Kobe Bryant... Now I know why he wants to leave the Lakers, no matter what he does people are still going to say, "he needs to do it without Shaq." BS! All Shaq would do before Kobe became a great player was get swept, even when he had the best guard in the league and a talented team in Orlando, even when he had one of the 3 most talented Laker teams in history. I have heard people say you could put 3 or 4 SG's in Kobe's place and they still would have won 3 in a row, BS! Iverson has the best chance, Paul Pierce has an outside chance, but after that it's nobody, why? Because all those dudes are clutch preformers, Shaq needs a clutch player to get the big baskets because he can't, because his free throw shooting discourages teammates and probably even himself. Kobe is the one beating teams when it counts, Shaq won't beat you... No doubt about it, Bryant should be in Jordan's class...
I guess u didn't see the +/- per 48 stat they put up for shaq during the game... +8 when shaq is on the floor, -20 something when he's not... i would say kobe needs shaq more than shaq needs kobe. Kobe might be able to carry the team down the stretch, but shaq puts them in position to win games. Look when the piston's took the lead last night (when shaq was on the bench). Look when the lakers came back (when shaq came in w/ about 3:30 left to play).
To win Shaq absolutely needs Kobe, Shaq could put them in position to win the games that's fine, but he isn't going to win them without Kobe. Besides I'm not using just 1 game, the only time Shaq has ever been the bigger impact player was on their 1st championship run, ever since then Kobe has been the man.
::eye roll:: to say that Kobe Bryant deserves more respect is absolutely ridiculous the kid gets all respect in the world...nobody says that Kobe is underrated...he has the respect of everyone in the NBA organization...he has the respect of the people in the LA orginization...he has the respect from his teammates...he has the respect of all other 28 teams in the league AND from its players...he also has the respect of every basketball fan around the world....Kobe is great...he's awesome...he's clutch....he gets it done...he's a GREAT basketball player...i personally respect Kobe at an extremely high level...even though i hate the Lakers and he continues to hurt teams that i want to win...you can't deny Kobe's game...but to say he deserves more respect is dumb he gets all of it but lets just get something straight NO ONE will even be in a class with Michael Jeffrey Jordan...EVER!
Kobe does do alot for his team but he can't do it alone. You think he won that game last night on his own? He did alot but he didn't do it all. His team played great defense in overtime to help win the game. Kobe just sent them there. If anyone deserves more respect it's Malone. He got hurt but refused to quit he really wanted to win this game and helped tremendously.
<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"> If anyone deserves more respect it's Malone.</div> hahahha how did malone help again?? was it his amazing 7 points? his great lack of defense and allowing rasheed to kill him? please tell me <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post"></div>
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Team Steven 01:</div><div class="quote_post">hahahha how did malone help again?? was it his amazing 7 points? his great lack of defense and allowing rasheed to kill him? please tell me</div> The Old man played his heart out and played beyond his limits. Does his stats matter that much? You seen he was hurt.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting ice ice BIBBY:</div><div class="quote_post">::eye roll:: to say that Kobe Bryant deserves more respect is absolutely ridiculous the kid gets all respect in the world...nobody says that Kobe is underrated...he has the respect of everyone in the NBA organization...he has the respect of the people in the LA orginization...he has the respect from his teammates...he has the respect of all other 28 teams in the league AND from its players...he also has the respect of every basketball fan around the world....Kobe is great...he's awesome...he's clutch....he gets it done...he's a GREAT basketball player...i personally respect Kobe at an extremely high level...even though i hate the Lakers and he continues to hurt teams that i want to win...you can't deny Kobe's game...but to say he deserves more respect is dumb he gets all of it but lets just get something straight NO ONE will even be in a class with Michael Jeffrey Jordan...EVER!</div> Yeah he does get respect from them, but again, there's always that line that he has to do it without Shaq, that line never fails to rear itself into every Bryant conversation. He doesn't get all of the respect, Shaq gets most of it 95% of the time, Kobe is basically Scottie Pippen in the eyes of most, when he's really the Jordan of the Lakers. That's why I see no problem with Kobe wanting to leave the Lakers when his situation is like that, he deserves better, not silly notions like there are 3-5 other SG's that would win as much as he does with Shaq. The guy's the best player in the league, yet most don't consider him the best player on his own team, that's not respect. Jordan isn't God, someone will be in his class and create another class above him... Just a matter of time... My bet is on Kobe... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting TimFlem:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe does do alot for his team but he can't do it alone. You think he won that game last night on his own? He did alot but he didn't do it all. His team played great defense in overtime to help win the game. Kobe just sent them there. If anyone deserves more respect it's Malone. He got hurt but refused to quit he really wanted to win this game and helped tremendously.</div> He doesn't deserve more respect on last night's game alone, he's done enough before that to deserve more respect, my point is that despite a game like that people will still knock him down a notch because he plays with Shaq.
SO basicly this thread was made because made a 3 point shot that sent them in overtime then played a hell of a game then. WOW what good thinking man
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">To win Shaq absolutely needs Kobe, Shaq could put them in position to win the games that's fine, but he isn't going to win them without Kobe. Besides I'm not using just 1 game, the only time Shaq has ever been the bigger impact player was on their 1st championship run, ever since then Kobe has been the man.</div> And kobe isn't gonna have the opportunity to win games without shaq putting them in that position. And it's probably true that shaq could win it with another all-star 2 guard who isn't afraid to take shots down the stretch. And the +/- stat disparity is so big, to say shaq isn't the difference is ridiculous. The difference is about 30 points with and without shaq. Don't forget what happened when Kobe tried to carry the team by himself last year, the lakers were HORRIBLE. It was not until they got shaq back until they were even a playoff contender last year. Does shaq need kobe? Absolutely. But kobe benefits from shaq more than shaq benefits from kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TimFlem:</div><div class="quote_post">The Old man played his heart out and played beyond his limits. Does his stats matter that much? You seen he was hurt.</div> From a coach's point of view, every minute Malone is in the game is simply hurting the team. Don't give me this glorified "oh my god he's hurt and he plays anyway" crap. This is why I freaking HATE Doc Rivers as a commentator. Nobody in their right mind should risk a championship (and really, that's what it is if they had lost game 2, at least historically) over an old, subpar player's ego. I have no problem with saying that stuff about say.. MJ with a high fever and dropping 40, or even Willis Reed. But nobody in their right mind would credit Reed for the Knicks' win. That was all Frazier. Similarly Malone is a liability now and it amazes me that Jackson can't sit him (and Payton for that matter) considering how ineffective they are. Malone was a good defender, a good scorer, rebounder, whatever. He isn't anything anymore. Putting him in is just giving Rasheed Wallace points.
Kobe is getting enough respect. He's arguably the best player in the NBA. I think you got a little too caught up in the moment of last night game. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">No doubt about it, Bryant should be in Jordan's class...</div> You’re kidding? Right?
About the whole Kobe needs Shaq, Shaq needs Kobe thing. I believe that they each need eachother equally. Because, if you think about it, what did Shaq do until he came to LA? Nothing, he got swept. And, when Shaq isn't in the game or when he's injured, what do the Lakers do? Well, just look at last season. Started off what, like, 5-16 with just Kobe trying to do it all. I think that right there shows that they each need eachother an equal amount.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting TimFlem:</div><div class="quote_post">SO basicly this thread was made because made a 3 point shot that sent them in overtime then played a hell of a game then. WOW what good thinking man</div> I said he doesn't deserve more respect on last night's game alone, he's done enough before last night to deserve more... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">And kobe isn't gonna have the opportunity to win games without shaq putting them in that position. And it's probably true that shaq could win it with another all-star 2 guard who isn't afraid to take shots down the stretch. And the +/- stat disparity is so big, to say shaq isn't the difference is ridiculous. The difference is about 30 points with and without shaq. Don't forget what happened when Kobe tried to carry the team by himself last year, the lakers were HORRIBLE. It was not until they got shaq back until they were even a playoff contender last year. Does shaq need kobe? Absolutely. But kobe benefits from shaq more than shaq benefits from kobe.</div> Taking shots down the stretch and making them isn't the same, the only 2 other than Kobe that I could see taking and making them are Iverson and maybe Paul Pierce. The difference in +/- from Shaq and Kobe was not over 30 points, you don't even remember the exact figures do you? All that benefiting talk is bogus as well, Shaq could score 30 without Kobe, Kobe could score 30 without Shaq, neither benefit in terms of their own game, however, in terms of winning or losing, Shaq benefits more from Kobe. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting Avery:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is getting enough respect. He's arguably the best player in the NBA. I think you got a little too caught up in the moment of last night game. You?re kidding? Right?</div> Tell someone he's the best player in the NBA, expect to hear, "well he plays with Shaq"... No I'm not... Once his career is over the debate will be a lot stronger on Kobe's side...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post"> Taking shots down the stretch and making them isn't the same, the only 2 other than Kobe that I could see taking and making them are Iverson and maybe Paul Pierce. The difference in +/- from Shaq and Kobe was not over 30 points, you don't even remember the exact figures do you? All that benefiting talk is bogus as well, Shaq could score 30 without Kobe, Kobe could score 30 without Shaq, neither benefit in terms of their own game, however, in terms of winning or losing, Shaq benefits more from Kobe. </div> I do not know the exact difference, but what does it matter... I remember for sure with shaq on the floor, they are a +8, and without it, i believe it was a -24 or a -26, or something like that. Take the difference of the two and its it is over 30 points. And the records speak for themselves... Kobe without shaq, dating back to the 2000 season is below .500. Shaq without kobe dating back to the same period is above .700. Kobe is not the only clutch player in the nba. Cassell hits big shots down the stretch, bibby hits big shots down the stretch as well. Give me a solid 2 guard and cassell or bibby and the lakers would still be able to pull it off. And as far as he's the best player in the league... i'll put im up there with the best of the best, but i'd still take Duncan or KG before i took kobe.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">I do not know the exact difference, but what does it matter... I remember for sure with shaq on the floor, they are a +8, and without it, i believe it was a -24 or a -26, or something like that. Take the difference of the two and its it is over 30 points. And the records speak for themselves... Kobe without shaq, dating back to the 2000 season is below .500. Shaq without kobe dating back to the same period is above .700. Kobe is not the only clutch player in the nba. Cassell hits big shots down the stretch, bibby hits big shots down the stretch as well. Give me a solid 2 guard and cassell or bibby and the lakers would still be able to pull it off. And as far as he's the best player in the league... i'll put im up there with the best of the best, but i'd still take Duncan or KG before i took kobe.</div> Difference is, a guy like McGrady can take a bunch of clutch shots, but he won't make more than Kobe, Iverson, or Pierce. -24+8= a 16 point loss, I'm not exactly sure if that's what ABC's stat went by, but that's how it looks. Bryant isn't the only clutch player but those 2 aren't close to him in terms of clutch play, and are worlds apart in terms of talent, the only guys that compare are Iverson and Pierce. I'd take Duncan over Bryant too, not because he's better though, he's more dominant...
Kobe is a great player, and I feel he gets the respect he deserves... As far as that other stuff you guys are arguing, the lakers won .700+ of their games without Shaq this season....but u know what? This is the playoffs now, Kobe doesn't just need Shaq, he needs Shaq + another role player. Shaq needs Kobe + another role player. Just Shaq & Kobe is no longer enough, let alone just Kobe (or Shaq).
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post"> -24+8= a 16 point loss, I'm not exactly sure if that's what ABC's stat went by, but that's how it looks. </div> -24+8 is not a difference, its a sum... -24-8 is the difference, which equates to a -32 point difference when shaq is not on the floor, compared to when he is. <div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant isn't the only clutch player but those 2 aren't close to him in terms of clutch play, and are worlds apart in terms of talent, the only guys that compare are Iverson and Pierce.</div> thats why i said give me a solid 2 guard and either one of the two players i mentioned. cassell and bibby have been just as clutch as kobe in recent years... cassell has been clutch throughout his whole career actually, he's been hitting big shots since kobe was a teenager
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting notMuchgame:</div><div class="quote_post">Kobe is a great player, and I feel he gets the respect he deserves... As far as that other stuff you guys are arguing, the lakers won .700+ of their games without Shaq this season....but u know what? This is the playoffs now, Kobe doesn't just need Shaq, he needs Shaq + another role player. Shaq needs Kobe + another role player. Just Shaq & Kobe is no longer enough, let alone just Kobe (or Shaq).</div> Fair enough... I agree with the second part, not the first though... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">-24+8 is not a difference, its a sum... -24-8 is the difference, which equates to a -32 point difference when shaq is not on the floor, compared to when he is.</div> Call me dumb if you want, but this is the way I understand that +/- statistic, when Shaq was on the bench the Lakers were -24, when Shaq was on the floor the Lakers were +8. That stat is probably Shaq's +/- throughout the whole playoffs, not just last night's game... <div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">thats why i said give me a solid 2 guard and either one of the two players i mentioned. cassell and bibby have been just as clutch as kobe in recent years... cassell has been clutch throughout his whole career actually, he's been hitting big shots since kobe was a teenager</div> Well, it's Bryant and a solid PG in Fisher, or Cassell/Bibby and a solid SG? That's not even a contest, I don't see them winning nearly as much, more so when the rest of Bryant's game.
