has the best range on his shot out of the top five and now we realize he can be a defensive stopper. remember this list in the next three years or so because i think chris bosh will be on that list soon.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said Brand was better than JO because he puts up better statistics...I said u can make an argument for him...statistics is obviously just one aspect...</div>I thought this was the original arguement? I thought you were making an arguement for him as to why he could be better. As for the fact of his statistics staying the same I don't agree. If Brand plays with a legit centre <font size="1">(ex. Erick Dampier) </font><font size="2">his scoring, rebounds and blocks will go down. He will see a slight dip in his stats not a huge difference but if you put Erick's 12 points, 12 boards and 2 blocks beside Brand you are looking at one hell of a pair.....but his stats will go down. </font> <font size="2"></font> <font size="2">Elton has been looked upon as the ONLY inside presence LA has. You put another person in the paint to grab boards, block shots...not to mention score more points with Brand and you are looking at a slight decline in statistics. One of the reasons he does what he does is because the team relies on him to do that. He is their star player.</font> <font size="1"><font color="#ff0000">This is all hypothetical but this is a hypothetical arguement. </font></font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">Elton has been looked upon as the ONLY inside presence LA has. You put another person in the paint to grab boards, block shots...not to mention score more points with Brand and you are looking at a slight decline in statistics. One of the reasons he does what he does is because the team relies on him to do that. He is their star player.</div> Brand played with Olowokandi for 2 years did he not? Last year not that much, but while Kandi was there his number's didn't drop, and in 2001-2002, he averaged even more rebounds while Kandi played 80 games. In 2000-2001 he had Brad Miller, but Miller wasn't playing that many minutes, but he also had Michael Ruffin on his team. The best year was when Brand, McInnis, Q-Rich, Maggette and Kandi were all playing and healthy, I like Odom but he hurt them sometimes. That was in 2001-2002 when the Clippers went 39-43 and were the 9th seed in the West. If McInnis had stayed, he was the leader of the team man, he had his problems but he just knew how to run the team well.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Brand played with Olowokandi for 2 years did he not? Last year not that much, but while Kandi was there his number's didn't drop, and in 2001-2002, he averaged even more rebounds while Kandi played 80 games.</div> Huh? In 2003 Olowokandi played 36 games. You fail to mention that in your post. Not to mention that Brands scoring numbers went down slightly as well. There is your proof. His rebounds went up but Olowokandi is not exactly considered the toughest rebounder. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">In 2000-2001 he had Brad Miller, but Miller wasn't playing that many minutes, but he also had Michael Ruffin on his team.</div> Miller was not a factor in Chicago so why bring him up? BTW isn't Michael Ruffin a small foward/Power foward? Career average of 2 points and 5 boards a game? I don't think he made any difference at all in Brands game. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">The best year was when Brand, McInnis, Q-Rich, Maggette and Kandi were all playing and healthy, I like Odom but he hurt them sometimes. That was in 2001-2002 when the Clippers went 39-43 and were the 9th seed in the West. If McInnis had stayed, he was the leader of the team man, he had his problems but he just knew how to run the team well.</div> The plain fact is: He has not had a .500 record at all in his career in the NBA and thats a fact that no one can dispute. Stop making excuses for him, he does have a hand in that losing as well. If he actually makes the playoffs for once in his career he MAY just get into my top 3. But right now he is 4th.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">Huh? In 2003 Olowokandi played 36 games. You fail to mention that in your post. Not to mention that Brands scoring numbers went down slightly as well. There is your proof. His rebounds went up but Olowokandi is not exactly considered the toughest rebounder</div> How did I not mention it? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "og15":</div><div class="quote_post">Last year not that much, but while Kandi was there his number's didn't drop,</div> Last year being 2003 Also not to mention he got 12.6 shots a game, and Kandi isn't a bad rebounder, common, in about 37 minutes a game he averages 10 rebounds. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Miller was not a factor in Chicago so why bring him up? BTW isn't Michael Ruffin a small foward/Power foward? Career average of 2 points and 5 boards a game? I don't think he made any difference at all in Brands game.</div> You make it seem like Miller was bad, he averaged 8.9 points, and 7.4 rebounds in 25 minutes. I was also mentioning Ruffin because I thought you were saying his rebounds would go down, and Ruffin is a beast on the baords, averaged 5.8 rebounds in 20 minutes that year. Also JO only has Foster, good rebounder. If it was Cliff Robinson then I'd understand because he's like the worst rebounding PF. They aren't really excuses, I'm just telling the truth.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> As for the fact of his statistics staying the same I don't agree. If Brand plays with a legit centre <font size="1">(ex. Erick Dampier) </font><font size="2">his scoring, rebounds and blocks will go down. He will see a slight dip in his stats not a huge difference but if you put Erick's 12 points, 12 boards and 2 blocks beside Brand you are looking at one hell of a pair.....but his stats will go down. </font> </div> Chris Kaman 6.1 ppg, 5.6 rbs. .89 blks <u>Chris Wilcox 8.6 ppg, 4.7 rbs, .31 blks</u> Total...14.7 ppg, 10.3 rbs, 1.2 blks That's not that bad production from the Clippers center position <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post"> <font size="2"></font> <font size="2">Elton has been looked upon as the ONLY inside presence LA has. You put another person in the paint to grab boards, .</font> </div> As far as rebounding, you forget that the Clippers are full of rebounders. Just look at their starting PG-SG-SF position... Q-rich averages 6.4 rbs, C-Maggs averages 5.9 rbs Jaric averages 4.8 rbs <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">block shots...not to mention score more points with Brand and you are looking at a slight decline in statistics. One of the reasons he does what he does is because the team relies on him to do that. He is their star player</div> and My point is that it wouldn't because while he is their BEST player, the offense does not run through him...He's not like T-mac where the team goes to him on every play...A good chunk of his shot attempts are from put backs...They don't "rely" on him as much as you think (altho they probably should). Also, many of Elton Brands blocks are on his own man...I'm not too sure it would decrease much with another presence
I Think Brand Is The Offensive Rebounder In The NBA, He Can Shoot, Terrific Swatter, And Just A Damn Good Player, That Doesn't Get His Earned Respect.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Kmart isn't ANYWHERE near Brand without Kidd. Not even close. He was a 12ppg 7rpg player before Kidd arrived in NJ. Not even close to Brand who was a 20ppg 10rpg player AS A ROOKIE.</div> Well Iam not here to debate who better Martin or Brand its a matter of opinion but to compare what K-Mart did fresh out of college into the NBA to what Elton Brand did fresh out of college is pretty unfair. Elton Brand came into the NBA thru a bunch of systems that breed nothing but NBA players. First he grew up playing in All Hollows in NY. All they do is breed nba players who have excellent fundamentals Mark Jackson etc., Another player who grew jump threw all hollows is Ron Artest, kenny Anderson people start playing & getting assistance at a young age. Like I said thats like an NBA breeding ground legends like Connie Hawkins grew up thru that system. And then in colllege he went to Duke, we all the the history & how much they focus on on fundamentals. We all know coach K And they pretty much build their players for the NBA as well. Not to take nothing away for Brand but he was breeded for the NBA, he was taught the game in every single way. So to compare him to a guy who went to college & played under Bobby Huggins, who to me has seems to run a syastem that really focuses on athletism rather then skill is pretty unfair. It was clear to everybody that K-Mart wasnt taught the game the proper way when he was drafted. So he pretty much had to learn the game on the fly. And I dont think you can credit all of Martins' improvements to just J.Kidd. Martin works on his offensive game every offseason. And adds something knew to it. When K-Mart 1st came into the league his back to the basket game was horrible. But in the 2002 off season he worked on it & you could see the improvements in the 2002-03 season. And know this season he has become a legit post threat who often gets double teamed on the low -block in the half-court. And the improvent in K-Marts shooting range is notable as well. K-Mart improved large in part do to his offseason work ethic. And lets not forget that his rookie year he played with Steph(who have rumored to be called out by other young players for taking to many shots which I guess they felt didnt help their growth as a player, Keith Van Horn in his Nets days & even Amare Stoudmire) & Martin also had his problems with Marbury
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Chris Kaman 6.1 ppg, 5.6 rbs. .89 blks <u>Chris Wilcox 8.6 ppg, 4.7 rbs, .31 blks</u> Total...14.7 ppg, 10.3 rbs, 1.2 blks That's not that bad production from the Clippers center position</div>I was talking about one player, not two. It's not like you can mesh these two together and come up with those stats. Doesn't Wilcox come in to spell Brand at times as well? If you don't think his production will go down just look at the 2002-2003 season. With Odom, Mags, Richardson, Miller and Kandi he averaged a lower scoring average. He did raise his rebounding but his scoring went down the same amount. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">As far as rebounding, you forget that the Clippers are full of rebounders. Just look at their starting PG-SG-SF position... Q-rich averages 6.4 rbs, C-Maggs averages 5.9 rbs Jaric averages 4.8 rbs</div>These guys don't man the paint and control the lane. Look at Kaman and tell me that as a centre he shouldn't be averaging more boards and blocks. I know he's not capable but that just proves my point. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">and My point is that it wouldn't because while he is their BEST player, the offense does not run through him...He's not like T-mac where the team goes to him on every play...A good chunk of his shot attempts are from put backs...They don't "rely" on him as much as you think (altho they probably should).</div>Back to my original point then: Does this make him better than O'neal in any way at all? He may do some things better but that doesn't necessarily make him better. I look at the team records because the stats are too similar. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Also, many of Elton Brands blocks are on his own man...I'm not too sure it would decrease much with another presence</div>I will give you that one because I don't see him play enough to know that. I'm sure a block or two comes from helping out one of his defenders no? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">How did I not mention it? Last year being 2003 Also not to mention he got 12.6 shots a game, and Kandi isn't a bad rebounder, common, in about 37 minutes a game he averages 10 rebounds.</div>Because you didn't bother to pay creedance to that fact at all rather just talking about 2002 not about the fact that Brand's scoring went down in 2003. Would you really consider Olowokandi a serious centre in 2002 anyways? He had potential but I don't remember him being above average. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">You make it seem like Miller was bad, he averaged 8.9 points, and 7.4 rebounds in 25 minutes. I was also mentioning Ruffin because I thought you were saying his rebounds would go down, and Ruffin is a beast on the baords, averaged 5.8 rebounds in 20 minutes that year. Also JO only has Foster, good rebounder. If it was Cliff Robinson then I'd understand because he's like the worst rebounding PF. They aren't really excuses, I'm just telling the truth.</div>I never made it seem that Miller was bad but in all honesty that Bulls team just couldn't get it together despite Brands 20 and 10...kind of like how his whole career sounds. I wouldn't exactly call Ruffin a beast on the boards either <font size="1">(now thats exaggerating)</font> . He did only play 45 games with Brand in when he averaged 5 boards, but I'm not even going to even touch on how bad he is. Brand does not = .500 record in the NBA If he did I would not be mentioning it that much. We can talk about if he was on a good team and whatnot but the plain fact stands that he has not even broken .500 yet in his career.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">I was talking about one player, not two. It's not like you can mesh these two together and come up with those stats. Doesn't Wilcox come in to spell Brand at times as well? </div> Wilcox and Kamen are the Clippers' center by committee...so I don't see why I can't mesh their stats.. Regardless, my point was that the clippers are any weaker at center than the average NBA team....lemme explain again...you said this... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> If Brand plays with a legit centre (ex. Erick Dampier) his scoring, rebounds and blocks will go down. Elton has been looked upon as the ONLY inside presence LA has. You put another person in the paint to grab boards, block shots... One of the reasons he does what he does is because the team relies on him to do that. He is their star player.</div> but the same can be said for most of the good power fowards in the league...Who is Jermaine O'neals center this year? Who is Tim Duncan's center this year? Who is Kmarts center? Who is KG's center? I can maybe even argue that the Clippers centers put up better numbers than the other dominant powerfoward's centers.... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">These guys don't man the paint and control the lane. Look at Kaman and tell me that as a centre he shouldn't be averaging more boards and blocks. I know he's not capable but that just proves my point.</div> No, he's a rookie, and he had a fine year in limited minutes (considering he came from a small school too). He averaged 12 rebounds per 48 minutes...that's even higher than Chris Bosh <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Back to my original point then: Does this make him better than O'neal in any way at all? He may do some things better but that doesn't necessarily make him better. I look at the team records because the stats are too similar.</div> I'm not arguing your original point...I'm arguing agaisnt the fact that you are trying to diminish Brand's statistics because he is a clipper
