<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Wilcox and Kamen are the Clippers' center by committee...so I don't see why I can't mesh their stats..</div> Because most of the time Wilcox is used to spell time for Brand. Sure they would play together at some point during the game but most of Wilcox' production would come with Brand being on the bench no? <font size="1">Correct me if I'm wrong I don't watch the Clips play much, I'm basing this on positions</font> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Regardless, my point was that the clippers are any weaker at center than the average NBA team....lemme explain again...you said this... but the same can be said for most of the good power fowards in the league...Who is Jermaine O'neals center this year? Who is Tim Duncan's center this year? Who is Kmarts center? Who is KG's center? I can maybe even argue that the Clippers centers put up better numbers than the other dominant powerfoward's centers....</div> It was purely hypothetical what I did and I was just making a case on how his stats would decline had he had a centre like Dampier to play with. You say the Clippers are below average at the centre so I added an above average centre to prove my point. My arguement wasn't about the bad Clippers centres rather "What if" Brand played with Dampier. Would his stats be the same? I think they would see a slight reduction. You made it out to think that he would never see a decline in his production and I just pointed out a scenario where it could happen. <font size="1"><font color="red">Hypothetically speaking of course</font></font> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">No, he's a rookie, and he had a fine year in limited minutes (considering he came from a small school too). He averaged 12 rebounds per 48 minutes...that's even higher than Chris Bosh</div> Game you know as well as I do that the 48 minutes stat is BS. Let's just see when he plays heavy minutes rather than bringin up that stat. It's like you are pointing out that he's a better rebounder than Bosh due to that stat, which we both know is not the case. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">I'm not arguing your original point...I'm arguing agaisnt the fact that you are trying to diminish Brand's statistics because he is a clipper</div> Okay we agree on the first point. :thumbsup: I am not going to try and diminish Brands stats due to being on the Clippers...BUT history <font size="1">(2002-2003)</font> tells me that his scoring stat will go down once he plays with a more talented team. I know it was only one year but that stat is somewhat telling of what could happen.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">Because most of the time Wilcox is used to spell time for Brand. Sure they would play together at some point during the game but most of Wilcox' production would come with Brand being on the bench no? <font size="1">Correct me if I'm wrong I don't watch the Clips play much, I'm basing this on positions</font> </div> Nope, you're wrong...while there are times that Kaman and Wilcox are on the floor together, its not often....They are the Clipps center by committee...most of wilcox's numbers (as well as Kaman's) are with Brand on the floor...WIlcox is more of Kaman's backup than Brands backup... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It was purely hypothetical what I did and I was just making a case on how his stats would decline had he had a centre like Dampier to play with. You say the Clippers are below average at the centre so I added an above average centre to prove my point. </div> I never said they were below average at Center...if fact, I think they are slightly above average...Kaman and Wilcox are an awesome combo... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting CourtVision:</div><div class="quote_post">My arguement wasn't about the bad Clippers centres rather "What if" Brand played with Dampier. Would his stats be the same? I think they would see a slight reduction. You made it out to think that he would never see a decline in his production and I just pointed out a scenario where it could happen. <font size="1"><font color="red">Hypothetically speaking of course</font></font></div> I sincerly don't think they would really decline...A chunk of his rebounds are offensive boards...In addition, a chunk of his points are on plays not run for him... Regardless, you were using that argument against brand and for Jermaine O'neal...but O'neal doesn't have a center either...if u switched O'neal and Brand, I think brand would put up similar numbers as a Pacer...(again, not arguing who's better) <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Game you know as well as I do that the 48 minutes stat is BS. Let's just see when he plays heavy minutes rather than bringin up that stat. It's like you are pointing out that he's a better rebounder than Bosh due to that stat, which we both know is not the case.</div> I agree the 48 minute stat isn't a great measure...but just look at the raw stats then....Averaging about 6 boards in 22 minutes is not bad...U as well as I would take that anyday (especially from a rookie that came from a small school)... <font color="DarkSlateGrey">Regarding the JO vs Brand arguement, I'll tell u the difference between them...JO is gonna be the "main guy." That's just his role, and that's the role that maximizes his game... Brand is ideally a #2 option...that's where he maximizes his game. While he puts up #1 option numbers, it is mostly from his own hustle and grit...As a #2 option, I feel he would still put up 20 and 10...You can argue that he's the #2 option right now on the CLipps... I don't think one is better than the other...it comes down to team need...If you already have a team full of scorers, then Elton Brand would be the guy you want because he can fit right in anywhere...If you are a team that needs a #1 option, the JO is your ideal man...</font>
How come after all these "quoting" posts, no Brand Haters has answered my post? (with the exception of one guy quoting a small part of my post, thanks.) I can't believe people try to knock on Elton Brand just because he hasn't broken .500. That's just silly. Again, for at least the 3rd time in the same thread, how come nobody's doubting Tmac as one of the top SGs in the league even though he leads his team to a pretty pathetic 41, 44 wins seasons in Orlando (East) but Brand gets hammered for doing pretty much the same thing but out here in the better/harder Western conference? I can bet you anything you want that if the Clippers were switched with Orlando conference-wise, the same thing would happen. Brand and his team would go on to the playoffs every single year (except maybe this one, just like Tmac). But of course, Elton Brand is only the most underrated power forward ever. People just don't have respect these days.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">These guys don't man the paint and control the lane. Look at Kaman and tell me that as a centre he shouldn't be averaging more boards and blocks. I know he's not capable but that just proves my point.</div> He's not doing bad or something, look at the minutes he plays, thats about 9 rebounds and 1 and a half blocks in real minutes (let's say 37 minutes per game). <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">I will give you that one because I don't see him play enough to know that. I'm sure a block or two comes from helping out one of his defenders no?</div> He's not much of a weak side blocker, but of course once in a while he'll get a block from helping out obviously, but he's more like Theo in the sense that he gets a lot of one on one blocks, but Theo is the master of one on one and weakside blocks. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">Because you didn't bother to pay creedance to that fact at all rather just talking about 2002 not about the fact that Brand's scoring went down in 2003. Would you really consider Olowokandi a serious centre in 2002 anyways? He had potential but I don't remember him being above average.</div> Sorry I didn't really see much else I could have said about it, he got even more rebounds, but his scoring went down because he only got 12 shots a game, it's like not expecting someone who goes to Dallas or LA to have less scoring numbers. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">I wouldn't exactly call Ruffin a beast on the boards either (now thats exaggerating)</div> Oh common, don't tell me you don't understand what I meant, 5.8 rebounds in 19.5 minutes is 11.0 rebounds per 37 minutes, or 11.9 rebounds per 40 minutes. He's not a bad rebounder of something, mind his offensive game is the worst in the league but I was reffering to rebounds. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting "CourtVision":</div><div class="quote_post">Brand does not = .500 record in the NBA If he did I would not be mentioning it that much. We can talk about if he was on a good team and whatnot but the plain fact stands that he has not even broken .500 yet in his career.</div> If he had remained in the East, hopefully a healthy season next year, and the Clippers being healthy while also aqcuiring a good PG and this won't be said anymore. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Because most of the time Wilcox is used to spell time for Brand. Sure they would play together at some point during the game but most of Wilcox' production would come with Brand being on the bench no? Correct me if I'm wrong I don't watch the Clips play much, I'm basing this on positions</div> Wilcox subbed in for Kaman for most of the game, they both played about 20 minutes a game, and each averaged about 6 rebounds. Like he also said, look at JO, Foster isn't any big man at center, Duncan - Rasho, KG - Ervin Johnson and Kandi while he's not dying from knee pain, Randolph-Ratliif (great defense just an ok rebounder), Amare - Voushkl and Lampe, KMart - Jason Collins and Aaron Williams and it goes on. That was a bad criticizm that he doesn't have a good center, and also the whole Clippers lineup are good rebounders, the SG and SF both average 6 boards and game, and the PG 3. Even Dampier, he has Cliff Robinson (worst rebounding PF), look at Ben, his rebound numbers were so high when Cliff was there, Cliff gets the other power player about 2 more defensive rebounds a game, and Cliff leaves and Ben's defensive boards drop. ^^^^^ (from above post) He is right, Paul Pierce (losing record), Tmac, Marbury (losing record), Vince Carter, Ray Allen, and many other players lose on their respective teams but are still considered top players in their positions, everyone will say Tmac is still the best 2 guard but how can he be if he's losing, for Tmac its that his team is bad or injured, for Brand its that he's not doing something right. Was Andre Miller no considered a top PG after averaging 10 assists, even though he was on the Cavs? For the Rebounding, we can look at the starting lineup (excludng the PF) rebounds per game and minutes Elton Brand starting lineup 20.9 rebounds per game in 124.8 minutes per game Jermaine O'neal starting lineup 17.1 rebounds per game in 115.8 minutes per game. Kevin Garnett starting lineup 13.8 rebounds per game in 115.4 minutes per game. Tim Duncan starting lineup 18.5 rebounds per game in 121 minutes per game. Now because of the difference in minutes, per 125 minutes: Brand - 20.9 Duncan - 19.1 JO - 18.5 KG - 14.9 Now that's not measuring how good rebounders they are because their's also the fact of rebound chances that occur in the game, but that's just to show that he's not a good rebounder because his team can't rebound.
My top 5 PFs would be: 1. Kevin Garnett 2. Tim Duncan 3. Jermaine O'Neal 4. Lamar Odom 5. Elton Brand Odom is highly under-rated, and Martin is right in the next tier of players. Nowitzki played Center this year, and Ben Wallace has also been playing Center since the Wallace trade. Also, Kirelenko has been playing SF. All 3 of those guys would've been hard to keep off the list had they been playing their natural positions of PF.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">He's not doing bad or something, look at the minutes he plays, thats about 9 rebounds and 1 and a half blocks in real minutes (let's say 37 minutes per game).</div> You don't realize that adding up the stats as if he's playing a real game does not count for anything. He is not good enough to play 35 minutes per game and that is the facts. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Oh common, don't tell me you don't understand what I meant, 5.8 rebounds in 19.5 minutes is 11.0 rebounds per 37 minutes, or 11.9 rebounds per 40 minutes. He's not a bad rebounder of something, mind his offensive game is the worst in the league but I was reffering to rebounds.</div> It doesn't matter if you add up what he does in 35 minutes. Tony Dumas once was scoring 45 points in 48 minutes but does that make him a great scorer? He just was not good enough to play heavy minutes. Same goes for Ruffin. If you are going to tell me that Ruffin of all players is taking away boards <font size="1">(even though he only averaged 5 once in his career) </font>from Brand then I'm just not going to address this anymore. It's just not logical. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">If he had remained in the East, hopefully a healthy season next year, and the Clippers being healthy while also aqcuiring a good PG and this won't be said anymore.</div> There are a lot of ifs and's and buts...but the fact remains that he has not won over half of his games in his career. Can you agree to this? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">He is right, Paul Pierce (losing record), Tmac, Marbury (losing record), Vince Carter, Ray Allen, and many other players lose on their respective teams but are still considered top players in their positions, everyone will say Tmac is still the best 2 guard but how can he be if he's losing, for Tmac its that his team is bad or injured, for Brand its that he's not doing something right. Was Andre Miller no considered a top PG after averaging 10 assists, even though he was on the Cavs?</div> Who said Brand was not a top player?? He's in my top 4 PF's. Am I underrating him in any way?? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">For the Rebounding, we can look at the starting lineup (excludng the PF) rebounds per game and minutes Elton Brand starting lineup 20.9 rebounds per game in 124.8 minutes per game Jermaine O'neal starting lineup 17.1 rebounds per game in 115.8 minutes per game. Kevin Garnett starting lineup 13.8 rebounds per game in 115.4 minutes per game. Tim Duncan starting lineup 18.5 rebounds per game in 121 minutes per game. Now because of the difference in minutes, per 125 minutes: Brand - 20.9 Duncan - 19.1 JO - 18.5 KG - 14.9 Now that's not measuring how good rebounders they are because their's also the fact of rebound chances that occur in the game, but that's just to show that he's not a good rebounder because his team can't rebound.</div> Okay stats are supposed to support your arguement but this is stretching it. You can't look at those things and say one PF is better than another. However much you score or rebound in 48 minutes means jack in the NBA. Stats sometimes don't mean jack in the NBA. Winning does.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">It doesn't matter if you add up what he does in 35 minutes. Tony Dumas once was scoring 45 points in 48 minutes but does that make him a great scorer? He just was not good enough to play heavy minutes. Same goes for Ruffin. If you are going to tell me that Ruffin of all players is taking away boards (even though he only averaged 5 once in his career) from Brand then I'm just not going to address this anymore. It's just not logical.</div> <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay stats are supposed to support your arguement but this is stretching it. You can't look at those things and say one PF is better than another. However much you score or rebound in 48 minutes means jack in the NBA. Stats sometimes don't mean jack in the NBA. Winning does.</div> You're the on that threw these at me by saying Brand won't do as well with other star players or with a guy like Dampier, and if Ruffin is playng 19.5 minutes and getting 5.8 boards why shouldn't it affect Brand, Brand doesn't rest for 20 minutes a game. Also with Kaman I had no implication that he was capable of playing heavy minutes, just stating that he's getting 5.7 rebounds in those minutes he does get, and Wilcox also getting 6 so they aren't bad rebounders, and Kaman isn't a bad blocker, this isn't Milicic where we're looking at how he does in 5 minutes per game. Kaman isn't fat and unfit or something so he could play those minutes but its not the best choice for the team because he's not experienced enough and will make mistakes, it doesn't mean he won't rebound and block anymore, but he turns the ball over a lot and has defensive lapses etc. Dumas did that for what, three games? I don't get why it isn't logical but sure, isn't he (Ruffin) rebounding while he's in there? In Reply to this: <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Okay stats are supposed to support your arguement but this is stretching it. You can't look at those things and say one PF is better than another. However much you score or rebound in 48 minutes means jack in the NBA. Stats sometimes don't mean jack in the NBA. Winning does.</div> Read what I said...... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Now that's not measuring how good rebounders they are because their's also the fact of rebound chances that occur in the game, but that's just to show that he's not a good rebounder because his team can't rebound. </div> I'm saying it doesn't even measure how good rebounders they are so obviouly I'm not implying that it measures how good a player they are, it was just to prove a point which was that he doesn't get rebounds because his team is a bad rebounding team. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">There are a lot of ifs and's and buts...but the fact remains that he has not won over half of his games in his career. Can you agree to this? </div> Yea I can agree to that <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Who said Brand was not a top player?? He's in my top 4 PF's. Am I underrating him in any way?? </div> In respect to JO in a sense, you mention too much about him losing as if he drives those teams to losses, or doesn't have the desire, or isn't a winning player, when in fact their are more factors. The Clippers are injured every single year, including Brand actually at times, but when healthiness strikes it could be a different story.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SupraJames:</div><div class="quote_post">How come after all these "quoting" posts, no Brand Haters has answered my post? (with the exception of one guy quoting a small part of my post, thanks.) I can't believe people try to knock on Elton Brand just because he hasn't broken .500. That's just silly. Again, for at least the 3rd time in the same thread, how come nobody's doubting Tmac as one of the top SGs in the league even though he leads his team to a pretty pathetic 41, 44 wins seasons in Orlando (East) but Brand gets hammered for doing pretty much the same thing but out here in the better/harder Western conference? I can bet you anything you want that if the Clippers were switched with Orlando conference-wise, the same thing would happen. Brand and his team would go on to the playoffs every single year (except maybe this one, just like Tmac). But of course, Elton Brand is only the most underrated power forward ever. People just don't have respect these days.</div>I am saying this because people want to rate him over JO. He is still in my top 4 so I don't see how I am underrating him so to speak. You can make all the scenarios you want to create but the fact is: He hasn't broken .500 and led a team to the playoffs. If he does that then I may allow him in my top 3 but until then i won't consider it. How the hell am I underrating him??? <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Dumas did that for what, three games? I don't get why it isn't logical but sure, isn't he (Ruffin) rebounding while he's in there? </div> Actually Dumas did that for a whole season off the bench for Dallas <font size="1">(could be past your time)</font>. That is why I am saying that adding up those stats does not mean he will be able to average them if he plays those minutes. You bring that up and make it a valid statistic to look at. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">In Reply to this: Read what I said...... I'm saying it doesn't even measure how good rebounders they are so obviouly I'm not implying that it measures how good a player they are, it was just to prove a point which was that he doesn't get rebounds because his team is a bad rebounding team.</div> I never said he had a bad rebounding team. I said he is their only presence in the paint. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">In respect to JO in a sense, you mention too much about him losing as if he drives those teams to losses, or doesn't have the desire, or isn't a winning player, when in fact their are more factors. The Clippers are injured every single year, including Brand actually at times, but when healthiness strikes it could be a different story.</div> Like I said, "There are a lot of ifs ands and buts". Sorry to bring this example in but the Raptors are injured every year and Vince gets the heat for their losing. Is it deserved? Yes a part of that is because he is the star player and he is very responsible for wins and losses. I'm not saying that Brand is 100% responsible for them but he does have a hand in losing because he is their star player. It's funny how people think I'm underrating him based on his record alone. Well if I did that then I would not have made Kenyon Martin at my 5 just below Brand. I am not underrating Brand, please everyone get that through your heads. If Brand makes the playoffs and has a team that can compete in the West then I will gladly eat my words. But until then the only thing's that seperates him and JO are injuries and winning. Two very important things if you ask me.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Actually Dumas did that for a whole season off the bench for Dallas (could be past your time). That is why I am saying that adding up those stats does not mean he will be able to average them if he plays those minutes. You bring that up and make it a valid statistic to look at.</div> I thought he averaged 30 points per 48 minutes for a season, but when its a guy that just hoists up shots and can't do much else its not that big a deal. Also I said 37 minutes because its unealistic for anyone to play 48 minutes per game right now. I'm pretty sure if Kaman played 37 mnutes a game he's get 9 rebounds, it doesn't make sense for him to not be able to get 3 more rebounds in 15 more minutes. But I hear you in that it's not relevant at times but this isn't an irrelevant situation. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said he had a bad rebounding team. I said he is their only presence in the paint</div> Still isn't anything significant, so is JO, KG, not Duncan I guess he has Rasho, but its not something paticular to him. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Like I said, "There are a lot of ifs ands and buts". Sorry to bring this example in but the Raptors are injured every year and Vince gets the heat for their losing. Is it deserved? Yes a part of that is because he is the star player and he is very responsible for wins and losses. I'm not saying that Brand is 100% responsible for them but he does have a hand in losing because he is their star player. </div> It's true, but a lot of criticism also goes to Carter because even his individual production isn't as good as people know it can be and he's defense too, he wouldn't get as much hit if he put out so much effort on defense, offense etc, but it happens. Of course he (Brand) has a hand in losing true, but most of the problems aren't anything he can fix, well he could by complaining so he gets traded but apart from that he can't stop Maggette and Q-Rich from being injured etc... I mean really their's not much he can do, their's thsoe players that put up the numbers but don't play defense or don't put effort but he does all that so... I hear what you're saying though, when he wins we can give him more props.
1. Duncan 2. Garnett 3. J. O'Neal 4. Stoudemire 5. Randolph Not even close. Brand may be the better individual player than Stoudemire and Randolph, but he hasn't made a bigger positive impact on his team than those top 5 PF's of their respective teams.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Duncan 2. Garnett 3. J. O'Neal 4. Stoudemire 5. Randolph Not even close. Brand may be the better individual player than Stoudemire and Randolph, but he hasn't made a bigger positive impact on his team than those top 5 PF's of their respective teams.</div> THere is just no way Randolph should be put ahead of Brand...he wouldn't know what defense is if it hit him over the head...
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Elton Brand is not one of the top 5 pfs. KMart is because he was in this years' all star games.</div> This is just stupid, sorry but you think if Brand was a PF in the East he wouldn't have made the All-Star team? Common man that's just a bad, horrible way of looking at it. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Duncan 2. Garnett 3. J. O'Neal 4. Stoudemire 5. Randolph Not even close. Brand may be the better individual player than Stoudemire and Randolph, but he hasn't made a bigger positive impact on his team than those top 5 PF's of their respective teams.</div> Like he said, when Randolph can play defense, and I'm a Suns fan but we weren't winning too much this year now were we. If you even look at the roster on the Suns from last year, Starbury, Marion, Amare, JJ, Penny, Marbury who people call the 2nd best PG in the league, 2 of thsoe guys were All-Stars, and this year 3 of those 5 guys could be All-Stars, and one is a borderline All-Star (JJ) common people.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Henacy:</div><div class="quote_post">Plays with more heart then K-Mart, are you kidding me? Its hard to argue that any PF in the League plays with more heart & Passion then K-Mart. There are power forwards with more offensive skill then K-Mart but heart I dont think so.</div> uhh--uh---ppppppppfffffwwwhaHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAH wipes tear this is the funniest post ive seen since ive been back. Kmart has as much talent as anyone in the atlantic division, but any coach or scout could tell you he lacks in the heart and toughness department
Elton Brand, he's NUMBER ONE in my heart baby! :mrgreen: As for K-Mart, I don't know, I really feel him, I love his energy and athleticism. But I'm feelin INCREDIBLE K-MART HATE POST comin REAL soon... just watch... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">uhh--uh---ppppppppfffffwwwhaHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAH wipes tear this is the funniest post ive seen since ive been back. Kmart has as much talent as anyone in the atlantic division, but any coach or scout could tell you he lacks in the heart and toughness department</div> GODDAMN, he beat me to it... I shoulda typed faster... ANY posts by OLSKOOL, you BETTER expect to read some HARDCORE TRASHTALK about your dear KMart... haha, this never gets old!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chungster:</div><div class="quote_post">1. Duncan 2. Garnett 3. J. O'Neal 4. Stoudemire 5. Randolph Not even close. Brand may be the better individual player than Stoudemire and Randolph, but he hasn't made a bigger positive impact on his team than those top 5 PF's of their respective teams.</div> Sorry to say but when the thread has turned to this^. I know when to step aside.... <font size="1">But really Stoudamire and Randolph over Brand??? You gotta be joking me.</font>
