I don't get it, VC is not a so good player that some of you say, just because he can dunk, and has alot of fans because of that, he isn't a real good player, and to those who say Artest isn't better than Vince......<strike>forget about it, I don't like talkin to noobs!</strike> <font color="red">Personal attacks will not be tolerated. Be nice now.</font> <font color="red">-CourtVision</font>
Noobs? You joined the site in April 2004, CourtVision joined Dec 2003, and me Jan 2004 and we are the noobs? You have 70 posts, and I have 862, CourtVision 1479 and we are? How in the world did you get that assumption, and being new has nothing to do with your base of knowledge. Vince Carter is a Superstar, which means franchise player, carrying a team. Ron Artest is a very good player but not a superstar/franchise type player, but he is an All Star.
Actually Kareem has a point og15..... Artest brings his game every night. I remember a couple years ago VC had like 4 points on Christmas day...nationally televised. That's sad. Artest will never get the props he deserves because he is defensive minded. There isn't a stat for shutting someone down, but there is for scoring. Besides, if Artest didn't have JO he would be scoring just as much as Vince, easily.
I don't think the Pacers should do the trade I said it was stupid, but for a team to rely on Artest to carry a team its pretty hard, I feel he's an All-Star but he's not a franchise player because most franchise players have to be able to carry the offensive load of a team, and do the other things. I think Artest is probably the best secondary player to have just because of his defense and his improved offense <font size="1">(except for Kobe with Shaq)</font> but to say he's better than Vince because he's a better defender I don't know. Just think, Toronto with Artest instead of Vince this year, that means Artest getting double or triple teamed everytime he touches the ball, his post up and leaning layup won't work because he'll never be able to establish himself. Even worse imagine him at the beginning of the season with Antonio Davis, Bosh, Jerome Williams, Alvin Williams injured, Milt Palacio, Michael Curry, the Raptors would be averaging 70 points a game.
I think Artest has shown that he can shoulder the offensive load on a consistent basis. I do believe that he needs JO to be as effective as he is and he also does do a good job of passing out of double teams. Artest's offense is not that much behind VC's. They just play a different style. Artest plays inside and outside usually posting up smaller players at times and driving to the basket. VC has the better perimetre game but is always ragged on for not driving to the bucket more. Also I would consider Artest to be a tougher player than Vince is by far. I won't even have to explain this fact. Add in the fact that Artest is 3x the better defender than Vince and you have a top ten player on your hands <font size="1">(who just won the DPOY recently)</font> I am the type of person who values defense over offense so I guess I am a little bit biased but they don't make the saying "Defense wins championships" for nothing. I consider Artest to be a better player than Vince by a small margin.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">most franchise players have to be able to carry the offensive load of a team, and do the .</div> I can think of plenty of cases where that isn't true. You could argue that Big Ben is Detroit's franchise player (certainly the most popular) and the dude doesn't score. Dirk may score the most in ppg for the Mavs, but the leading scorer changes from night to night. Michael Redd may score the most for the Bucks, but I don't think he's a franchise player. I also don't consider Lamar Odom a franchise player, yet he leads the heat in scoring.
I said carry the load not be the leading scorer , Odom wasn't the leading scorer in Miami, Eddie Jones was with 17.3 points, Odom has 17.1 and Wade 16.2. The load was shared in Miami, no one had so carry the team alone, Wade and Odom are the franchise player. Ben Wallace isn't the Pistons franchise player neccesarilly, he's the anchor but they're a team like Memphis where their's no franchise player. The leading scorer can change from night no night on many teams, to go to guy doesn't have to always score the most points. Dallas is a team built around scoring, in the end Dirk still leads the scoring for the season. Actually Michael Redd is the Bucks franchise player. Kidd isn't the leading scorer on the team but he mainly carries the offensive load to initiate the offense and create for others.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">I said carry the load not be the leading scorer.</div> You said carry the OFFENSIVE load. Does that not mean score the most points?
If offense depended on only scoring then it would, that's why I used the example of Kidd, in most cases its to score the most points but the examples you brought are of teams where their are many scorers. The franchise player can't be scoring 11 points a game or something, but with a guy like Kidd, 16 points, about 6 rebounds, and 9-10 assists is franchise player material. Miami has 17.3 ppg, 17.1 ppg, and 16.4 ppg, no one is carrying anything there. Then you said Dirk who is the leading scorer anyways, their wasn't much of a point on that one. Then Michael Redd who is the Bucks franchise player, and the leading scorer.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Then you said Dirk who is the leading scorer anyways, their wasn't much of a point on that one. Then Michael Redd who is the Bucks franchise player, and the leading scorer.</div> My point about Dirk is that the Mavs are like how you claim the heat are, plenty of scorers. Dirk may be the franchise player, but isn't required to carry the offensive load. Do you know what a franshise player is? You can't just pick the best player or most popular player on a team and claim that they are the franchise player (that was my point with Big Ben). A Franchise player has to take up a significant amount of a team's salary, and I dont believe that Michael Redd makes enough to be considered that player yet.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllBoutDaPacers:</div><div class="quote_post">A Franchise player has to take up a significant amount of a team's salary, and I dont believe that Michael Redd makes enough to be considered that player yet.</div> I'd say Redd is the Bucks' franchise player. You do not have to make the big bucks to be considered a player your team depends on night in night out. A big contract shows the dedication that your team has in you and their eagerness to have you for the longest time possible. I bet if Redd's contract was about to expire, he'd be making at least 5-6 million a year.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllBoutDaPacers:</div><div class="quote_post">My point about Dirk is that the Mavs are like how you claim the heat are, plenty of scorers. Dirk may be the franchise player, but isn't required to carry the offensive load. Do you know what a franshise player is? You can't just pick the best player or most popular player on a team and claim that they are the franchise player (that was my point with Big Ben). A Franchise player has to take up a significant amount of a team's salary, and I dont believe that Michael Redd makes enough to be considered that player yet.</div> Lebron is the Cavs franchise player and because he's on his rookie contract is making peanuts, Carmelo is the Nuggets franchise player, most players when they get named franchise players don't make the dough till they expire their current contract, do you think after Redd's contract is done he's going to be making that garbage, I'm a Milwaukee fan so I'm not just pulling this out of the air or something. KVH makes the most money on the Bucks but he's definately not the franchise player. In New York its disputed if Marbury is a franchise player, but for right now he is, and Penny Hardaway makes more than him. Mutombo wasn't a franchise player on the Nets even though he was making the next most money after Kidd, franchise player's don't start out making 13 million dollars a year Antonio Davis was making more than Vince Carter but he definately wasn't out franchise player in Toronto, maybe its you that does not neccesarily understand the term "Franchise Player". If their was no Finley, do you think Dirk would be able to carry the offensive load, yes he would. Now ask yourself, do you think Artest is a franchise player, I mean carry a team by himself, be the focal point, like Pierce, Carter, Tmac etc. There are players that can carry the laod but are fortunate to be on teams where they don't have to (Dirk, Kobe), Odom and Wade can't carry the load alone yet so most of the time when you say Heat franchise player you mention them both. Pierce can be a franchise player, but most of the time he's been with Walker, doesn't make him any less of one.
Peja carries the offensive load for the Kings, and has actually done so even when Webber was there. If the Mavs didn't have finley, Dirk could carry the load, but he can have off nights because he has Nash, Walker, and even Jamison all contributing. That's really weak that you use people like Mutombo and KVH as examples of people making more than actual franchise players. Try and use a couple significant examples that aren't the result of a trade. There are many more examples, but frankly, this conversation has already gone farther than it should have.
I was just saying that the Franchise player doesn't have to make more, the amount you make isn't always the defining of wheter you're a franchise player because some players can be signed for little then explode and become just what the team needs, or they can be great rookies. I was just using them as examples to emphasize the point. Also you're overstating the carrying the load, it doesn't mean they have the score the most points every single game. Every single player in the league has off nights, even KG and Duncan, their have been many times where Parker, Cassell or Spree would lead the scoring for the team. Peja is a catch and shoot player, he scores the most but he doesn't initiate the offense and isn't able to create. If he was on a team without, Bibby, Brad Miller and Divac, was getting doubled, and was the guy that had to score and create for the team he wouldn't do good at all. It also shows in his playoffs performances, when guys take it to a new level because it's the playoffs, and prevent him from getting the catch and shoots, and play him tight, he doesn't produce. Anyways this is extrmely off topic but just clearing that up. Now I ask again, do you think Artest is a franchise player, a guy that can be the focal point of a team and carry them himself like Peirce, Tmac, Carter etc?
Actually, the player that takes the most of a team's cap space is by definition, the franchise player. Concerning Artest, do I think he could lead a team like Pierce or Carter? Certainly, especially since those guys only average 4-5 more ppg than him. Get rid of JO and give Artest some of his shots, Ron could easily raise his scoring average ABOVE those of Carter and Pierce (I'm am not suggesting that the Pacers try this, because JO is more valuable that just as an offensive leader). Also, I took into accoun fg %, even with an increased scoring load there would be room for a decrease in Ron's fg %, that would still leave it at the same level as Pierce or VC. You also asked about Tmac, and no, I dont think that he could average as much as Tmac or lead a team like him (but would you really want to lose your first 20 games? ). Seriously though, Tmac's scoring is on another level in comparision to that of the other leaders that you listed, and I DON'T believe that Artest could reach that level, even as a lone star.
I dunno I don't think Artest's offensive game/ability to create for the team can survive being the lone go to guy, Artest doesn't have the worlds best handles, and he's not the best player at creating. What do you think will happen when teams are doubling or tripling him, putting their best defender on him at all times throughout the game, just from watching Artest, he'd averaged like 5 turnovers a game and shoot like Iverson. Also I think his decrease in FG will be lower than theirs, these were off years for them basically and he only beat Carter by 0.4%, but Pierce by 1.9%. Scoring 4 more points every game is harder than it might seem, it's like when you think, if a guy just averaged 5 points a quarter he'll score 20, but when it comes down to it, its not that easy. Is Ron Artest Franchise Player Material
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting og15:</div><div class="quote_post">Noobs? You joined the site in April 2004, CourtVision joined Dec 2003, and me Jan 2004 and we are the noobs? You have 70 posts, and I have 862, CourtVision 1479 and we are? How in the world did you get that assumption, and being new has nothing to do with your base of knowledge. Vince Carter is a Superstar, which means franchise player, carrying a team. Ron Artest is a very good player but not a superstar/franchise type player, but he is an All Star.</div> HAhahahaha, yeeah im a noob if you look at my profile, but I have been a member of this site for a long time, I got kicked from this site about 3 times because of harsh language and dissin, and Kareem.02. is my fourth name. So actually you are wrong.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kareem.02:</div><div class="quote_post">HAhahahaha, yeeah im a noob if you look at my profile, but I have been a member of this site for a long time, I got kicked from this site about 3 times because of harsh language and dissin, and Kareem.02. is my fourth name. So actually you are wrong.</div> LOL. I think you just ensured that you will be kicked from this site a fourth time......learn to bite your tongue man.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllBoutDaPacers:</div><div class="quote_post">LOL. I think you just ensured that you will be kicked from this site a fourth time......learn to bite your tongue man.</div> I couldnt resist, but they are always nice, so I hope I can stay!
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting AllBoutDaPacers:</div><div class="quote_post">LOL. I think you just ensured that you will be kicked from this site a fourth time......learn to bite your tongue man.</div> Maybe I should have a nick like: Shut your mouth or something, butI couldnt resist, but they are always nice, so I hope I can stay!
