Is it jordans fault he got media hype and that they barely started keeping track of and naming new records in the 70's?
Its not MJ's fault they didn't start recording some statistics till the 70s....All-Defensive team, Playoff MVP, Steals and Blocks, Triple Doubles and Defensive Player of the Year. Players got better, the competition got much better. Jordan would have won the scoring title if he never retired. Jordan had a great chance to win 8 champioships in a rwo if he never retired. There is certainly a good argument to be made that Jordan was not the best player of all time.
Know what, call it being young or call it having no respect, but I put a lot of weight on the modern NBA than before.. Back then those players didn't get paid much, even relative to the rest of society. That means that although some people pursued it as a career and therefore some of the best ball players in the world were in the NBA, it didn't have the DRAW to attract people. You have Wilt who dominated the league, but he was really ahead of his time. Back then it was like.. if you noticed you were good at ball, then you'd consider a pro career. Today kids grow up playing ball hoping to one day "make it." That gives us a much bigger talent pool and consequently it's no stretch to that the competition today is much better than it was before. It's almost like.. I don;t know, what Golf is going through today. Because of Tiger Woods, so many more people are getting into the game and all of a sudden we have people like Michelle Wie (who is 14 years old and drives farther than most pro men).. Though it's a little early to draw conclusions, it would seem that in 20 or 30 years the competition will increase dramatically. By the time MJ made it practically everyone in the NBA was a superstar in college. He dominated them anyway. He dominated them not through his size, but rather from skill, dedication, and leadership. How many players of his stature (literally size) are being mentioned in his vein? Oscar? And he is considered among the best as well. Statistics back then are NOT COMPARABLE to statistics today. The competition and conditioning back then just did not exist. Hell, today there is very little that separates a superstar from a star from an "average" starter--at least in terms of physical conditioning. Jordan may not have been the best player relative to his own time, but I have no problem saying he is the best of all time.
Training in Jordans day was ten times better than Wilt's day. Everyone was basically on the same level when it came to training. Back then, guys really didn't lift much, and Wilt was just a monster. He was bigger than everyone. What MJ did was simply amazing.
That article is complete garbage. First off,comparing college championships is a moot point. Took Jordan 3 seasons? The Tar Heels won the title his freshman season. And comparing Jordan and the Bulls with Russell and Celts? Ridiculous. Jordan joined a terrible team with a bunch of bench-warmers forced into being starters and one B-level star(Orlando Woolridge). Russell joined a team made up of people the caliber of Bob Cousy,Tom Heinsohn and Bill Sharman(3 hall of famers i might add) so that is not a point that can be effectively argued. Furthermore this article is ludicrous claiming that anyone said Jordan could win a title by himself,Jordan himself said it was impossible and for anyone to say otherwise they have no sense of NBA history nor do they have a very high NBA IQ. I'm not going to breakdown Jordan's Bulls team to Russell's Celtics team because there is no need to. Russell's Celtics were otherworldly compared to the disaster of a team Jordan had. How anyone can make a comparison between the two in order to bash Jordan is asinine and weak at best. Now onto Kareem. Kareem won one title without Magic? True. But what this article (and I use the term loosely) fails to mention is Oscar Robertson was on that Bucks team,so it's not like Kareem won it by himself. The fact is Jordan took the Bulls further by himself than anyone had before,he never won the title but he made playoff runs at some great teams in those days. Why are they comparing Jordan to all centers? Thats what I dont understand. He can't compare to Chamberlain. Wilt was the most dominant player EVER. He did alot of his damage against opponents that were at times 8-9 inches shorter. No one can top what Wilt has done..but to be so dominant Wilt only won 2 titles. Now compare to Mike,he played in a highly competitve era for SG's,dominated them and won 6 NBA championships. It's funny how this 'writer' leaves that little fact out. Slams Jordan for not winning more then turns around and slams him for not being as dominant as Wilt,yet doesn't mention Wilt's many NBA Championship disappointments. I'm not even going to put any energy to the rest of this 'pos' of an article. These people should be ashamed. If you gonna slam MJ then at least do it a little better than this.
Great post 'Dre. You made some great points. It is hard enough to compare players from different eras, but to compare to completely different players with completely different games from different eras is terrible. You cannot do it. Wilt was playing against players that weren't in his world. He really had no competition. Jordan had tons of competition, and always came out on top. Jordan took that Bulls team, witch wasn't a great team, and won 6 championships. They really had no great big man that dominated. I completely agree wit Dre. How can you slam Jordan for one thing, but then completely "forget" to mention Wilt's 2 rings? It doesn't make any sense at all. MJ = Greatest of all Time. Period.
I always say this when defending Jordan. MJ dominated all those pesky wingmen by jumping and dunking over them. Then the quick and little guards came. What did he do? He showed a little bit of speed plus court savvy that they couldn't match. Then came the big bad Centers. He realized that dunking over them each and every play won't cut it so he developed a sweet fadeaway J to add to his dunking over the big bad Centers. Simply put, MJ played in an era of lightning quick Guards, high- flying wingmen and big scary monsters that we call Centers. As we all know, he succeeded.
wilt actually did have competition. his competition was bill russell, and just about every time they matched up, russell won. wilt was able to dominate people who didn't oppose a threat to him, but to the one/ones who did, he couldn't do anything about it. jordan on the other hand had to go against some of the greatest of all time. he dominated ewing and his knicks despite all the tactics they used to try and stop him. dominated the bad boys, possibly the greatest defensive team ever. dominated the jazz who have 2 of the best to ever play their position (stockton and malone). people don't recognize ewing as one of the greatest centers ever because he didn't win a title, but ewing was a HELL of a player who unfortunately had to play in the jordan era. and had jordan not retired in 93, i highly doubt olajuwon would have a ring. and had it not been for jordan, barkley, another one of the greatest overlooked PFs ever, would have a ring.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">wilt actually did have competition. his competition was bill russell, and just about every time they matched up, russell won. wilt was able to dominate people who didn't oppose a threat to him, but to the one/ones who did, he couldn't do anything about it. </div> This is a completely wrong statement. Bill and Wilt played alot and it's true Bill Russell won 90% of those contests but make no mistake about it,one on one and player to player Wilt did what he wanted against Bill Russell on both ends of the floor. Wilt Chamberlain dominated Bill Russell and did pretty much anything he wanted it's not a knock against Bill Russell but a testament to how dominate Wilt was. Bill's teams won,not because he dominated Wilt,because they were the better and deeper team 90% of the time. Wilt was the biggest and most talented player of his era by far and he had his way with 99.9% of the people matched up against him.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">This is a completely wrong statement. Bill and Wilt played alot and it's true Bill Russell won 90% of those contests but make no mistake about it,one on one and player to player Wilt did what he wanted against Bill Russell on both ends of the floor. Wilt Chamberlain dominated Bill Russell and did pretty much anything he wanted it's not a knock against Bill Russell but a testament to how dominate Wilt was. Bill's teams won,not because he dominated Wilt,because they were the better and deeper team 90% of the time. Wilt was the biggest and most talented player of his era by far and he had his way with 99.9% of the people matched up against him.</div> actually, the statement is true. i never said bill russell dominated wilt. i just said when the two went heads-up, bill came out on top, and there was nothing wilt was able to do. wilt still put up phenomenal numbers against bill, but when the game was on the line, it was bill who did everything it took to make sure his team came out on top. he had more of the "killer-instinct" as they say than wilt did.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">actually, the statement is true. i never said bill russell dominated wilt. i just said when the two went heads-up, bill came out on top, and there was nothing wilt was able to do. wilt still put up phenomenal numbers against bill, but when the game was on the line, it was bill who did everything it took to make sure his team came out on top. he had more of the "killer-instinct" as they say than wilt did.</div> Well lets put it like this,Wilt dominated Bill on both ends. Wilt usually locked him down on defense and had his way with him on offense a majority of the time so please tell me how Bill always stepped up to win the game? The Celtics usually won the games because of the play of the other 4 positions on the floor,thats not to say Bill didn't have a hand in it but against Wilt he wasn't able to do alot of the things defensively and offensively he did against other centers in the League. BTW: This is the quote that I have trouble with because it's not true at all. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">wilt was able to dominate people who didn't oppose a threat to him, but to the one/ones who did, he couldn't do anything about it.</div> it's not true because Wilt dominated EVERY center he ever faced 99% of the time they played...and yes that includes Bill.
I can't stop laughing. How is Walt Frazier and Oscar Robertson better than Jordan? The only players that can be said in the same breath as him are Wilt and Bill.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">Well lets put it like this,Wilt dominated Bill on both ends. Wilt usually locked him down on defense and had his way with him on offense a majority of the time so please tell me how Bill always stepped up to win the game? The Celtics usually won the games because of the play of the other 4 positions on the floor,thats not to say Bill didn't have a hand in it but against Wilt he wasn't able to do alot of the things defensively and offensively he did against other centers in the League. BTW: This is the quote that I have trouble with because it's not true at all. it's not true because Wilt dominated EVERY center he ever faced 99% of the time they played...and yes that includes Bill.</div> wilt did not dominate bill like he did the other centers, he still put up spectacular numbers against him... but he did not DOMINATE bill. bill was still able to play his usual defense against wilt, although he didnt block it as much as he would against other players, but he didn't allow wilt to dominate him. bill gave wilt fits, and wilt admitted to it that he was the toughest player he ever played against. and bill was never a great offensive player, so its given wilt was able to handle him on that end of the floor.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">wilt did not dominate bill like he did the other centers, he still put up spectacular numbers against him... but he did not DOMINATE bill. bill was still able to play his usual defense against wilt, although he didnt block it as much as he would against other players, but he didn't allow wilt to dominate him. bill gave wilt fits, and wilt admitted to it that he was the toughest player he ever played against. and bill was never a great offensive player, so its given wilt was able to handle him on that end of the floor.</div> Bill didn't have a choice. If you watch the games,Wilt had his way with Bill a majority of the time. Wilt didn't totally 100% dominate Bill because of the level of player Bill was,but make no mistake when they played you knew which one was in control. If the games they played against one another were decided by their play against one another then Wilt's teams would have won almost everyone of the contests.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">Bill didn't have a choice. If you watch the games,Wilt had his way with Bill a majority of the time. Wilt didn't totally 100% dominate Bill because of the level of player Bill was,but make no mistake when they played you knew which one was in control. If the games they played against one another were decided by their play against one another then Wilt's teams would have won almost everyone of the contests.</div> the presence of bill didnt allow wilt to go off like he would versus other teams who didnt have defenders like bill. i know wilt still put up spectacular numbers, numbers that were better than bill's, but bill still held wilt's play to a level where his teammates had a chance to keep them in the game. without bill in the middle to guard wilt, he would be able to score at will during late game situations, but wasnt able to do it at easily, and bills defense was the reason why. im not saying bill held him in complete check, but bill russell was the biggest factor in why the celtics won, not because of his teammates. his teammates played a huge role though, and without his teammates, he would not have won all those rings, but when it all came down to it, bill was the main reason for the celtics success because he was able to control, and i use that word loosely, wilt.
I dont agree with this either. If Jordan isn't the greatest player of all time why doesn't the writer say who is? Why does he have to compare MJ with other players. He doesn't once find one name and compare Jordan to that one person. He compares him Centers who were dominating in there time but who were also no 6'6. Jordan took control and dominated and won titles and set records and also give but 5 to 6 inches to these men.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">the presence of bill didnt allow wilt to go off like he would versus other teams who didnt have defenders like bill. i know wilt still put up spectacular numbers, numbers that were better than bill's, but bill still held wilt's play to a level where his teammates had a chance to keep them in the game. without bill in the middle to guard wilt, he would be able to score at will during late game situations, but wasnt able to do it at easily, and bills defense was the reason why. im not saying bill held him in complete check, but bill russell was the biggest factor in why the celtics won, not because of his teammates. his teammates played a huge role though, and without his teammates, he would not have won all those rings, but when it all came down to it, bill was the main reason for the celtics success because he was able to control, and i use that word loosely, wilt.</div> man this is where you are wrong. When the Celtics and Lakers or 76ers hooked up while Wilt was on the team,the team's success's came from the other 4 postions for the Celts. Wilt usually kept Bill pretty much in check on both ends so it fell upon Bill's teammates to do the deed.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Dre:</div><div class="quote_post">man this is where you are wrong. When the Celtics and Lakers or 76ers hooked up while Wilt was on the team,the team's success's came from the other 4 postions for the Celts. Wilt usually kept Bill pretty much in check on both ends so it fell upon Bill's teammates to do the deed.</div> so bill russell being the only constant on the celtics 11 titles were coincedental? i'm not saying wilt did not keep bill in check on the celtics offensive end, thats a given, bill was never a great offensive player. but on the defensive end, bill didn't let wilt do what he did against the rest of the league. he made wilt work harder than any other player did, he altered a lot of wilt's shots like no other player at that time could do. I know the other celtics played a HUGE part in the teams success, as they had to carry much of the offensive load, and they played great defense as a team. But bill led the way. I'm not saying bill is the better player of the two, because i think wilt is the second best player ever behind MJ. But what i am saying is, he had barely any competition, when he grabbed rebounds, people literally ran away from him. But when he was given competition by bill, he was not able to dominate it the way MJ was. He was able to put up really good and impressive numbers against bill, but was not dominate enough to will or lead his team to a victory like MJ.
