<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Misconception? The Sixers, Pacers, Nets didn't have a chance against the Lakers or Spurs and the Lakers were 5-1 favorites against the Pistons. They didn't have answers for Bryant in the clutch, Shaq hardly ever got it done in the clutch, that's why Bryant would be the one getting them through the West. In the Finals they didn't really need much clutch play because they were simply too good for the East, the Blazers, Kings, and Spurs would of been too good for the East during those 3 years as well. This is like my tenth time saying this, this thread has nothing to do with this year, Bryant has done enough before these Finals to deserve more. He had to be because Shaq wasn't beating the Pistons, Kobe could have...</div> Kobe always had the ball in the clutch, that is true, but, you cannot say Shaq never got it done in the clutch because he never got the ball in the clutch. Fish would pass the ball to Kobe and he would go 1 on 1 with his defender. Kobe is to much of a hog to know that sometimes Shaq has had the better game and deserves the ball in the clutch. Which is why Shaq supposively doesnt preform in the clutch. This thread has everything to do with this year, you cannot say he deserves more respect for what he did in previous years, he is losing respect for how he played THIS year. Kobe played with no heart in the finals and that's why they lost. Shaq is the one who deserves more respect and some more touches.
Shaq doesn't preform in the clutch because he isn't a cluth player, period. The guy's horrible free throw shooting does not encourage teams to take a chance on him over guards. Why wasn't he clutch in Orlando? Or in LA before Bryant took on a tag team role with him? I'd think he'd lose it if he played badly and the Lakers still won... No heart? What makes you say that? He played his ass off and failed, he didn't go out as a wallflower, he went out shooting and trying to take the team on his shoulders because it was obvious that Shaq wasn't going to do it anymore.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Misconception? The Sixers, Pacers, Nets didn't have a chance against the Lakers or Spurs and the Lakers were 5-1 favorites against the Pistons. They didn't have answers for Bryant in the clutch, Shaq hardly ever got it done in the clutch, that's why Bryant would be the one getting them through the West. In the Finals they didn't really need much clutch play because they were simply too good for the East, the Blazers, Kings, and Spurs would of been too good for the East during those 3 years as well. This is like my tenth time saying this, this thread has nothing to do with this year, Bryant has done enough before these Finals to deserve more. He had to be because Shaq wasn't beating the Pistons, Kobe could have...</div> like you've been saying all along, u can't prove it cuz the situation never happened... therefore, we'll just leave it as a misconception (even though i too believed the WCF was the finals, but this year changed things). No one has answers for anyone in the clutch, what happens late in the games happens... But to be put in that position, someone has to carry them and take them there, which was always shaq. Kobe has had several opportunities to prove his worth w/out shaq. He had the perfect chance to do it last year when shaq was out for the first 15-20 games. What did he do? He had them next to the clippers in the western conference standings. He didn't prove anything except that he couldn't carry a team. Yea, he might be the most clutch player in the league, but cassell is just as clutch, but can't do anything if he didn't have a player like KG to put him in that situation to make a big shot. How could kobe have beaten the pistons? Didn't he just have his opportunity just a few days ago? He couldn't have beat the pistons, shaq couldn't have beat the pistons, the lakers couldn't have beat the pistons.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting RocketLaunch:</div><div class="quote_post">Shaq doesn't preform in the clutch because he isn't a cluth player, period. The guy's horrible free throw shooting does not encourage teams to take a chance on him over guards. Why wasn't he clutch in Orlando? Or in LA before Bryant took on a tag team role with him? I'd think he'd lose it if he played badly and the Lakers still won... No heart? What makes you say that? He played his ass off and failed, he didn't go out as a wallflower, he went out shooting and trying to take the team on his shoulders because it was obvious that Shaq wasn't going to do it anymore.</div> Shaq doesn't preform in the clutch because Kobe is to selfish to give him the ball in crunch time because he is afraid Shaq will do something good and get all the attention. Kobe has no heart and I back that comment up. Kobe played his butt off and failed, that may be true, but he also failed at taking the team on his shoulders. Kobe played terribly and was again, too selfish to feed the ball to Shaq who was playing better. Kobe just kept shooting, and since he was playing so badly, the Lakers LOST.
Shaq playing the way he did plus playing some defense, and Bryant playing on offense like the best guard in the NBA should, could of beat the Pistons, he didn't they... Bryant doesn't want Shaq to preform in the clutch? You could read minds now? Shaq gets all the attention, all the most dominant player in the NBA junk talk, all the nobody can stop him junk talk, all that despite being a decent clutch player. Nobody's afraid of Shaq in the clutch, nobody, that's why he's always had guards to do most of the work in the 4th, from Penny, to Van Exel and Jones, to Kobe. Shaq does not have the stamina to preform night in and night out, play after play, he can't be fed every single play like everyone seems to think he can. He can't even play defense or rebound play after play, he might play great one night but it's going to take him a few days to recharge. During those times Bryant had to step up, but he couldn't do much against that Piston defense, so yeah they lost because of him, he had to play well to beat them and he didn't.
I haven't had time to read all the pages of replies to this thread yet, but someone early on said something to the effect that Shaq needed kobe and vice versa. Well it's important to realize that there are more people who can provide what kobe does, stat wise, but there really isn't another Shaq (unless you're talking FTs, then hihihi big ben wallace, hehe). In either case, kobe needs to re-learn his fundamentals and that the team is everything. Stop trying for the highlight reel.
Kobe: ...but I tried sir, I sw- Arnold: I don't wanna hear it Kobe...now like I was saying... ^^^ the respect kobe deserves
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Startellis:</div><div class="quote_post">horrible pic. I really don't believe Kobe's a Rapist. And i also thanks thats a horrible joke.</div>
I don't think alot of you understand just why the Lakers lost. Detroit did have great defense, but the main reason wasn't Kobe's shooting. His problem actually lies on the triangle offense. For Pistons and Lakers fans who actually watch the games closely...and for any basketball players that play competitively...did you see any double screens in the series between the Lakers and Pistons? The triangle offense relies on screens and their big man...but these two free up Kobe to either cut to the hoop in two different directions, or to take a mid-range jumper, wide open. Well, I didn't see the double screens set by Malone and George...nor did I see Payton lead the defense to the opposite side of the court after passing the ball in to Shaq to start the offensive set. The Lakers put the game into Kobe's hands, almost completely in his hands...whether there were 2 seconds left on the shot clock, or if he was double teamed, triple teamed...whatever. Not even the Chicago Bulls did that to MJ...they would pass the ball to him, but then move around and try to free him up or free themselves up for open shots. All I saw in the series was Kobe with the ball, and every other Laker standing around watching him. Blame Payton and Malone for not playing the triangle correctly...and for thinking that Kobe can score everytime with Prince, Hamilton and Wallace closing in on him defensively all together. Also, Shaq really disappointed me this series...actually, this year. He can score all he wants...sure...but a 30 point game doesn't make up for his poor defense as of late. His feet, at the most, got 3 inches off the ground when he was playing defense. He didn't jump for boards unless the Pistons were undermatched...if Okur was in instead of Wallace, Shaq doesn't really have to jump. What about when Billups and Hamilton drove the paint? Shaq was right there...looking up at the rim, not moving...but what happened to the Shaq I used to watch? The one 3 or 4 years ago that would block everyone's shot? The one before then...that brought down the whole goal with a dunk? He's getting old...and he needs to face the fact that he's not going to take the Lakers where he wants anymore...and that Kobe has been underrated for quite some time now. It's Kobe's turn to take the spotlight...and for people to realize that Shaq was just a big guy...nothing else. You put Shaq 10 feet away from the basket, and all you get is a blank crosseyed stare. He can't dribble, can't shoot, has no speed, can't protect the ball when he's that far from the rim, and he can't even make free throws. Putting him that far from the rim makes him as valuable as Horace Grant was this year for the Lakers...so overall, Shaq is far from being the best player in the NBA. Kobe, on the other hand, gave it his all this year (like he does every single year), and even with the trial, the disputes with Shaq, and having to deal with Payton, and avoiding the media and drama from the fans...he still pulled through and had the best performances and clutch shots. Someone...anyone...prove me wrong.
Bryant deserves alot more respect this man is like pippen before jordan retired for the first time u see spots of brillance but the tru star has not been shown yet now wit shaq on the brink of leavin u will see the tru kobe hw is not the next jordan but he will pan oout to be jordans equal kobe does everythin right except he takes riduculous shots he will learn to stop that but as i said kobe needs much more respect
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jetlee6509:</div><div class="quote_post">Bryant deserves alot more respect this man is like pippen before jordan retired for the first time u see spots of brillance but the tru star has not been shown yet now wit shaq on the brink of leavin u will see the tru kobe hw is not the next jordan but he will pan oout to be jordans equal kobe does everythin right except he takes riduculous shots he will learn to stop that but as i said kobe needs much more respect</div> pippen could not win a title w/out jordan, so if you're implying kobe will not win any titles w/out the likes of shaq, then i agree w/ you. ill respect him more when he can carry himself on AND off the court like jordan. but he has not shown he is capable of doing so.
you say off the court like jordan was some kind of saint... he had to bury his dad because of his gambling debt... he cheated on his wife countless times... and just like shaq never own a title without kobe, and kobe never won a title without shaq, pippen never won a title without jordan...but jordan never won a title without pippen either, so i dont really see where you are taking this argument...
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post">you say off the court like jordan was some kind of saint... he had to bury his dad because of his gambling debt... he cheated on his wife countless times...</div> I knew he cheated on his wife a few times too, and even knew about his gambling problems.. but did his dad's death really have anything to do with that? I thought it was a random car jacking and some kids killed him. <div class="quote_poster">Quoting SCBrian:</div><div class="quote_post">and just like shaq never own a title without kobe, and kobe never won a title without shaq, pippen never won a title without jordan...but jordan never won a title without pippen either, so i dont really see where you are taking this argument...</div> That's exactly what I've been saying for months now. You're right, it's dumb to say "Kobe never won without Shaq," even Jordan couldn't do it alone. The only player who has really "done it alone" that I can remember is Tim Duncan. Even he had a lot of support, with a great bench and supporting cast. Championships aren't supposed to be won alone.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Phreeze:</div><div class="quote_post"> The only player who has really "done it alone" that I can remember is Tim Duncan. Even he had a lot of support, with a great bench and supporting cast. Championships aren't supposed to be won alone.</div> He didn't really do it alone he had somebody by the name of David on his team, you can argue about his second championship but the first one had a David adding quality contributions. There weren't really players who did it alone, maybe Wilt on his sixers back in the day.
Why is this thread still going? But, anyways, if you look at it, no one has ever really won a title by himself. Kobe had Shaq and likewise, MJ and Pippen and likewise, Duncan had Robinson and than he had a good supporting cast the second time through. Go further down the line. Hakeem had Horry and Cassell, Magic had Kareem, Worthy and others. So, in actuality, no one has ever won it alone. Cause, if you want to really go there, you can't win a title with only one good player. It does help if you have superstars, but, you need other players surround that superstar(s) to help him along the way and back him up when it's not going good for him. You need a supporting cast. That's the most important thing. You can have a huge star and go nowhere. Just look at Orlando with TMac. Perfect example right there. But, to go there, I think he had a descent cast of players, he just didn't utilze them, but, this isn't the thread for that so I'll leave it alone. But, once again, to reiterate, no one has ever really won it alone. They've always had help. That's just the point I'm trying to get across here.
yes, but the chances of shaq winning w/ the next best 2 guard, or jordan winning w/ the next best SF at the time are substantially higher than the chances of kobe winning w/ the next best center, or pippen winning w/ the next best SG. People who say Pippen was the reason why the bulls won are just haters, and people who say kobe is the reason for the lakers winning are ignorant. Jordan was the greatest ever, period. Shaq has been the most dominant thing since... People here are arguing kobe should get more respect... it's more like you people who are saying that need to respect what shaq has done for the laker organization... he wanted to keep something special there, but it was kobe who tore everything apart, that can not be disputed.
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting jiggax23:</div><div class="quote_post">yes, but the chances of shaq winning w/ the next best 2 guard, or jordan winning w/ the next best SF at the time are substantially higher than the chances of kobe winning w/ the next best center</div> Bryant and Duncan...Shaq and McGrady...who'd win the title first? I'm going with Bryant and Duncan.
i think he needs respect from more people at their homes talking shit about how kobe is a selfish cry-baby......look at shaq, at least kobe is gone already and we are persueing him to comeback, shaq is there and hes demandind a trade, if shaq was in the same situation as kobe he would be doing the same exact thing, saying only if kobe is gone he'll be back. and the team does ride on kobes shoulders, if they dont win kobe gets blamed, even if he scores 30 , 10, 5. then shaq has something like 14, 17, 2 shooting 1-17 from the line. shaq free=throws are like a joke, no one takes them seriously, they always just joke about it and then its fine. bull"""" shaq sucks at basketball he is just a big fat thing that does a babyhook or backs in takes one dribble then drop steps to take a dunk. kobe is the second best player that ever lived, next year he might be the best player ever.....
<div class="quote_poster">Quoting KareemTheRush:</div><div class="quote_post"> kobe is the second best player that ever lived, next year he might be the best player ever.....</div> Or he might show that he is neither without another star on his team and drop down on that list. He defenitly is not the second greatest player that "ever" lived, and you have to make an argument about where he is today. Ill take KG anyday over Kobe.
