<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">well what u fail to mention is that sweden has one of the lowest homicide rates in the world, unlike the united states which mirrors third world levels. people are so frustrated down in the states. of course he can endorse bush, i was pointing out the contradictions like pointing out that your tough on crime and punishment yet u glorify kobe in your username. anyways punishment has been proven not to be a deterence.</div> If you are saying I glorify Bush, you are completely wrong..I hate all politics, I think they lie a lot just to get power, but I am also very ignorant in that topic..>I will be the first to admit. I think Bush has let this Iraq thing get out of hand, and he needs to get the tropps out of there. And we dont know that Kobe raped the chick, we know he had sex with her. Anyways lets get this back on topic.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">are u the resident moral gestapo in these forums? i guess u think you're with that stupid bush ad, lets keep political endorsements out of the forums, please! </div> <div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post"> btw, didn't your boy bush have a dui charge? that has to be the most reprehensible crime cause his act of selfishness endangered the lives of everyone and he's the president of the united states now. still can't believe how he bamboozled the election away from the rightful victor and he's got your endorsement. did I mention his lies, ?iraq poses an imminent threat?, ?wmd?s?, ?saddam-bin laden link? and don?t make me mention the economy stupid. u make strange bedfellows accord.</div> You want ppl to keep their political views out of the forum, then u post out your stuff.....Can u say hypocrite?
Deception I dont know what country you live in, but after 9-11 Iraq did pose an imminent threat. Hussein was a crazy man, he killed his own people because they didnt want to follow his rule. Bush acted right, and that is one thing I will defend on him...Al Gore would of been lost on this whole thing, Bush was amazing the way he handled 9-11 and the following months... and about his DUI...everyone makes mistakes...are you telling me you are perfect?
<font color="red">If this discussion continues to go off topic, I will be forced to close this thread. Refrain from any personal attacks. -thefranchise3</font>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting thefranchise3:</div><div class="quote_post"><font color="red">If this discussion continues to go off topic, I will be forced to close this thread. Refrain from any personal attacks. -thefranchise3</font></div> cause i called a fellow moderator out on his bull the thread is being closed. what u perceive as personal attacks is me pointing out the contradictions. plus, ethics and sports is one of the emerging issues of debate especially in pro basketball.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting hagrid:</div><div class="quote_post">Perhaps you should have spent more time in class then, because PSYCHOLOGY, not sociology, is the study of your "deeply rooted mental issues". However, if you're looking to figure out how societal ills might have played a role in the rape, then sociology would serve you well. </div> sociology isnt just one class...its a program, and in said program, crim psych was just one of a few classes i took that dealt with topics that would give me SOME kind of opinion on the subject thats isnt completely ignorant. before you make assumptions about me, make sure you know a little more about me next time eh? i also took juvenile delinquency and even a class called psychology of film...but hey, if your so convinced that sociology and psych are in such worlds of difference, you should talk to the person who organizes the curriculum at my school...i dont do that, i just take the classes offered. other then that, your post was spot on, and i couldnt have agreed more. very well said <div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">alright, just as i suspected sarcasm doesn't translate well in large forums.</div> sarcasm doesnt translate well in text period. regardless of the size of forum, as lame as it may sound...often thats what emoticons are for...to help convey your intent...otherwise, how am i supposed to know when someone is being sarcastic, joking, serious....etc. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> was i glamorizing his crime or the dude? No, i was just pointing the raptors glaring weakness to identify a solid big man. the raptors are the same organization that brought us alec radiovich (sp.), nate didn't disclose his knee injury HUFFMAN and unfortunately the list is longer than those two scrubs. i merely was pointing out the desperation of the organization when the toronto star feels it newsworthy to report a story that the raptors are searching for a big who happened to do jail time in the Balkans.</div> [/quote] agreed fully...raps obviously have a poor history of over-seas drafting...clearly i wasnt supposed to just assume you meant all that from reading your post...you elaborated quite a bit from your original post. obviously hindsight is 20/20, but what can i say...if you had just put that in the beginning, it would have saved me some off-key assumptions <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> btw, the distinction between psychology and sociology is huge; sociology examines society specifically relationships at the macro, meso and micro level whereas psychology is preoccupied with the individual. criminality is much more of a focus within the psychology discipline than the sociology which strays away from casting moral assertions. i thought i felt compelled to drop u some knowledge cause u started preaching to me. btw, i'm a sociology major. and buddy u ain't the online moral gestapo, don't tell me whats right and wrong.</div> wasnt aware i had told you the difference between right and wrong...and personally, iv always thought that "right and wrong" is one of the more subjective things society deals with. obviously even someone with some of the lowest moral standard can tell that gang rape is one of the more disgusting crimes...i wasnt trying to patronize you by saying that...just adding to my point. if i misunderstood what you said in the beginning, its my bad...i think we are all guilty of misinterpreting text once in a while though <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Baller_Deluxe:</div><div class="quote_post">dj_premium_plus = twice!</div> yea...and dont i feel completely owned as well now...do you actually have an intelligent opinion to offer on the subject, is the extent of your witt limited to two word posts and emoticons?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Kobe 8 Ball:</div><div class="quote_post">Deception I dont know what country you live in, but after 9-11 Iraq did pose an imminent threat. Hussein was a crazy man, he killed his own people because they didnt want to follow his rule. Bush acted right, and that is one thing I will defend on him...Al Gore would of been lost on this whole thing, Bush was amazing the way he handled 9-11 and the following months...</div> another american completely brainwashed by his media. are you even aware that hussein, the illegal occupation your nation has the balls to call a "war" and 9-11 are suposed to be completely different issues? the 9-11 attacks were the work of osama bin-laden and his extremist terrorist group. the war on iraq (which is an illegal war btw) was supposed to be because saddam was hiding weapons of mass distruction (which convieniently have never turned up). the way bush handled 9-11 is a COMPLETE JOKE...you should actually read up on the subject, and not let the propaganda dished out by your media dictate your ignorance. i would NEVER defend any action by that miserable retard you call the president. before your so quick to judge the people of a nation you know very little about, outside of what your media tells you...you should ask yourself...how would you feel if someone from another country told you that the way you live is wrong, and came in, killed your family, and made you move away while they bombed the city you live in. how would you feel, if bush was forced out of the country and someone else came in and said "guess what...your doing things our way now". ps-mods...double posting here so my last post isnt a page long lol back on topic <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Accord:</div><div class="quote_post">You guys don't see the point, it's not like he was caught shoplifting or stealing a car stereo, the guy is a convicted sex offender that was part of a GANG RAPE. If this happened in America, he would be in prison right now and for a long time to come. All the charitable work, read to achieve, the team working with children, etc. and everything the Raptors have done in the community will go right out the window is they sign this scumbag. The Raptors have everything to lose and very little to gain by signing this idiot. There will be public outcry and the NBA has been working hard to seperate itself from the womanizing badboy stereotypes that go along with most of it's players, so i'm sure the NBA will have something to say about this.</div> very well said...not only would he still be in jail, but if he got out, he'd hardly be a candidate for an nba team. the league wouldnt even let him in cuz it would be "bad press". just more hypocricy dished out by the nation that leads the world in it.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">another american completely brainwashed by his media. are you even aware that hussein, the illegal occupation your nation has the balls to call a "war" and 9-11 are suposed to be completely different issues? the 9-11 attacks were the work of osama bin-laden and his extremist terrorist group. the war on iraq (which is an illegal war btw) was supposed to be because saddam was hiding weapons of mass distruction (which convieniently have never turned up). </div> First of all, I dont know what kind of news you are watching, but the media actually focuses on the negatives more so then the positives of the war. Many soldiers come back and are disguisted by what they see on the news...always taking about the killings, never talking about the rebuilding. Bush & Powell were probably wrong about the WMDs, but u know what, it doesn't matter because it was a result of Saddam's bluff. If you actually read instead of buying into the anti-american propaganda, you would know that Saddam wanted everyone to believe he had WMDs. It was his way of saving face after being forced to destroy the WMDs years ago. He wanted us to believe he had WMDs, and so we did. Who's fault is that? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> before your so quick to judge the people of a nation you know very little about, outside of what your media tells you...you should ask yourself...how would you feel if someone from another country told you that the way you live is wrong, and came in, killed your family, and made you move away while they bombed the city you live in. how would you feel, if bush was forced out of the country and someone else came in and said "guess what...your doing things our way now". </div> Before I respond to this uneducated portion of your post, let me ask you something...how do you know how the Iraqi's feel? Is it that small sample on television the media tends to focus on? How would you feel if you had no freedom of speech, where ppl in power would come to your house, kill your family, rape your wife...how would u feel if they tortured you for losing a sporting event...Are you aware of the genocide that had been going on under Saddam's power? Tens of thousands of ppl were killed were no reason at all.... The united states are aiding the Iraqi's in forming their own democratic government. Once it is set up, THEY elect their officials, THEY decide their laws...NOT THE U.S., NOT SOME EVIL DICTATOR... And to answer your questions, yes, my family lived in Saigon when it fell, and u know what? We are DAMN PROUD that the U.S. came in and tried to aid us.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">First of all, I dont know what kind of news you are watching, but the media actually focuses on the negatives more so then the positives of the war. Many soldiers come back and are disguisted by what they see on the news...always taking about the killings, never talking about the rebuilding. </div> probably because there is no rebuilding. this "war" (and i use the term VERY loosely) should never have even taken place. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Bush & Powell were probably wrong about the WMDs, but u know what, it doesn't matter because it was a result of Saddam's bluff. If you actually read instead of buying into the anti-american propaganda, you would know that Saddam wanted everyone to believe he had WMDs. It was his way of saving face after being forced to destroy the WMDs years ago. He wanted us to believe he had WMDs, and so we did. Who's fault is that? </div> bush & powell's fault. no one else in the U.N. thought he had the nukes...everyone wanted to see more evidence before going in...but saddams' brilliant trickery obviously FORCED the states to run in there blazin all guns. funny how the states is the only country that got "fooled" by saddam's trick. ps. i do read <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Before I respond to this uneducated portion of your post, let me ask you something...how do you know how the Iraqi's feel? Is it that small sample on television the media tends to focus on? How would you feel if you had no freedom of speech, where ppl in power would come to your house, kill your family, rape your wife...how would u feel if they tortured you for losing a sporting event...Are you aware of the genocide that had been going on under Saddam's power? Tens of thousands of ppl were killed were no reason at all....</div> my uncle who is a canadian peace keeper and was in iraq recently, and is in town briefly before shipping back out on the 21st. we talked lots. he has a pretty good idea of how many iraqis feel...i dont watch very much media...so you can stop assuming thats where im getting my opinions from. im hardly someone who just watches the news and forms my opinions based on the biased drivel spewed from that "source". i never once defended saddam...but are you aware of how many horrid attrocities take place around the world, that the states convieniently takes a blind eye to? it happens all over the world...how convienient that the states goes after a tiny weak nation that daddy had beef with as well. ps. is it even possible to tally up the number of innocent iraqi people killed in this war by us weaponry? what makes that ok, but saddam a "tyrant" ?? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The united states are aiding the Iraqi's in forming their own democratic government. Once it is set up, THEY elect their officials, THEY decide their laws...NOT THE U.S., NOT SOME EVIL DICTATOR...</div> [/quote] i bloody well hope so...after they killed thousands and reduced cities to rubble....for what reason? i thought it was to take WMD's from saddam...oh, of course NOOOW its to install democracy...interesting that the states hasnt tried that with cuba, or china...etc <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> And to answer your questions, yes, my family lived in Saigon when it fell, and u know what? We are DAMN PROUD that the U.S. came in and try to aid us.</div> at least the U.N. was in favour....at least it wasnt some bull**** illegal war.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post">probably because there is no rebuilding. </div> If that's what u think, then u need to get with the program. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">bush & powell's fault. no one else in the U.N. thought he had the nukes...everyone wanted to see more evidence before going in...but saddams' brilliant trickery obviously FORCED the states to run in there blazin all guns. funny how the states is the only country that got "fooled" by saddam's trick. </div> I don't think everyone knew he didn't have WMDs. Don't mistake inaction for belief. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">my uncle who is a canadian peace keeper and was in iraq recently, and is in town briefly before shipping back out on the 21st. we talked lots. he has a pretty good idea of how many iraqis feel...</div> and I'm sure most Iraqis will tell u they are happy Saddam is gone...They are just paranoid about the U.S. occupation and they want us to get out ASAP... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">but are you aware of how many horrid attrocities take place around the world, that the states convieniently takes a blind eye to? it happens all over the world...how convienient that the states goes after a tiny weak nation that daddy had beef with as well.</div> One attrocity does not justify another. And don't forget about Afganistan (sp?) and Kosavo...one at a time... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">ps. is it even possible to tally up the number of innocent iraqi people killed in this war by us weaponry? what makes that ok, but saddam a "tyrant" ??</div> The innocent killed is far less than Saddam's murders. The Coalition has made an effort to limit civilian casualties, and it is my opinion that they have done a great job. But unfortunately, everything comes at a price <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i bloody well hope so...after they killed thousands and reduced cities to rubble....for what reason? i thought it was to take WMD's from saddam...oh, of course NOOOW its to install democracy...interesting that the states hasnt tried that with cuba, or china...etc</div> The war was deemed from the begining as "Operation Iraqi Freedom." What do u think that means? It has always been about liberating the Iraqis, the WMDs just gave a reason... <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> at least the U.N. was in favour....at least it wasnt some bull**** illegal war.</div> Lets be honest here. The U.N. is a joke. They get pushed around way to often for anyone to take them too seriously...
*edit* just like to say...love the quote in your sig! bruce lee is a personal hero and idol. in case you havnt...be sure to read 'striking thoughts'. my fav book of bruce's the man was brilliant. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">If that's what u think, then u need to get with the program. </div> i dont actually think that..notice i said "probably". just making a point <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> I don't think everyone knew he didn't have WMDs. Don't mistake inaction for belief.</div> your right...not everyone knew they didnt have WMDs...they wanted more evidence that perhaps something WAS there before going in. and slaughtering thousands of people. there might have been a better solution then simply declaring "war" on a country that had absolutely NO chance...for what turns out to be a bunk reason. guess we'll never know now since the us in all its glory just does what it wants <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> One attrocity does not justify another. And don't forget about Afganistan (sp?) and Kosavo...one at a time...</div> not saying it does...im saying that the US conviniently acts on some, but not others...if the US is so into liberating countries from their iron fist, why dont they try that with china? or any of the other nations? there are still plenty for them to go after. who are the states to go in and impose their way? typical american arrogance. im not saying that saddam is good and the us is bad...im saying, you cant go around telling people by force "do it our way! your way is wrong!". there are plenty of corrupt governments that need weeding out...is the us going to go after all of them? how many people have to die to make the rest of the world more like the states? pakistan stones women to death who bear bastard children...the government SUPPORTS this kind of action...why has nothing ever been done about that? there are litterally thousands of such worldly problems...but for some reason, iraq was a top priority. dont know if you have all the answers, but personally...makes me think. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The innocent killed is far less than Saddam's murders. The Coalition has made an effort to limit civilian casualties, and it is my opinion that they have done a great job. But unfortunately, everything comes at a price</div> [/quote] unfortunately is right. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> The war was deemed from the begining as "Operation Iraqi Freedom." What do u think that means? It has always been about liberating the Iraqis, the WMDs just gave a reason...</div> yea...and "desert storm" was called just that, but it was really about the oil. whats this one really about? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> Lets be honest here. The U.N. is a joke. They get pushed around way to often for anyone to take them too seriously...</div> lol!!! yea...mostly the states are the ones pushing them around. thats what its like when you have about 2600 more nukes then any other nation. but what do you expect from a country that devotes 300 times more funding to "defense" then it does education.
hey "notmuchgame" did u go to the national enquirer school of international relations? Cause you?re regurgitating rumours. i wasn't comparing the human rights record of saddam and bush just their intelligence. but since u brought it up maybe i should mention that the gases thatwere used to kill the kurds were purchased from the americans when bush sr. was director of the cia. i here your rebuttal already but... they were going to gas the islamists in iran not the kurds. too bad crap happens especially when your are dealing with despots. the US should know they have had an affinity to make strange bedfellows with the most repressive genocidal autocrats. the list is lengthy, i'll name the ones that have achieved extraordinary recognition; suharto in Indonesia, pinochet in chile and the shah of iran. dude u ever seen the picture of rumsfeld and saddam shaking hands? interestingly, thomas friedman the ny times neo-con apologist and spokesperson said after the first persian gulf war that the US didn't intervene after the shite (sp.) uprising against saddam cause it was advantageous to have a "military junta" run iraq like saddam. so essentially even after relations brokedown with iraq; after saddam got more avaricious with the oil thing, u know nationalize the industry so iraqi's could actually benefit over their natural resource the americans still desired saddam to run things in babylon. so why did the war happen? well we know the wmd's are bull and we knew that before because iraq's neighbours kuwait and saudi arabia both US allies tried to reintegrate relations with iraq cause they knew saddam presented no threat imminently or long term. scott ritter the chief weapons inspector dude, an american republican dude i should mention said that 80% of iraq?s military toys whether they be conventional or unconventional had been destroyed. that was the greatest ever disarmament ever in history, the losers of ww2 weren't even stripped down like that. the disarmament was one of the conditions on which the first gulf war was ended. People often compare iraq?s capabilities or possible capabilites with north korea. Although, the north korean story is idiosyncratically different and often untold by the morons that run these cable news channels. for a long time the US and the world have imposed stringent embargo's like blocking petroleum on the north koreans for meddling into south korea, an US ally as witnessed by the 37,000 us soldiers over there. well north korea's great reprisal or should i say act of necessity looking for alternative energy sources was to build nuclear reactors which unfortunately culminated in the "bomb". funny thing about the entire north korean nuclear program is that everybody knew about it. clinton talked about extensively as far back as 93 and i believe time magazine made mention of them in the nineties as well. diametrically opposed, to the very public nuclear program of the north koreans is the very secretive isreali nuclear program which incidentally is the only country in the middle east with the "bomb". there is such a double standard here, i hope u notice it
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting dj_premium_plus:</div><div class="quote_post"> agreed fully...raps obviously have a poor history of over-seas drafting...clearly i wasnt supposed to just assume you meant all that from reading your post...you elaborated quite a bit from your original post. obviously hindsight is 20/20, but what can i say...if you had just put that in the beginning, it would have saved me some off-key assumptions </div> hey dj premium plus i apologize for our acrimonious past on this thread cause we clearly see the same thing, plus we are from soviet canuckistan. and defending bush is like defending a compulsive liar only problem he's the commander and chief of the US military.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting deception:</div><div class="quote_post">hey "notmuchgame" did u go to the national enquirer school of international relations? Cause you?re regurgitating rumours. </div> Tell me what "rumors" I was regurgitating. Everything was fact. It is already apparent that dj_premium_plus and I are on the same page about what actually happened. We just have a differing opinions on the manner in which it should have been handled.. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i wasn't comparing the human rights record of saddam and bush just their intelligence. but since u brought it up </div> When did I say you were comparing saddam and bush??? The only thing I ever said to you was that you're a hypocrite for presenting your political views while saying to others that they shouldn't do the same in this forum. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">maybe i should mention that the gases thatwere used to kill the kurds were purchased from the americans when bush sr. was director of the cia. </div> So now you're comparing Bush's human rights record with Saddam's...am I correct? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">i here your rebuttal already but... they were going to gas the islamists in iran not the kurds. too bad crap happens especially when your are dealing with despots. the US should know they have had an affinity to make strange bedfellows with the most repressive genocidal autocrats. the list is lengthy, i'll name the ones that have achieved extraordinary recognition; suharto in Indonesia, pinochet in chile and the shah of iran. dude u ever seen the picture of rumsfeld and saddam shaking hands? </div> And this justifies what? that since we sold them weapons 30 years ago, we don't have the right to do anything if they abuse it? <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">interestingly, thomas friedman the ny times neo-con apologist and spokesperson said after the first persian gulf war that the US didn't intervene after the shite (sp.) uprising against saddam cause it was advantageous to have a "military junta" run iraq like saddam. so essentially even after relations brokedown with iraq; after saddam got more avaricious with the oil thing, u know nationalize the industry so iraqi's could actually benefit over their natural resource the americans still desired saddam to run things in babylon.</div> I agree that was a mistake by the first administration. That is more reason now to finish the job before we leave the country. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">so why did the war happen? well we know the wmd's are bull scott ritter the chief weapons inspector dude, an american republican dude i should mention said that 80% of iraq?s military toys whether they be conventional or unconventional had been destroyed. that was the greatest ever disarmament ever in history, the losers of ww2 weren't even stripped down like that. the disarmament was one of the conditions on which the first gulf war was ended. </div> Everything is easy in hindsight, isn't it. The fact is that Saddam has been intentionally playing games with everyone all these years. If everyone was so sure he didn't have WMDs, then we wouldn't have to check every so often. Just because disarmament was one of the conditions of the first war, it doesn't mean Saddam completely complied. He wanted everyone to believe he had WMDs. He wanted everyone to think we didn't totaly strip him. He wanted everyone to believe he was an immenent threat. Otherwise, he wouldn't have took the inspectors to wrong places, he wouldn't have delayed their search. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">People often compare iraq?s capabilities or possible capabilites with north korea. Although, the north korean story is idiosyncratically different and often untold by the morons that run these cable news channels.north korea's great reprisal or should i say act of necessity looking for alternative energy sources was to build nuclear reactors which unfortunately culminated in the "bomb". </div> I agree that it's not even close. The North Korean situation is far different. But make no mistake, the North Koreans dont HAVE TO do anything. They are a victim of their own isolationism. The whole "nuclear threat" is an indirect blackmail for additional funds IMO. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> clinton talked about extensively as far back as 93 and i believe time magazine made mention of them in the nineties as well. diametrically opposed, to the very public nuclear program of the north koreans is the very secretive isreali nuclear program which incidentally is the only country in the middle east with the "bomb". there is such a double standard here, i hope u notice it</div> I believe Pakistan also has nuclear capabilities, and Syria could be on their way. Regardless, the Koreans are in the peliminary stages of their nuclear program while the Israeli's are far deeper in. They are different circumstances that have to be dealt with accordingly. but I agree with you in a sense that they all should be dealt with...
<font color="red">Thread Closed by thefranchise3, I warned everyone about going off topic, the last 9 posts were of that nature. This is a discussion about a basketball player, not pollitics (at least to that extent).</font>
