i think that both kobe and shaq need each other just as much. face it, kobe's not like jordan at all, he's shellfish and tries to attack the double teams(which was what jordan did pre-championship runs). kobe needs shaq to give the ball to so he doesn't get double teamed. on the other hand, shaq needs someone that is clutch, i'll give kobe props he can make the big shot(i still hate his ass). shaq will never be able to take the ball when the games on the line because he can't hit his free throws. so they both need each other.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">I never said he couldnt win w/out a Pippen, but you can't say he HAD to have Pippen either. You can't sit here and say w/out Pippen, you are 100% sure Jordan wouldn't have won. I can say and be 100% sure when i say, without Shaq, Kobe would have nothing. No one said Bulls would drop off the face of the earth when jordan retired, if Pippen was soooooooo capable, then he woulda taken them to at least the conference finals, and not take himself out of games (a la kobe bryant on several instances this season). Big deal, he got near mvp, theres a reason why he didn't win it, because he didnt deserve it because he didn't prove anything. Peja was a MVP candidate this year, and had the kings not fallen off, he would have been the runner-up in mvp. But theres a reason why he didn't and would not have won, because he can't carry a team like Olajuwon and Garnett. And don't use that "Oh, because it's Jordan" stuff, every accolade jordan ever recieved, he deserved, he actually deserves more than he got. I did say ONE GAME in my previous post, and thats what i mean, ONE GAME... not a few minutes... ONE GAME. Pippen left EARLY in the first quarter, and returned in the fourth quarter (can't remember exactly when he came back in the fourth)... But even when he did come back, the Jazz didn't even guard him, and he didn't do much on the other end of the floor either... And i don't think anyone wants to compare Kobe's few minutes vs indy against one of the greatest NBA Finals performances ever. If you think Jordan can only play good help defense, then you're sadly mistaken. You're gonna take ONE play that highlighted his career and say that's what makes him? It's hard to make first defensive team every year if you are only a good help defender, especially at the guard position. You don't win defensive player of the year by being a good help defender at the guard position... At the center or PF position, maybe, because it leads to blocks... But as a guard, NO! And without Rodman on that team, Chicago may not have even won vs Utah with malone in his prime. Who did Pippen guard? Hornacek? Russell? Yea, theres a HUGE defensive assignment. If you wanna say this series shows kobe's value, then it should also say something about him as a player and how he wasn't able to carry the team and follow up on his words... If you asked Lakers management what one player they could have for next season, and next season only, they would all probably say shaq... The reason they want to keep Kobe is for the long haul. And your eyes are letting you see only what you wanna see, if you wanna call what they did to Kobe "double teaming" then so be it, but if thats what ur gonna call a double, then they're doing the same to shaq. No one is "running at" kobe when he gets the ball... They're only showing when he drives with the ball, but even then, they rarely ever fully came over to a forceful double team. And that was the same thing they did with shaq.</div> Nothing is 100% sure, but we can say that Jordan won nothing without Pippen, and Shaq won nothing without Bryant, those are absolute facts. Without an All-Star guard Shaq wouldn't have anything, without the best guard in the league Shaq never even made the Finals, he had the best with Penny and with Kobe. Pippen took himself out of games? I remember one, Bryant did it to make a point, doesn't excuse him though. What exactly did you want him to prove during the REGULAR season? Remember playoffs have nothing to do with the MVP award... Who carried that Bulls team then? Horace Grant? BJ Armstrong? The Jordan hype machine was powerful man, carrying a team to 55 wins by himself would have fueled that machine even more. Pippen almost played 30 minutes, give or take a couple of minutes, but I know it was more than the max 24 minutes you remember he played. For the minutes he played he had a solid game as well, something like 10-5-2-2... It compares in the way that both played great, one played memorable, without their tag team partner, you made the point that Jordan did it without Pippen, well Bryant did it without Shaq. Jordan's thing stands out by itself with or without Pippen's back... That was just an example of his specialty, I think he was a better help defender than one on one defender, doesn't mean I thought he was a bad one on one defender. That play, the block on a Ewing jump shot that I'm sure everyone has seen highlights of, countless steals on post doubles, countless forced turnovers on traps, I thought he stood out on help defense. It's not like Rodman was stopping Malone, he still scored tons of points, and Pippen guarded Malone at times during the Finals. He had the worst series of his career, made worse by the fact that his supporting cast was weak, Shaq on the other hand had a good series, but it didn't make as much of an impact as Bryant's bad series. It's what Bryant wants in LA right now, if he doesn't want Jackson anymore, which would be a mistake, he won't be there, if he doesn't want Shaq he won't be there. Dude it was obvious that they didn't want Bryant to get on track, Prince's defense was fine on the perimeter, that's the only reason they never doubled until he penetrated.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Nothing is 100% sure, but we can say that Jordan won nothing without Pippen, and Shaq won nothing without Bryant, those are absolute facts. Without an All-Star guard Shaq wouldn't have anything, without the best guard in the league Shaq never even made the Finals, he had the best with Penny and with Kobe. Pippen took himself out of games? I remember one, Bryant did it to make a point, doesn't excuse him though. What exactly did you want him to prove during the REGULAR season? Remember playoffs have nothing to do with the MVP award... Who carried that Bulls team then? Horace Grant? BJ Armstrong? The Jordan hype machine was powerful man, carrying a team to 55 wins by himself would have fueled that machine even more. Pippen almost played 30 minutes, give or take a couple of minutes, but I know it was more than the max 24 minutes you remember he played. For the minutes he played he had a solid game as well, something like 10-5-2-2... It compares in the way that both played great, one played memorable, without their tag team partner, you made the point that Jordan did it without Pippen, well Bryant did it without Shaq. Jordan's thing stands out by itself with or without Pippen's back... That was just an example of his specialty, I think he was a better help defender than one on one defender, doesn't mean I thought he was a bad one on one defender. That play, the block on a Ewing jump shot that I'm sure everyone has seen highlights of, countless steals on post doubles, countless forced turnovers on traps, I thought he stood out on help defense. It's not like Rodman was stopping Malone, he still scored tons of points, and Pippen guarded Malone at times during the Finals. He had the worst series of his career, made worse by the fact that his supporting cast was weak, Shaq on the other hand had a good series, but it didn't make as much of an impact as Bryant's bad series. It's what Bryant wants in LA right now, if he doesn't want Jackson anymore, which would be a mistake, he won't be there, if he doesn't want Shaq he won't be there. Dude it was obvious that they didn't want Bryant to get on track, Prince's defense was fine on the perimeter, that's the only reason they never doubled until he penetrated.</div> Regardless of how many games you take yourself out of, or when you take games off, it doesn't matter... Especially under the circumstances that they decided to take games off... Kobe picked, what at the time was, the worst game to pick and nothing justifies it. And if you believe that doesn't make it justifiable, then don't try to justify it by saying he was trying to make a point. Yes, pippen was the best player when jordan left, but he still proved nothing, and thats the whole point. He was never able to carry a team to the promise land, just like Kobe has not been able to do. You keep going back to the question of "Why do you have to prove yourself on your own team?" Do you realize how ridiculous that question is? Barkley is not mentioned with the "elites" because he could never prove himself w/ his own team... Same goes w/ Ewing... But when it all comes down to it, they were both damn good players... Both of whom are better than Pippen if you ask me. They just werent fortunate enough to play w/ the best player ever. If you gave Jordan either barkley or ewing instead of Pippen, the chances of them winning the title would be higher than the lakers chances of winning the title with their so-called "fab four". If you think Rodman did not do a good job on malone, then you must have forgotten the series... He didn't shut him down like tayshaun did, but he contained him, much like what the piston's did to shaq. That was a huge factor in the bulls success vs utah. And if you think pippen played any factor in stopping malone, you are out of your mind... He may have got switched off on him on a few possessions, but he was never given the assignment to guard malone, malone woulda eaten him up harder than the few possessions williamson ate up kobe when they got switched up. So because he had a bad series, and they lost, it makes him even greater, and means he deserves more respect? Riiiiiiiight.... Shaq had a good series and because they "let" him have a good series, it wasn't much of an impact? If kobe stopped trying to take matters in to his own hands and got the ball to shaq in game 3, they most likely win, and who knows what happens from there. Kobe could have had a great series if he woulda played it right. Had he fed shaq enough to the point where shaq was scoring on virtually every possession, do you honestly believe detroit would continue to let shaq go one on one w/ their defenders? Shaq opening up the game for Kobe has made kobe who he is throughout his career, the one time he tries to take matters in his own hands, the result is failure. And you're telling everyone that we should all give more respect to him for it?
and actually jiggax...they did ask lakers management who they'd rather keep...and they all said kobe...kobes poor performance had a lot more to do with the inability of his other 3 teammates on the floor to take and make open shots to stretch the defense...its pretty hard to feed shaq (1. because he hardly ever works hard enough to establish good position at the right times but we wont get into that) and 2. when you've got rasheed standing in front of him and ben wallace behind him for half the game...
like i said, they say they wanna keep kobe because it would be more beneficial in the long haul, but if u were to ask GMs around the league who they would rather have for next year, and next year only, i bet u majority would take shaq. the inability of the other players on the floor can also be related back to kobe... if you aren't involved in the game much, and all of a sudden ur asked to just start being the offense, most players cant adjust that quickly. and with good ball movement, theres no way they cant get the ball to shaq. instead of just running down and trying to dump it to him, try moving the ball around a bit, it will eventually get to him.
defenses dont really shift when the guys who are moving the ball around can't shoot...or drive...or do much of anything for that matter...hell they couldnt even pass the ball to eachother half the time...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Regardless of how many games you take yourself out of, or when you take games off, it doesn't matter... Especially under the circumstances that they decided to take games off... Kobe picked, what at the time was, the worst game to pick and nothing justifies it. And if you believe that doesn't make it justifiable, then don't try to justify it by saying he was trying to make a point. Yes, pippen was the best player when jordan left, but he still proved nothing, and thats the whole point. He was never able to carry a team to the promise land, just like Kobe has not been able to do. You keep going back to the question of "Why do you have to prove yourself on your own team?" Do you realize how ridiculous that question is? Barkley is not mentioned with the "elites" because he could never prove himself w/ his own team... Same goes w/ Ewing... But when it all comes down to it, they were both damn good players... Both of whom are better than Pippen if you ask me. They just werent fortunate enough to play w/ the best player ever. If you gave Jordan either barkley or ewing instead of Pippen, the chances of them winning the title would be higher than the lakers chances of winning the title with their so-called "fab four". If you think Rodman did not do a good job on malone, then you must have forgotten the series... He didn't shut him down like tayshaun did, but he contained him, much like what the piston's did to shaq. That was a huge factor in the bulls success vs utah. And if you think pippen played any factor in stopping malone, you are out of your mind... He may have got switched off on him on a few possessions, but he was never given the assignment to guard malone, malone woulda eaten him up harder than the few possessions williamson ate up kobe when they got switched up. So because he had a bad series, and they lost, it makes him even greater, and means he deserves more respect? Riiiiiiiight.... Shaq had a good series and because they "let" him have a good series, it wasn't much of an impact? If kobe stopped trying to take matters in to his own hands and got the ball to shaq in game 3, they most likely win, and who knows what happens from there. Kobe could have had a great series if he woulda played it right. Had he fed shaq enough to the point where shaq was scoring on virtually every possession, do you honestly believe detroit would continue to let shaq go one on one w/ their defenders? Shaq opening up the game for Kobe has made kobe who he is throughout his career, the one time he tries to take matters in his own hands, the result is failure. And you're telling everyone that we should all give more respect to him for it?</div> You said games, not game... He sure made up for it against Portland... Again, what was he supposed to prove? Was he supposed to win a championship? He took that team as far as it could go... That question is not ridiculous, because Shaq and Jordan never proved themselves without Bryant or Pippen, so why do Bryant and Pippen have to do it? The no defense playing Barkely? I doubt it, Ewing would have some rings though... I say Rodman wasn't stopping Malone so that means I thought he didn't do a good job against him? They didn't just lose, they were embarrassed! Hell no it wasn't much of an impact, they were embarrassed! They lose game 3 by 20, giving Shaq more touches wouldn't have mattered, game 4 is a different story, but Shaq was never much of a clutch preformer. Could he have been one that night? We'll never know. Shaq does not have the energy to score on almost every possession, using him too much on offense takes away from his defense and rebounding even more than he usually does on his own. Shaq would eventually miss, and him using all his energy on offense takes away from his defense and rebounding, the only 2 aspects of his game that can still create real impacts. No Bryant has made Bryant who he is, and he's taken matters into his own hands plenty, and this is the first time he failed. Against San Antonio just this season, every championship run, but the first, he has always been MVP of the Western Conference Playoffs before he lets Shaq abuse the Least.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">You said games, not game... He sure made up for it against Portland... Again, what was he supposed to prove? Was he supposed to win a championship? He took that team as far as it could go... That question is not ridiculous, because Shaq and Jordan never proved themselves without Bryant or Pippen, so why do Bryant and Pippen have to do it? The no defense playing Barkely? I doubt it, Ewing would have some rings though... I say Rodman wasn't stopping Malone so that means I thought he didn't do a good job against him? They didn't just lose, they were embarrassed! Hell no it wasn't much of an impact, they were embarrassed! They lose game 3 by 20, giving Shaq more touches wouldn't have mattered, game 4 is a different story, but Shaq was never much of a clutch preformer. Could he have been one that night? We'll never know. Shaq does not have the energy to score on almost every possession, using him too much on offense takes away from his defense and rebounding even more than he usually does on his own. Shaq would eventually miss, and him using all his energy on offense takes away from his defense and rebounding, the only 2 aspects of his game that can still create real impacts. No Bryant has made Bryant who he is, and he's taken matters into his own hands plenty, and this is the first time he failed. Against San Antonio just this season, every championship run, but the first, he has always been MVP of the Western Conference Playoffs before he lets Shaq abuse the Least.</div> I said games because i was referring to kobe, not only pippen, and kobe has taken off more than one game, and he's done it multiple times in these playoffs. Sure he tried to turn it on later in the game, but fact remains, he slacked off during halves, and that's just as good as a game, because you should not take off ANY time. How is it not ridiculous to ask someone to prove something? If you can't prove something, why should anyone believe it? If pythagorean never proved his theorm, would we be using it today? Come on now, sit down and listen to what you are saying. Jordan and Shaq never proved anything w/out Pippen and Kobe? Come on now, they put raws teams on their back and took them as far they could go and pushed them to their limits. Pippen and Kobe has yet to do that (don't say Pippen did it, like i've said numerous times, he had a team who was already a proven winner to start with). If Jordan didn't play in '93, theres no doubt chuck woulda had a ring... He didn't win MVP by mistake. You don't win MVP because all you provide to your team is offense. And you're talking about one of the greatest rebounders and hardest workers on the glass ever. You can also add malone and payton to the list of players who would have won a ring had it not been for MJ. Why would you state that rodman wasn't stopping malone cuz malone still scored a ton of points on him if you weren't implying rodman didn't do a good job on him? My bad on the game 3 statement, was thinking of the wrong game at the time, i meant game 4. And if you think shaq doesn't have much of an impact, you must not have heard the +/- on him. He doesn't need to do anything on defense, his presence in the paint alone is HUGE. He keeps people out, whether he intends to or not. People dont take the ball to the hoop when shaq is in the game. And you can't blame the whole pick and roll defense thing on him, lakers as team can't play pick and roll defense. If you honestly think shaq had nothing to do w/ making kobe who he is then you need to open your eyes. Kobe gets so many opportunities on the court because of shaq. They double shaq, kobe gets an open shot. Kobe drives the lane, he gets a clear path once he beats his defender because shaq's man can't leave him to come double. I'm not saying kobe's whole game was developed by shaq, you still need to have the skill and talent to knock down the shots and get past ur defender, but with that hand in ur face every shot, and a center trying to block ur shot every time u get in to the key, kobe would not be as effective offensively as he has been throughout his career. He might have a few more ppg, but his FG% would most likely take a dip to the 41-42% range. And if shaq only decides to show up to play for the finals as you claim, then so be it. Because when he asserts himself in the finals and is able to get the ball, they win. Kobe tried to be the guy this time, and what was the result? 3 wins short of a title and a disasterous run. And you STILL want to give him more respect? This is the biggest stage to play on, he fails because he tries to take matters in to his own hands, and here you are, sitting here complaining about how this guy doesn't get enough respect?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">I said games because i was referring to kobe, not only pippen, and kobe has taken off more than one game, and he's done it multiple times in these playoffs. Sure he tried to turn it on later in the game, but fact remains, he slacked off during halves, and that's just as good as a game, because you should not take off ANY time. How is it not ridiculous to ask someone to prove something? If you can't prove something, why should anyone believe it? If pythagorean never proved his theorm, would we be using it today? Come on now, sit down and listen to what you are saying. Jordan and Shaq never proved anything w/out Pippen and Kobe? Come on now, they put raws teams on their back and took them as far they could go and pushed them to their limits. Pippen and Kobe has yet to do that (don't say Pippen did it, like i've said numerous times, he had a team who was already a proven winner to start with). If Jordan didn't play in '93, theres no doubt chuck woulda had a ring... He didn't win MVP by mistake. You don't win MVP because all you provide to your team is offense. And you're talking about one of the greatest rebounders and hardest workers on the glass ever. You can also add malone and payton to the list of players who would have won a ring had it not been for MJ. Why would you state that rodman wasn't stopping malone cuz malone still scored a ton of points on him if you weren't implying rodman didn't do a good job on him? My bad on the game 3 statement, was thinking of the wrong game at the time, i meant game 4. And if you think shaq doesn't have much of an impact, you must not have heard the +/- on him. He doesn't need to do anything on defense, his presence in the paint alone is HUGE. He keeps people out, whether he intends to or not. People dont take the ball to the hoop when shaq is in the game. And you can't blame the whole pick and roll defense thing on him, lakers as team can't play pick and roll defense. If you honestly think shaq had nothing to do w/ making kobe who he is then you need to open your eyes. Kobe gets so many opportunities on the court because of shaq. They double shaq, kobe gets an open shot. Kobe drives the lane, he gets a clear path once he beats his defender because shaq's man can't leave him to come double. I'm not saying kobe's whole game was developed by shaq, you still need to have the skill and talent to knock down the shots and get past ur defender, but with that hand in ur face every shot, and a center trying to block ur shot every time u get in to the key, kobe would not be as effective offensively as he has been throughout his career. He might have a few more ppg, but his FG% would most likely take a dip to the 41-42% range. And if shaq only decides to show up to play for the finals as you claim, then so be it. Because when he asserts himself in the finals and is able to get the ball, they win. Kobe tried to be the guy this time, and what was the result? 3 wins short of a title and a disasterous run. And you STILL want to give him more respect? This is the biggest stage to play on, he fails because he tries to take matters in to his own hands, and here you are, sitting here complaining about how this guy doesn't get enough respect?</div> It's ridiculous because it can be asked of Pippen and Kobe but not of Jordan and Shaq. It's ok that the Bulls sucked without Pippen, it's ok that the Bulls didn't win a championship until Pippen was one step away from being great, it's ok that the Magic did nothing until Penny was the best guard in the NBA, and it's ok that the Lakers didn't win the championship until Bryant was the best guard in the NBA. So if Jordan and Shaq never proved anything without Pippen and Bryant why should I believe that they could? What raw teams did Jordan put on his back? What raw teams did Shaq put on his back? Both 3 peat Bulls team were stacked with talent, basically the same team that were championship contenders without him. Shaq's Magic teams always underachieved, they were favored against the Rockets and were still swept, swept every season Shaq was with them. Shaq's Lakers teams, pre All NBA Bryant, were extremely talented as well, but always ended their seasons as his Magic teams did, in sweeps. I won't dispute that they would have had rings if Jordan were out of the league, but they would have had them if Pippen wasn't in the league as well. I don't mean to imply anything, if I did... my bad. Shaq could have helped a whole lot more on pick and roll defense, he's the key to stopping the abuse the Lakers take on pick and rolls. Bryant made himself during offseasons, putting in work during the time Shaq is on vacation eating everything in sight. Why did Malone and Bryant get along well? Because Malone was the only guy that worked as hard as Bryant. You could say he would help his fg% like that, or you could say Bryant would drive a lot more if Shaq wasn't cloggin the lane all the time, closer shots, higher fg%. Francis went through the same thing this season, too many jump shots, because Van Gundy decided to clog the lane and discourage pentration, thus the decrease in fg%. They would of beaten the Least if Bryant would have taken over as well, he's the MVP when they get past the real competition in the West, then he lets Shaq dominate the East. Kobe Bryant didn't lose this years Finals, the Lakers did, Shaq wasn't going to dominate the Pistons like he dominated the Sixers, Pacers, and Nets. He did what he could, played the worse series of his career, and the Lakers had the worst series of the Phil Jackson era. I've already said that he deserves more respect from what he did before this season, and the impact his horrible play had was a lot greater than the impact Shaq's good play had.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">It's ridiculous because it can be asked of Pippen and Kobe but not of Jordan and Shaq. It's ok that the Bulls sucked without Pippen, it's ok that the Bulls didn't win a championship until Pippen was one step away from being great, it's ok that the Magic did nothing until Penny was the best guard in the NBA, and it's ok that the Lakers didn't win the championship until Bryant was the best guard in the NBA. So if Jordan and Shaq never proved anything without Pippen and Bryant why should I believe that they could? What raw teams did Jordan put on his back? What raw teams did Shaq put on his back? Both 3 peat Bulls team were stacked with talent, basically the same team that were championship contenders without him. Shaq's Magic teams always underachieved, they were favored against the Rockets and were still swept, swept every season Shaq was with them. Shaq's Lakers teams, pre All NBA Bryant, were extremely talented as well, but always ended their seasons as his Magic teams did, in sweeps. I won't dispute that they would have had rings if Jordan were out of the league, but they would have had them if Pippen wasn't in the league as well. I don't mean to imply anything, if I did... my bad. Shaq could have helped a whole lot more on pick and roll defense, he's the key to stopping the abuse the Lakers take on pick and rolls. Bryant made himself during offseasons, putting in work during the time Shaq is on vacation eating everything in sight. Why did Malone and Bryant get along well? Because Malone was the only guy that worked as hard as Bryant. You could say he would help his fg% like that, or you could say Bryant would drive a lot more if Shaq wasn't cloggin the lane all the time, closer shots, higher fg%. Francis went through the same thing this season, too many jump shots, because Van Gundy decided to clog the lane and discourage pentration, thus the decrease in fg%. They would of beaten the Least if Bryant would have taken over as well, he's the MVP when they get past the real competition in the West, then he lets Shaq dominate the East. Kobe Bryant didn't lose this years Finals, the Lakers did, Shaq wasn't going to dominate the Pistons like he dominated the Sixers, Pacers, and Nets. He did what he could, played the worse series of his career, and the Lakers had the worst series of the Phil Jackson era. I've already said that he deserves more respect from what he did before this season, and the impact his horrible play had was a lot greater than the impact Shaq's good play had.</div> Jordan and shaq both started out their careers as the building block of their repsective teams, teams that hadn't won, and were still raw. Kobe and Pippen joined teams that were already playoff contenders. Penny was never the best PG in the nba. Stockton was always better than penny, although penny was an amazing player in his day. Some say he was the best, but again, he is a perfect example of what the effect that the greats such as shaq and jordan had on their teammates, more specifically, how shaq and jordan can make their teammates look better than they are. As soon as shaq departed from Orlando, they went down the drain. They made the playoffs the next year, lost in the first round, and that was pretty much it for them. Jordan on the other hand took over a team that had the 2nd worst record in the nba the prior year, like when shaq joined orlando, and took them to the playoffs in his first season. I never said shaq and jordan couldnt do it with their sidekicks, every team needs a 1-2 punch. Without kobe, shaq could still have won it with another top notch all-star guard, just as jordan could have done it without pippen had he had another top notch all-star SF. If you wanna refute this, then go ahead, you can say they didn't do it, so i can't say that, but i can just as easily sit here and say you can't prove they wouldn't have done it. But from what has gone on on the court, the most vital pieces of each team were jordan and shaq. Like i said in my last post, i'm not implying that kobe is who he is because shaq completely made him. But in terms of what he has achieved, a lot of it has to do w/ the fact that he played alongside shaq. Just because kobe might be able to get to the rack more, doesnt mean he's gonna have a higher FG%. Without shaq, people would be coming over to double team him way more, and he would have about 3 people trying to block his shot. I did not see any series in any of the last years western conference playoffs where kobe was the sole reason why they won. When you play in the west, you need a total team effort. Kobe did not dominate any more opponents for any numbers games more than shaq did. Both of them shined when it was their time. But it was not kobe alone. Shaq was actually the one who helped the lakers get past SA. He asserted himself the most in game 3, laid it all out, they get the victory, and go on to win the series. After game 3, kobe was the one who shined, as he had 3 strong outings the rest of the series, but had it not been for shaq's effort in game 3, they probably dont face minnesota the next round. We've both said all along that winning and losing is based on the team rather than one individual, i never said it was only kobes fault the lakers lost, but he played a big part in it because of what is expected of him. But yes, the lakers lost as a team, and blame could be put on shaq because he is part of the team, but he is the least of reasons why the lakers lost.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">Jordan and shaq both started out their careers as the building block of their repsective teams, teams that hadn't won, and were still raw. Kobe and Pippen joined teams that were already playoff contenders. Penny was never the best PG in the nba. Stockton was always better than penny, although penny was an amazing player in his day. Some say he was the best, but again, he is a perfect example of what the effect that the greats such as shaq and jordan had on their teammates, more specifically, how shaq and jordan can make their teammates look better than they are. As soon as shaq departed from Orlando, they went down the drain. They made the playoffs the next year, lost in the first round, and that was pretty much it for them. Jordan on the other hand took over a team that had the 2nd worst record in the nba the prior year, like when shaq joined orlando, and took them to the playoffs in his first season. I never said shaq and jordan couldnt do it with their sidekicks, every team needs a 1-2 punch. Without kobe, shaq could still have won it with another top notch all-star guard, just as jordan could have done it without pippen had he had another top notch all-star SF. If you wanna refute this, then go ahead, you can say they didn't do it, so i can't say that, but i can just as easily sit here and say you can't prove they wouldn't have done it. But from what has gone on on the court, the most vital pieces of each team were jordan and shaq. I did not see any series in any of the last years western conference playoffs where kobe was the sole reason why they won. When you play in the west, you need a total team effort. Kobe did not dominate any more opponents for any numbers games more than shaq did. Both of them shined when it was their time. But it was not kobe alone. Shaq was actually the one who helped the lakers get past SA. He asserted himself the most in game 3, laid it all out, they get the victory, and go on to win the series. After game 3, kobe was the one who shined, as he had 3 strong outings the rest of the series, but had it not been for shaq's effort in game 3, they probably dont face minnesota the next round. We've both said all along that winning and losing is based on the team rather than one individual, i never said it was only kobes fault the lakers lost, but he played a big part in it because of what is expected of him. But yes, the lakers lost as a team, and blame could be put on shaq because he is part of the team, but he is the least of reasons why the lakers lost.</div> Penny was not only the best PG in the NBA, he was the best guard during the season that the Magic made the Finals. Had he stayed at PG and not chased that silly dream that he could average 40 points a game at SG, he could of ended up as a Hall of Fame point guard. John Stockton was great, but I've heard him described as the guy that made the pass on a play, not the playmaker. The Magic were never under .500 without Shaq and with the always injured Penny, and they missed the playoffs only once, the season he played only 15 games. They weren't nearly as good as they were with Shaq, but they didn't fall apart even when Penny was missing games left and right, major talent on that team. Shaq didn't take the Magic to the playoffs until Penny joined the Magic... Jordan did much the same way Paul Pierce took the Celtics to the playoffs this season... Bryant wasn't ever the sole reason they would win, I said he would of gotten MVP during the western conference playoffs, besides last year they lost in the 2nd round. Well during game 3 Shaq asserted himself on defense and basically dominated on defense...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Chinkboi:</div><div class="quote_post">Well, it would make sense if it said Rapists... not rapers.</div> I thought he meant to say Rappers...
I agree, Penny may have and probably was the best PG that one season, but to say he was better than stockton is far fetched. Penny was only really good for about 2 seasons, maybe 3. But again, what did that team do when shaq left? More specifically, what did Penny do? He went from consecutive all-nba first teams, to an all-nba third team, and that was it. And when did the downfall occur? When shaq left. Again, the Magic were never below .500 without shaq, but they still had a team that had a foundation that was built while shaq was there. But did they ever make it nearly as far in the playoffs without shaq than with him? No one really cares who is the best player in the conference playoffs... the only thing that matters in the playoffs is who performs in the finals. Shaq did it in the 3 years they won it, kobe had the opportunity to do it this year, and failed to capitalize on it. If you can get through the western conference playoffs w/o shaq playing, and then just have him dominate the competition in the finals, then so be it. I'd much rather have that than a guy who can get u to the finals, but once he gets there, can't get u the hardware.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">I agree, Penny may have and probably was the best PG that one season, but to say he was better than stockton is far fetched. Penny was only really good for about 2 seasons, maybe 3. But again, what did that team do when shaq left? More specifically, what did Penny do? He went from consecutive all-nba first teams, to an all-nba third team, and that was it. And when did the downfall occur? When shaq left. Again, the Magic were never below .500 without shaq, but they still had a team that had a foundation that was built while shaq was there. But did they ever make it nearly as far in the playoffs without shaq than with him? No one really cares who is the best player in the conference playoffs... the only thing that matters in the playoffs is who performs in the finals. Shaq did it in the 3 years they won it, kobe had the opportunity to do it this year, and failed to capitalize on it. If you can get through the western conference playoffs w/o shaq playing, and then just have him dominate the competition in the finals, then so be it. I'd much rather have that than a guy who can get u to the finals, but once he gets there, can't get u the hardware.</div> It did as much as it could and it didn't fall apart... A lot of Penny's decline had to do with his injuries and his obsession with the 2 spot... The Western Conference Finals were always considered the NBA Finals for the past few years, even this year... In the Finals they didn't need Bryant to play great, they needed him to do his thing but not take over because Shaq was enough against those teams, he wasn't nearly enough against the Spurs, Kings, Blazers... This year was the only year Bryant HAD to be the man in the Finals because Shaq wasn't going to beat the Pistons, Brown understood that and focused the Piston defense on Bryant...
The Western Conference Finals being considered the NBA finals the past few years was a misconception, and that was proved this year. The reason the Spurs, Kings, and Blazers losing to the lakers all those years is because they didn't have an answer for shaq or kobe. But shaq was the one who dominated those teams in the paint. Kobe would still get his, but teams like the Kings were able to match his offense with their high octane style offense. But when they dumped the ball in to shaq, no one had an answer. Bryant had to be the man, wasn't the man, so what is the point of this thread now? He's not gonna get any more respect from anyone for not being the man when he had to be the man like you claim. Can't compare him to jordan, cuz when jordan had to be the man, he was the man. With that said, this thread is pretty much done?
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">The Western Conference Finals being considered the NBA finals the past few years was a misconception, and that was proved this year. The reason the Spurs, Kings, and Blazers losing to the lakers all those years is because they didn't have an answer for shaq or kobe. But shaq was the one who dominated those teams in the paint. Kobe would still get his, but teams like the Kings were able to match his offense with their high octane style offense. But when they dumped the ball in to shaq, no one had an answer. Bryant had to be the man, wasn't the man, so what is the point of this thread now? He's not gonna get any more respect from anyone for not being the man when he had to be the man like you claim. Can't compare him to jordan, cuz when jordan had to be the man, he was the man. With that said, this thread is pretty much done?</div> Misconception? The Sixers, Pacers, Nets didn't have a chance against the Lakers or Spurs and the Lakers were 5-1 favorites against the Pistons. They didn't have answers for Bryant in the clutch, Shaq hardly ever got it done in the clutch, that's why Bryant would be the one getting them through the West. In the Finals they didn't really need much clutch play because they were simply too good for the East, the Blazers, Kings, and Spurs would of been too good for the East during those 3 years as well. This is like my tenth time saying this, this thread has nothing to do with this year, Bryant has done enough before these Finals to deserve more. He had to be because Shaq wasn't beating the Pistons, Kobe could have...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting olskoolFunktitude:</div><div class="quote_post"> </div>horrible pic. I really don't believe Kobe's a Rapist. And i also thanks thats a horrible joke.
